Well, this is … interesting. So JohnTheOther has plopped out another rambling diatribe about evil feminists. This time he accuses them not only of “attacking male sexuality” but also (if I’m reading him correctly) of being a bunch of evil homophobes jealous that some men don’t want to have sex with women. You read this and tell me what you think he’s implying here:
Male sexuality is of course both demonized and treated as a form of predation, but also strictly limited to a narrow set of acceptable expressions. Outside of sexual identities which place men in positions to benefit women as sexual gate-keepers, masculine sexuality is generally condemned.
JTO would love to compare these alleged gay-man-hating feminists to the proudly gay-male-affirming Men’s Rights Movement. There’s just one problem: As even JTO has to force himself to admit, there are more than a few homophobic dudes lurking around in the Men’s Rights movement. As JTO acknowledges:
[T]here is a thread of opinion with a growing currency among some MRAs which rejects the legitimacy of men whose self identity and sexuality is gay or bisexual, or I suppose, transsexual.
JTO doesn’t like this, and says so:
[There] are men (and women) whose sexuality, either chosen or not, doesn’t conform to an acceptable standard – and some within the MRM would demonize them. Gentlemen and ladies – this is nothing short of stupid.
At what point does who an individual finds sexually attractive diminish their value as a human? How is it that a man whose preference doesn’t include vagina becomes less of a man? Conversely, are we going to pretend the sexual preferences of our female colleagues matter in the context of partnership in the fight for the human rights of men and boys?
So: JohnTheOther has explicitly decided to speak up in favor of “the gay agenda.” (Yes, that’s the phrase he used.) And he’s even included lesbians in the deal – something allegedly pro-gay MRAs often have trouble doing – even though he sort of suggests at the end that he’s only willing to accept lesbians who are also MRAs.
But, hey, baby steps, right?
Well, John, if you really want to toss the homophobes out of the Men’s Rights movement, you’re going to have to start with A Voice for Men itself.
If you go to read JTO’s whole post over on AVFM, you’ll see a couple of “featured videos” in the sidebar from longtime AVFM friend and contributor Bernard Chapin. One of them bears the intriguing title “Feminist Professor Gloats Over Lesbian Chic.” The description, presumably written by AVFM head honcho Paul Elam, reads:
Bernard’s on a roll here with this one. And you will be rolling to [sic] as he delivers another thorough fisking, Inferno style.
Watch the video, here or there, or as much of it as you can stand. As you’ll see, it’s basically eight minutes of gratingly “humorous” lesbian bashing from good old Bern – whose preferred term for “lesbian,” incidentally, is “lesbobo.” (Evidently adding an extra “bo” to the old slur “lesbo” is hilarious.)
Chapin has produced more than 1200 videos; this is one of the two that AVFM has chosen to feature.
You want to stand up to homophobia, John? Take down that video. Apologize for hosting it. Apologize for featuring it. Demand that Chapin apologize for it — or kick him to the curb.
Meanwhile, AVFM is helping the guy behind the website Artistry Against Misandry publicize and raise money for an upcoming event; Elam himself says he’s already sent along a hundred dollars. Here are some examples of the sort of “artistry” that’s featured on the site:
This second graphic is not only homophobic but confused: Chaz Bono is a trans man, not a lesbian.
Speaking of transphobia, AAM also hosts several videos by “Creativebrother,” one of which is this not-hot transphobic mess:
John, I suggest you ask your boss at AVFM to get his money back from Artistry Against Misandry. Because, here’s the thing: if you actively support hate like this, people might just get the impression you’re a hate site.
EDITED TO ADD: In the comments, Elam proudly announces his own support of the “gay agenda” as well. Well, with 0.1% of it.
I don’t like most gay activists very much, and I oppose 99.9% of what passes as gay activism, but I don’t think it is very smart to forget that part of the reason they were led astray is because most “normal” men never gave them the dignity of being regarded as a man.
Forget gay marriage, forget bullying, forget AIDS: apparently the only real issue for gay men is evil feminist ladies calling them “fags” for not wanting to have sex with them.
Elam also has a most interesting explanation of homophobia, at least against gay men:
Gay men are bashed, when all is said and done, because they are not of utilitarian value to women, and because they are perceived as not having enough strength to be of utilitarian value to the elites.
Yeah, that’s probably it.
What about homophobia against lesbians? That’s easy: “lesbobos” are just naturally ugly and hilarious.
NWO, no one’s trying to take away your right to be a disgusting homophobe! We’re merely letting you know we’re personally repulsed by it! Don’t I have the right to find you repulsive?
Really, NWO’s homophobia would have more impact if he wasn’t also repulsed by:
-Women who are sexually appealing
-Women who aren’t sexually appealing
-Heterosexual anal and oral sex
-Heterosexual sex that a woman has too much of
-Heterosexual sex followed by having a baby
-Heterosexual sex followed by not having a baby
Not that I really want to know what kind of sex NWO feels comfortable with, I’m just saying, we haven’t found it yet.
Cliff, I’m thinking the kind of sex NWO is comfortable with is called rape here in realityland.
Honestly, I think NWO would also be disgusted by the physical reality of rape (not the violence, the touching another person), he just supports it politically.
Either Meyer is lying when she cites Wuthering Heights and has never read it or she read the cliff notes in highschool and completely mis-remembers the book. That is the only explanation for her thinking it’s a romance.
@Argenti Aertheri
“LBT — did AntZ have horribly transphobic lines too? I remember NWO having a real piece of shit about “twig and berries” but I think I missed AntZ’s transphobia.”
Another phobia? Another shaming tactic? Pumping onself full of hormones and adding or subtracting in a useless attempt at reorganizing one’s genitals seems almost surreal. Why it almost seems backwards to a rational person. I have a phobia, yet the person vainly attempting to reorganize their junk with surgery and artificial injections is running on all eight cylinders?
Noadi, the worst thing of it all — Meyer has an English degree from BYU. But she writes like a teenager and has a teenager’s attitudes about literature. I thought Wuthering Heights was romantic, too — when I was fourteen. Then I grew up.
@Cliff: Have we ever heard NWO’s statement about dolls?
@Noadi: I am a literature teacher. Many of my students think WUTHERING HEIGHTS is a romance. One student last year wanted to write her project on it being the most greatest best ROMANCE novel of all time. (I let her write on the book–I’m big on choice–but it was not too successful–literary analysis as teach it s really not about what is THE best book). think there’s a widespread cultural perception that WH is about “romance” and that is why it, and JANE GREY, are the two best selling/known/canonized books by the Brontes instead of their more feminist ones.
A good teacher will not teach it that way–but I can attest after 20 years of teaching that students have ideas about books they love that I am not going to shift (and maybe shouldn’t aspire to change).
Did you see the edition of WH that came out with a TWILIGHT cover?
I comfort myself that more people read WH than would have otherwise, and maybe some will go on to the other books.
RE: Argenti
Oh hell, no, I can’t remember where it was. Things move so fast here in boobland… someone here has stats, I’m sure, but I can’t even remember the article it first came up…
The milkslave’s definitely anti-vagina too. I think he’s only pro-jacking off angrily while thinking about how much he hates women.
Although now that I think about it, it’s possible to argue that today people don’t distinguish between GOTHIC romance and contemporary romance, and there are some GOTHIC conventions that, depending on how they are handled, can be extremely misogynistic……never been that much of a Gothic romance fan myself.
I’m particularly venemous about the Twilight series precisely because it pushes a toxic and abusive view of love and romance to the very audience who it will damage the most — young teens. They already have an unrealistic view of the world, but yeah, let’s tell them that when a guy sneaks to your house at night to watch you sleep or disables your car so you can’t get away from him that it means he really, really loves you. That plus all the religious propaganda makes me want to puke.
@Cliff Pervocracy
“NWO, no one’s trying to take away your right to be a disgusting homophobe!”
There’s that word again. A shaming tactic. Not towing the party line is hate speech? Luckily you progressives are always so tolerant of diversity. Well, as long as the diversity falls within the party’s doctrine. Do you ever think for yourself?
How about you, Holly? Do you find nuzzling up to someones ass in the morning to suck down a mouthful of nightsoil repulsive? I don’t wanna hear, “what ever floats your boat.” I wanna know what you personally feel about it.
cloudiah — I think your memory is correct, now that you mention it I remember someone trying to recruit someone and going basically “oh, we have nothing to offer you then” when the potential recruitee “revealed” his trans* ness — that was when I was lurking though and thus didn’t place that it was AntZ failing to recruit LBT.
Ithiliana — “Have we ever heard NWO’s statement about dolls?” — I, for one, am pretty sure I don’t want to know.
LBT — it’s fine, I vaguely remember that conversation now, and was definitely flipping your recruiter off before I knew who either of you were — the “oh, we have nothing to offer you then” part was somewhere between appalling and hilarious.
Shit play is a hard limit for me (something I’d never do), but I don’t think I’d ever be able to lavish a milliliter of the anger and protest against it that NWOslave does for gay people. I just… don’t think about it at all, and get on with my life? You know neither loving nor hating something is an option, right, NWO?
I had to skim rapidly over most of NWO’s post in this thread–not that any of it was new to me, but he manages to invest his warped prescriptiveness of what “gay sex” is (as usual, he totally avoids lesbians) with a stomach-wrenching, nausea-inducing, horrific distaste AND complete stone ignorance along with some specifics which in fact are NOT limited go same-sex activities (but which I am not going to list of ‘prove’)…….
The level of vitriolic intensity and hatred is horrifying.
In order to take the taste out of my mouth, I looked up and rewatched the Molly Ivins segment in THE DILDO DIARIES, and thought I’d share:
blitzgal: Ugh, I was trying to explain to SisterB why I find the Twilight thing so problematic (“He’s sneaking into her room. At night. Without telling her. And staring at her. THIS IS NOT OKAY!”) and her response was pretty much ‘it’s okay because he LURVES her!’ head.desk head.desk
MollyRen – For serious. I just go about my life not eating poo, politely declining anyone who asks me to eat poo, and that pretty much works out okay for me. I don’t get angry about the idea that someone, somewhere, might be eating poo.
The scary thing is… is Twilight pushing the agenda, or is it just taking advantage of what we culturally already think a “real” romance is?
You know, there is stuff that other people get off on that I don’t. Some stuff others get off on that squicks me out royally. And that’s fine! As long as everyone involved in consenting, why the fuck should I (or anyone else) care what other people do amongst themselves? Why do some people (NWO) seem to think it’s something that they should get to control?
NWO —
“I too would find that racist. Gay sex is what it is. There is no, it’s kinda the same, there’s no analogies, there’s no comparisons. So stop with the analogies because there are none.”
Analogy time! Two people, in the privacy of the bedroom, make out, making out leads to oral sex — wtf is the difference in either act depending on the genders of the partners? A blow job is a blow job is a blow job — you don’t want to give blow jobs, that’s fine, you don’t get to be repulsed by the mere idea of a man doing so unless he’s doing so in your line of sight (in which case I advice you note that that’s public indecency so get a room)
“Do you find the act of putting your mouth on someone’s ass as they take a shit repulsive? I do. Knock youself out if you want to, Argenti Aertheri. Am I a somethingphobe for stating I find that act repulsive?”
Yeah I’d rather not risk E. Coli personally, but if you’re cool with that risk, have fun. And/or what MollyRen said.
“By the way. On the previous thread…” — as soon as I find that, I’ll reply to it there, you could link me again to speed that up.
I’m new to the whole meme thing (I know I’m so not with it) so thought I’d try one.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phhr1/
This quote from NWOslave also takes the cake. I should HOPE you don’t want to fuck your brothers and dad, NWO, because THEY’RE RELATED TO YOU.
Oh, wait. I forgot that NWOslave thinks all gay sex = incest sex.
Dear Owly,
I realize that reading for comprehension is not exactly your thing, but the point of my comment was not that having distaste for homosexual sex makes you homophobic: it is that ranting and raving about it in public indicates that you are. Bringing up your distaste for homosexual sex is not at all appropriate in a discussion relevant to gay rights. It’s being an asshole, and being an asshole to homosexuals about homosexuality. This is what indicates that you are a homophobe.
Asshole.
@hellkell
“Cliff, I’m thinking the kind of sex NWO is comfortable with is called rape here in realityland.”
And now I’m a rapist as well. On this thread alone I’ve been accused of,
being comfortable as a rapist,
hating the sinner and the non-sinner just for good measure,
hate the sinner, BEAT THEM IN THE STREETS,
I have a special hatred for gay people,
I have a comically obtuse brand of hatred,
I’m disgusted by all sex,
I have violent, delusional anger,
I’m an angry whiner who blames external forces for my life because I’m too much of a coward to take responsibility for my decisions,
A bigot of course,
a disgusting homophobe,
I’m repulsed by these things as well
-Women who are sexually appealing
-Women who aren’t sexually appealing
-Heterosexual anal and oral sex
-Heterosexual sex that a woman has too much of
-Heterosexual sex followed by having a baby
-Heterosexual sex followed by not having a baby
I’m anti-vagina,
I pro-jacking off angrily while thinking about how much I hates women,
I have level of vitriolic intensity and hatred that is horrifying.
Why is it I’m moderated again, Dave? Something about me being personally mean to one of the favored one’s? How dare I?