So our dear friend Fidelbogen, self-declared Counter-Feminist Agent of Change and the wannabe philosopher-king of the Men’s Rights movement, has written an exceedingly dull and verbose post for A Voice for Men rehashing the whole Agent-Orange-RadFemHub-thing. Now, it’s a lovely, slightly too-hot Sunday afternoon here at Man Boobz headquarters, so naturally I didn’t do much more than lightly skim the whole thing. But I did notice this interesting little “argument” part way through.
Apparently Fidelbogen has concluded that it’s perfectly fine for critics of feminism to completely ignore the ideas of most feminists and focus only on the dogmas of the most radical of RadFems:
We should lay to rest the silly notion that such feminists as these are only “fringe radicals” or “extremists”, and that we mustn’t judge the entire movement by them. My question is, why shouldn’t we judge the entire movement by them? Compared to them, what do the moderate feminists really add up to? Anything much? What does a heap of feathers amount to, compared to a cannon ball? What really fuels feminism, anyway? Is it driven relentlessly forward by mellowness and grooviness — by fun, fluffy, happy feelings? Or does it run, let us say, on pure hate, pure spite, pure malevolence, pure malignancy? Well, you get the idea: darker emotions?
That weird choice of alternatives at the end is pretty much a textbook example of a “false dichotomy.” You would think that someone with a brain as big as Fidelbogen’s would be able to recognize and avoid such an elementary logical fallacy.
Fidelbogen continues:
Say what you will, but I am partial to the old maxim that happy people don’t make history. And which is more, I’ve got some experience with feminists; I have studied them, as chaps like me will do, and I have logged a few years in this trade. And I can attest that feminists are all alike. Monolithic, you might say. They vary in superficialities, but under all those sheathing layers lies the high-conductive cable core on which the feminist message travels. It is the same message every time. Every feminist I have ever personally encountered, or been informed of, differs from the radfems we are now studying only in the strength of the underlying signal. One way or another, let them veil it ever so artfully, the message never skips a beat: “Men are the problem. . . men are the problem . . . men are the problem.”
Dude, “projection” ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Clearly, women wanted the vote and access to contraceptives, jobs and an equal voice in court in order to better inflict pain and suffering upon MRAs.
Sad thing is, that those that end up being quoted on this blog actually appear to believe that.
Fidel”let them veil it ever so artfully”bogen – read way more Nietzsche than anyone ever needs to.
I would cringe and beg you to tell me that’s not really a thing, that some people don’t actually think that, but I know better.
“So let’s judge the MRM by Paul Elam and some of the more noxious dudes there. That’s fair, right?”
Actually, I think it is. I can’t think of any MRM site that would disagree with any of AVfM’s theories, actions or suggested actions.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that some of the *areas of concern” highlighted by AVfM deserve attention – it’s just that AVfM blame “feminism” for literally everything negatively affecting men/society. And, of course, their theories are so off the wall that they put off anyone other than MRAs from taking them seriously.
Meant to write *areas of concern* – that is, they list instances of men experiencing trauma – and these men should be assisted. Where it all goes tragically wrong is that AVfM blame the wrong people, advance the wrong theories and do it in a way that hunders and harms their own supporters.
If AVfM set up groups to help former prisoners who were abused, men hurt in the workplace, family members of those who were killed in the workplace, men/boys who are suicidal, male survivsors of abuse, then I would wholeheartedly support them.
But they don’t do any of these things. They theorize about how women control everything and want to wipe men out. And they get a limited amount of support. They know, I think, they they don’t have enough motivated members to get off of their computers and actually help real life people.
Well, yeah, when it’s “heads you’re a misandrist, tails, you’re also a misandrist” of course all feminists hate men. When women are thin and arbitrarily good looking, they’re taunting men. When they’re fat and plain by arbitrary standards, they’re torturing men with their hideous visage. /sarcasm
It occurs to me how self-centered a dude must be if he thinks that EVERY action that EVERY woman does is all about him.
Really guys, everything is not all about you. That’s kind of a big part of the fucking POINT of feminism. I’m sorry that that isn’t enough fluffy feathers and happy rainbows for you.
@Happy Yeah, I don’t think they want to help real people so much as they want to punish women. 🙁
@Jessay & Tulgey Yay!
p.s. You know how MRAs complain about men going to “debtor’s prisons” because they can’t pay child care, as though that kind of thing uniquely affects men? Poor men and women are both going to prison over debt:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ehrenreich-stealing-from-the-poor-20120517,0,7201749.story
Cloudiah: The only way a dude can go to prison for not paying child support is by being so in contempt of court that they can’t spend the time to tell the court “Hey I’m not making enough money for this”. That’s it. Being poor or unemployed is insufficient, because those laws explicitly require you to be willfully not paying, and an inability to pay is not willful.
But if you never actually bother informing the court, then you just look like you’re in contempt of court, and that you can go to jail for.
Obviously this guy doesn’t like the idea of equality so he characterizes Feminism as a hate movement. Can’t stop progress, man, so get over it because we’re not going back to the restrictive gender roles of the past.
@Rutee Yeah, I know they’re not telling the truth about child care. I guess my point is that if they really cared about the issue of people going to prison over debt they would look to where that was actually happening. (See article.)
If you visit the rationalization hamster meme and sort by newest, it seems the MRAs are fighting back! David, can you mobilize your lickspittle toadies? 😉
I think you can judge the value of a blogger or commenter by how often they utilize portmanteaus like “radfem”.
Did anyone see the movie PCU? Remember the Womynists? That’s what I picture when I see these guys describe feminists as they envision them. Remember the scene at the party when the frat guy walks up to them and offers to get them a beer? The lead Womaynist shouted “Pack up your rape culture and take a hike.”
But anyway. Yeah, we’re all alike. Except when, you know, we’re not. Sometimes when I read something by a RadFem, I can actually start agreeing with some stuff then bang. Here comes the transphobia and transhate. Here comes the PIV = rape. After that, I find that I can’t relate to them at all. Even when I agree with a few (few is the operative word) of their points.
Feminist aren’t driven by mellowness and grooviness. That’s the Mystery Machine
As this thread is fast devolving into a RATIONAL HAMSTER MEMEFEST, I shall comment only on the memes.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pdn1x/
Assumes quantifiable fact is inaccurate because statistics is MISANDRY!
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pdn0f/
I’d like to know what the solution suggested is
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p617e/
Poster obviously knows nothing about periods, because vaginas are icky
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p2gzc/
the Patriarchy is a system of socialization, not an organization that you can join. (Why is this soooooo hard for non feminists???)
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p3siz/
My favorite movie isn’t EPL, and I’ve got more commitment issues than most men I know.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pd3uf/
It’s female code for “knows (a) pop culture (b) technology (c) how to Google”
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p223h/
I don’t let my friend boy guy man dudes fight other guys for me, that’s just fucking stupid. I’ve had a dudefriend who wanted to fight for me, and I was like “It’s sweet because you’re trying to be worthy because you like this whole knight in shiny armor thing, but this whole night in shiny armor thing is dumb as fuck and I wish you’d drop it already.”
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pcye5/
Was Valerie Solanas even a feminist? I mean I know she wrote the one satire that angry dudebros get their bloomers in a bunch over, but I’d always assumed she wasn’t really an active feminist because I’ve never heard of her doing anything else….???
@Lady Zombie, yeah, I feel “Sorority Boys” is similar in that vein. The lead lady protagonist is a feminist who just needs to “loosen up” and there’s the trope that of course her sorority is more feminist leaning than the others because they’re the least popular and least “hot” of the sororities on campus.
Nevermind that they’ve got pretty much every right to think of the one (super popular) frat as little more than a pack of misogynist douchebags because they have a “dog catching” where they throw young ladies they deem “unworthy” (usually in terms of looks) out of their house, and catapult dildos into their sorority house living room.
You’d think if feminists had control of the media, they’d at least do a better job of portraying actual feminist ideals, rather than making being a feminist out to be some silly quirky phase that some unpopular college girls go through.
Well hey. Where’d we be without inane stereotypes?
[blockquote]It occurs to me how self-centered a dude must be if he thinks that EVERY action that EVERY woman does is all about him.[/blockquote]
This drives me crazy. More than once I’ve wanted to scream “No one actually cares about you enough to do that!” The problem is that it is a rather harsh message and could be support for the “feminists don’t care about men” argument.
But really. I don’t think most of us give enough of a damn about random strangers to spend time thinking of ways to torture or taunt them. Why bother? Most of us have enough going on with our own lives and problems.
Off topic, but interesting (maybe only to me) on how debt collectors — not feminists — are screwing poor men and women in ways that do sometimes land them in jail for debt.
NYT article on the “sewer service” practice mentioned in the LA Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/nyregion/31debt.html
and
@Lady Zombie, IKR? Like, that’s just feminists being sneaky. Or something.
@Naria, yeah, I suppose maybe it IS harsh if, like, you’re still a kid who hasn’t grown out of the “everything revolves around me phase” but learning that usually, you’re not that damn important IMHO is kind of part of growing up. That’s not even a gendered thing, that’s a maturity thing. I also think though the part where most people have lives to attend to that don’t involve making each one of their actions about total strangers who might be rage-bonering at them is another thing they have a hard time comprehending. Women have lives? Women have jobs, friends to hang out with and dogs of their own to walk? Preposterous! Everyone knows women’s lives consist solely of plotting and scheming on how to most effectively make men’s lives a living hell. /sarcasm
I don’t know about the rest of you all, but oh lord and lady was it a relief when I realized the vast majority of people around me didn’t care what I did (as long as I wasn’t visibly breaking the laws), and I could do a whole buncha stuff I wanted to (again, I drive the speed limit in Texas so I ain’t into breaking laws). WHEW.
Ithiliana, you must be the ONLY oerson in this state doing the speed limit. The rest are trying to annihilate it. 😉
Friend of mine was pulled over in Texas, back when 55 was still the limit.
The cop (who had appeared out of nowhere) said, “Son, did you know you were doing 85 miles an hour?
“You ain’t never gonna get nowhere driving like that.”
Got back in the patrol car and disappeared.