Well, this is … interesting. So JohnTheOther has plopped out another rambling diatribe about evil feminists. This time he accuses them not only of “attacking male sexuality” but also (if I’m reading him correctly) of being a bunch of evil homophobes jealous that some men don’t want to have sex with women. You read this and tell me what you think he’s implying here:
Male sexuality is of course both demonized and treated as a form of predation, but also strictly limited to a narrow set of acceptable expressions. Outside of sexual identities which place men in positions to benefit women as sexual gate-keepers, masculine sexuality is generally condemned.
JTO would love to compare these alleged gay-man-hating feminists to the proudly gay-male-affirming Men’s Rights Movement. There’s just one problem: As even JTO has to force himself to admit, there are more than a few homophobic dudes lurking around in the Men’s Rights movement. As JTO acknowledges:
[T]here is a thread of opinion with a growing currency among some MRAs which rejects the legitimacy of men whose self identity and sexuality is gay or bisexual, or I suppose, transsexual.
JTO doesn’t like this, and says so:
[There] are men (and women) whose sexuality, either chosen or not, doesn’t conform to an acceptable standard – and some within the MRM would demonize them. Gentlemen and ladies – this is nothing short of stupid.
At what point does who an individual finds sexually attractive diminish their value as a human? How is it that a man whose preference doesn’t include vagina becomes less of a man? Conversely, are we going to pretend the sexual preferences of our female colleagues matter in the context of partnership in the fight for the human rights of men and boys?
So: JohnTheOther has explicitly decided to speak up in favor of “the gay agenda.” (Yes, that’s the phrase he used.) And he’s even included lesbians in the deal – something allegedly pro-gay MRAs often have trouble doing – even though he sort of suggests at the end that he’s only willing to accept lesbians who are also MRAs.
But, hey, baby steps, right?
Well, John, if you really want to toss the homophobes out of the Men’s Rights movement, you’re going to have to start with A Voice for Men itself.
If you go to read JTO’s whole post over on AVFM, you’ll see a couple of “featured videos” in the sidebar from longtime AVFM friend and contributor Bernard Chapin. One of them bears the intriguing title “Feminist Professor Gloats Over Lesbian Chic.” The description, presumably written by AVFM head honcho Paul Elam, reads:
Bernard’s on a roll here with this one. And you will be rolling to [sic] as he delivers another thorough fisking, Inferno style.
Watch the video, here or there, or as much of it as you can stand. As you’ll see, it’s basically eight minutes of gratingly “humorous” lesbian bashing from good old Bern – whose preferred term for “lesbian,” incidentally, is “lesbobo.” (Evidently adding an extra “bo” to the old slur “lesbo” is hilarious.)
Chapin has produced more than 1200 videos; this is one of the two that AVFM has chosen to feature.
You want to stand up to homophobia, John? Take down that video. Apologize for hosting it. Apologize for featuring it. Demand that Chapin apologize for it — or kick him to the curb.
Meanwhile, AVFM is helping the guy behind the website Artistry Against Misandry publicize and raise money for an upcoming event; Elam himself says he’s already sent along a hundred dollars. Here are some examples of the sort of “artistry” that’s featured on the site:
This second graphic is not only homophobic but confused: Chaz Bono is a trans man, not a lesbian.
Speaking of transphobia, AAM also hosts several videos by “Creativebrother,” one of which is this not-hot transphobic mess:
John, I suggest you ask your boss at AVFM to get his money back from Artistry Against Misandry. Because, here’s the thing: if you actively support hate like this, people might just get the impression you’re a hate site.
EDITED TO ADD: In the comments, Elam proudly announces his own support of the “gay agenda” as well. Well, with 0.1% of it.
I don’t like most gay activists very much, and I oppose 99.9% of what passes as gay activism, but I don’t think it is very smart to forget that part of the reason they were led astray is because most “normal” men never gave them the dignity of being regarded as a man.
Forget gay marriage, forget bullying, forget AIDS: apparently the only real issue for gay men is evil feminist ladies calling them “fags” for not wanting to have sex with them.
Elam also has a most interesting explanation of homophobia, at least against gay men:
Gay men are bashed, when all is said and done, because they are not of utilitarian value to women, and because they are perceived as not having enough strength to be of utilitarian value to the elites.
Yeah, that’s probably it.
What about homophobia against lesbians? That’s easy: “lesbobos” are just naturally ugly and hilarious.
“It would be nice though if you’d care what other people are doing for sexytimes, as long as it’s legal.”
whee for missing a word and inverting my meaning, I meant to say:
“It would be nice though if you’d stop caring what other people are doing for sexytimes, as long as it’s legal.” (Or maybe I was thinking “care less” and that’s wtf my brain did, idk)
Apparently NWO has become the art director for AVFM, judging by the picture for this post:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/lets-belittle-men/
Weirdly, neither of the male authors of that post is or has ever been employed as a boat-dragger.
“Gay men are bashed, when all is said and done, because they are not of utilitarian value to women, and because they are perceived as not having enough strength to be of utilitarian value to the elites.”
Yeah, cuz it’s women who like to beat up and kill gays.
@Noadi
“No, any woman who doesn’t like these things has a preference. Any woman who thinks no one should do these things and people who do shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else because of it, is a hater.”
Exactly. Do you find any of those acts repulsive? Gay’s and lesbians can knock themselves out. I am a homophobe for finding their actions repulsive.
I am being told that unless I find act X not repulsive I am a homophobe. My personal preference of finding a certain act repulsive, as can be seen by all the responses, is given a word meant to shame me. It’s not a word meant to praise me. Me, stating that I find an act repulsive is considered hate speech.
—————-
@David Futrelle
“NWO, if someone finds the thought of interracial sex “repulsive,” I would have no trouble describing that person as racist. (Of course, there are people who love interracial sex who are also racist, but that’s a whole other issue.)”
I too would find that racist. Gay sex is what it is. There is no, it’s kinda the same, there’s no analogies, there’s no comparisons. So stop with the analogies because there are none.
I find the though of a guy sticking his dick up another guys ass repulsive. I unfortunately recently heard the term shrimping, which is apparently trying to lick one’s own sperm out of another guys ass. Oddly enough I found that quite repulsive as well. I find the thought of two guys making out repulsive. I find the thought of two guys doing anything romantic, repulsive. I love my dad. I love my brothers, but I don’t want to fuck them or do anything remotely romantic with them. I find it repulsive.
By finding those acts repulsive, have I infringed on their rights? If I say I find it repulsive, have I infringed on their rights? So what right is this you speak of that I’ve infringed so horribly upon that I must be shamed. Why am I a homophobe? How can my personal taste be such a threat that it’s considered hate speech? If a gay want’s to say he finds sex between a man and a woman repulsive, knock yourself out.
The only hatred, is the hatred being directed at me for having an opinion differing from the party line. Correct? Ya see, I’m saying, I find it repulsive, but knock yourselves out. Your saying, I’m not allowed to say act X is repulsive, I’m a hater, a bigot, a homophobe. I’m not telling you what to think or say, but you sure are telling me.
There are plenty of homophobic women out there, and I do not doubt for a moment that some of them have been violent towards queer people (though my break is almost over so I have no time to search for links *blush blush*). Doesn’t mean Elam makes a lick of sense, though.
@Visceriaed
I would think that majority of gay targeted hate crimes are committed by men. But I don’t have links either ( I just pull stuff out of my ass ) so I may be wrong, though I doubt it.
Dear Owly,
Nobody gives a shit about what happens to your stomach when you think of gay sex but you. However, when you froth and rant about it in public, you pretty clearly show that you are a homophobe. If you don’t want to risk being seen as a homophobe or some other sort of bigot, don’t bring up your distaste for consensual acts between adults unless it’s part of a conversation in which your opinion is being solicited. By the way, there are no laws against saying you don’t like gay sex in the United States: if there were, you would be in prison. So what the fuck are you even going on about?
@ Visceria
Sorry I fucked up your name. iPhones suck.
And I’m not saying women aren’t capable of violence and hate, I just think it’s ridiculous to blame institutionalized homophobia on women alone. But then MRAs blame women for everything.
By the way, I have noticed gas prices getting a little bit high. When are All Men going to go to war to fix this? Pear-shaped, crying, bon-bon eating soccer moms have been crying in the streets.
I’m also curious as to why I have been skipped over for this draft thing that’s apparently still a challenge for males, according to r/mensrights. I haven’t heard anything.
@Sharculese
“that’s his escape hatch. he’s not saying you’re not allowed to be gay, youre just not allowed to complain when he threatens to beat you senseless for it.”
Have I threatened to beat a gay senseless? I’ve made zero threats. Yet here you are saying that’s what I do.
—————–
@Argenti Aertheri
“That’s the difference you’re missing here, you’re repulsed by other people engaging in legal, consensual acts.”
Do you find the act of putting your mouth on someone’s ass as they take a shit repulsive? I do. Knock youself out if you want to, Argenti Aertheri. Am I a somethingphobe for stating I find that act repulsive?
—————
“It would be nice though if you’d stop caring what other people are doing for sexytimes, as long as it’s legal.”
I couldn’t care less what anyone does during sexytime. Right up to the point where I’m told I must love your choice. If I find your choice repulsive, I’m a homophobe? A bigot? I engage in hatespeech? I’m not allowed to find your choice repulsive or I’m all these bad things?
Tell me whose the intolerant hater? Whose the bigot?
Re the latest AVfM link, more misuse of the CDC data (can I somehow make a career out of correcting the MRMs use of just this one study? they get it wrong so often)
“4.8% of American men claim they have been forced to penetrate someone else. That’s more than three times the number who have actually been raped according to the FBI’s “penetration” definition of rape.”
Yep, they got one right, sadly, it’s one for three.
“The 1 in 5 number for female victims in the CDC report also uses a definition of rape which conflates sexual harassment with sexual assault and rape, revealing a strong ideological bias.”
No it doesn’t — Completed forced penetration = 12.3%; Attempted forced penetration = 5.2%; Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration = 8%; Rape = 18.3% =/= date rape even, certainly not sexual harassment >.<
"While the CDC survey counts 1.3 million rapes of women in 2010, the total number of rapes and sexual assaults (of males and females combined) in the Justice Department survey was 188,380”. These two numbers are an entire order of magnitude apart."
Why I am not surprised the MRM can't figure out why the non-police reported rate would be higher than the official gov'n rate? Oh right, because they think victims should have to show the bloody bed sheets and the bruises (proof of virginity and proof of violence). There's the difference of substance between the two, and also probably one of definition, I would suspect the JD data is looking at illegal rape, not anything one would call being raped, eg what about the states where drug facilitated rape isn't explicitly illegal? And I highly doubt JD data included attempted rape.
So two wrong points, and the correct point that made to penetrate should be counted as rape. Well okay, take that up with the FBI not feminists though? Or whatever authority figures you have sway with. (ozymandias can I offer you virtual cookies for doing that?)
I think that one graphic is saying that Chaz Bono is uglier now because he looks like a man.
This is the kind of concept that the phrase “fractally wrong” was invented for.
@cliff
it’s hard to say because the shot is at an angle, but he does look fairly symmetrical
@Tulgey Logger
“Nobody gives a shit about what happens to your stomach when you think of gay sex but you. However, when you froth and rant about it in public, you pretty clearly show that you are a homophobe.”
There’s that word again. Homophobe. A word meant to shame me for my personal preference. Everyone of you states your personal preference. You don’t find that act repulsive. Are you shamed for your personal preference, for saying it? Why am I shamed for my preference.
How about you? Do you find the act of sucking down someones morning shit repulsive? It’s legal, right? Consenting adults and all that? Would you expect to be shamed for stating you personally find it repulsive? I expect the same common courtesy.
@Argenti Aertheri
By the way. On the previous thread I gave the official site of berkeley crime stats. I also gave the population site, official of course. Please convert the numbers into a 1 in 4 stat for me.
Dammit, why isn’t Chaz Bono working harder to be attractive to straight men? You’d think it’d be at the top of his to-do list.
I know that as a gay trans man, I am DEEPLY invested in being attractive to straight men. They are totally the demographic I want to sleep with. Uh huh.
Seriously, we played this game with Antz before. Remember? He tried to tell me how open the men’s movement was. Uh huh. I totally believe you all.
I can’t even call this lip service. It’s just laughable.
Also, I admit that I’m sorta tempted to put up our old pre-everything glamour shots, and then a pic of us now, because I KNOW it would get the same, “Cute—EWWWWW” response. Hell, one of the reasons I’ve been given that I shouldn’t medically transition is because I won’t be pretty anymore
What a shock, people! IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU.
@Argenti Aertheri
Oh and the lazy number that I came up with at berkeley considering there are 18,000 women there at any given year with an average of 12 reported sexual assaults. Which we’ll assume are all women complaints. All rapes. No false accusations. Is 1 in 750. I got that number assuming a 4 year degree. Since 1/4 of the population of women recycle every year, that’d give a population of 36,000 women going thru berkeley every 4 years with 48 reported incidents every 4 years.
36,000/48=750. So that’d be 1 in 750. The official stance of feminists is 1 in 4. I therefore divide 750 by 4 to get the exaggeration error. 750/4=187.5. As far as I can tell the number is exaggerated 187 X, or 18,750% higher than reality.
Like I said it’s a lazy number but I doubt if it’s far off, considering I gave concessions of it being a 100% female complaint, there were no false accusation, and it was rapes and not simply a stolen kiss or groping.
I find it’s best to do the math yourself rather than rely on the, “official,” numbers. Don’t you?
…why is Chaz Bono wearing green blue plaid shorts with a blue shirt? I don’t think that look would work on anyone… (I know that’s not the MRM issue, but just sayin’)
The poster? art?! is fractally wrong, yeah, but that look isn’t going to make anyone attractive.
LBT — did AntZ have horribly transphobic lines too? I remember NWO having a real piece of shit about “twig and berries” but I think I missed AntZ’s transphobia. (I believe you that he did, I guess I’m just curious if you happen to have a citation for that shit or not, if not, whatever)
The MRM should love the Twilight series. Edward is a stalker and one of the werewolves literally rips up his girlfriend’s face. Both men are portrayed as “good” by the series, and both women stay with them despite their abusive behavior. Also, Bella is vapid, devoid of personality, and willing to die for her husband and child, which pretty much describes the perfect woman as far as the MRM is concerned. The entire series is thinly veiled patriarchal propaganda.
@blitzgal
was it even thinly veiled? didn’t meyer pretty much come out and say that the whole thing was a love letter to the patriarchy?
@argenti
one time lbt challenged antz’s statement that the mrm was an inclusive movement by asking what they had to offer to gay and trans men, and antz took him literally and spent pages trying to recruit him in the most condescending manner possible
@Sharculese My memory is that Antz kept trying to recruit LBT until he realized that LBT was a trans man, and then Antz said that the MRM had nothing to offer him. Or words to that effect. My memory is for shit though, so I might be totally wrong.
AVfM hamsters of the day:
http://qkme.me/3phgya
http://qkme.me/3phgzu
http://qkme.me/3phh1a
I think Meyer likes to pretend it’s an old fashioned romance, like Wuthering Heights — a book cited in the series and by her in interviews. Of course, the fact that she thinks Wuthering Heights is a “romance” only points to her problematic ideas about the topic in general. Oh yeah, when you don’t get the woman you want, you destroy her ENTIRE FAMILY. Romantic!