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No, women aren’t better than men. But the guys at A Voice for Men are doing their best to make it seem that way.

Putting women on pedestals: Not good feminism.

Roger Ebert recently wrote a well-intentioned but misguided faux-feminist blog post setting forth the thesis that “Women are better than men.” Here’s the gist of it, from his opening paragraph:

Women are nicer than men. There are exceptions. Most people of both sexes are probably fairly nice, given the nature of their upbringing and opportunities. But in terms of their lifelong natures, women are kinder, more empathetic, more generous. And the sooner more of them take positions of power, the better our chances as a species.

Here’s how to respond appropriately to this sort of argument, courtesy of Jill at Feministe:

I love me some Roger Ebert, but this is a big piece of crap. His point basically comes down to, “Women are nurturing and wonderful and non-violent, men are competitive and want to see boobs, because Evolution.” …  Most people are capable of great kindness; most people are capable of being total assholes. The degree to which any of us displays any of these traits depends largely on circumstance and partly on individual personality and temperament. Those things are certainly influenced by gender, but our gender does not in fact hard-wire us to be nice or awful.

Here’s how to respond inappropriately to this sort of argument, courtesy of John the Other at A Voice for Men:

[Y]es, it’s another one of those articles. Men are bad, women are good, men are worse, women are better, men are the worst thing ever, and women are just the best, squee!!! …

Ebert, in his attempt to ingratiate himself to a mostly female audience has done what countless other approval seeking men have done. Simply, to metaphorically prostrate himself – declaring – look, I’m a good man, not like those other bad men, you see how I heap scorn on them and flatter you? Approve of me!…

Ebert’s male-abasing and false esteem is a tired and monotonous repetition of standard gender ideology.

Sing along with me, you all know the words!

Women are better then men!

Boom boom boom!

They do everything better than them!

Boom boom boom!

 

Ladies are generally nicer!

Quack quack quack!

Their thoughts and feelings are higher!

Quack quack quack!

 

Girls and women are smarter!

Bing! Bang! Smash!

To keep up, men must try harder!

Clang! Bang! Bash!

 

Well, there’s a thoughtful argument.

Naturally, the commenters at AVfM are happy to join in the fun.

Shrek6 trots out the old “we hunted the mammoth” argument:

[E]verything on this earth from the knickers these women wear on their fat buts, all the way through to just about every single thing they touch in their day, up to and including homes, buildings, cars, trains, rockets, and the food they stuff down their throats, has all been either invented or produced by those useless ‘less than’ human, men. What a waste of space those men are!

Yep, I can feel a man strike coming on.

If all the men and boys in this world pulled the pin and sat on their buts for a month, the world would come to a grinding halt and anarchy would reign. All the women would be seen crying, screeching at men with gnashing teeth. Then they would eventually come begging.

Yep, that day is coming to these over indulged women. That day is coming!

Andybob, meanwhile, offers this analysis of what he sees as the gender enemy:

There are four main categories of women:

1) Women who care about the men in their lives, but never make the connection that their naked misandry contributes to the misery of these men. Most of those women who whooped and cackled when RegisterHer lifer, Sharon Osborne, expressed delight when an innocent man was genitally mutilated belong in this category. They would not have cackled quite so much if someone had brutalised their sons. Other women’s sons? No problem. It has ever been thus: white feather campaign in WWI.

2) Women who may pay lip service to caring about the men in their lives, but in reality, see them in the same way they see all other men – as utility objects to be manipulated and exploited. Such women don’t think of the men in their lives at all, except when they want something from them.

3) Feminists. These range from the mild (man-hating bigots), to the radical (man-hating bigots who advocate genocide and eugenics).

4) Women MRAs. These are rare women (I’ve never seen one, even in captivity), who regard men as actual people with collective and innate value. I can count them on two hands with fingers to spare.

Men have been struggling for many decades now with nary a peep from women. There is a reason for this.

They don’t care.

Feminism has provided today’s pampered princesses with the privilege-stuffed, consequence-free Nirvana that they believe they’re entitled to. Do you really think they can be swayed with reason and logic? Have you ever tried to discuss men’s rights with women? They will show concern for some imaginary, hypothetical female from some Third World country before they give two shits about the son, brother or friend standing in front of them. …

We are in a battle against a powerful, well-financed and establishment-supported entity which has succeeded in stealing our rights in every sphere. This has been done with the silent collusion of vast numbers of women. As such, a few “derogatory remarks” are the least they deserve.

Guys, I hate to have to tell you this, but you’re sort of making it look like Ebert might have a point.

Happily, I know that you all are statistical outliers, and that your raving misogyny (while it may reflect views common amongst AVFM readers, as evidenced by the upvotes those comments got) doesn’t reflect the views of most men. Heck, even some Men’s Rights Redditors are getting sick of your bullshit.

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MollyRen (@MollyRen)
8 years ago

Women MRAs. These are rare women (I’ve never seen one, even in captivity)…

“In captivity”? Really? Does he mean “in a cage in my basement”?

bhacssylan
bhacssylan
8 years ago

Wait, so does Angrybob not know how to count or something?

“4) Women MRAs. These are rare women (I’ve never seen one, even in captivity), who regard men as actual people with collective and innate value. I can count them on two hands with fingers to spare.”

So, has he seen any, or not? I mean, i suppose it’s quite easy to count to zero with fingers to spare, but that’s not usually what’s implied by that.

Also, sorry Mags and TyphonBlue, you don’t exist. Isn’t TyphonBlue a contributor there, even? And Mags is an r/MR mod now? And aren’t there several others around AVfM, too? Man, if I have an easier time naming women MRAs then an actual MRA, that’s pretty sad.

bhacssylan
bhacssylan
8 years ago

Also, I hadn’t thought too much about the second half of that line, but yeah, Molly. That is… uh… yeah…

Nobby
8 years ago

Also, both of those were me. Stupid wordpress changing my name around.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

Fairly sure if the men of the world took a time out, women would be just fine since *gasp* women do things to.

Like farm. And hunt. And invent stuff.

So you know, feel free to boycott.

Timid Atheist (@TimidAtheist)

These are rare women (I’ve never seen one, even in captivity)…

It’s pretty obvious that the only way they could keep a woman on their side is if they forced her to stay there in some manner.

Sharculese
Sharculese
8 years ago

If all the men and boys in this world pulled the pin and sat on their buts for a month, the world would come to a grinding halt and anarchy would reign. All the women would be seen crying, screeching at men with gnashing teeth. Then they would eventually come begging.

retailers struggle to adjust as world-wide whine production takes a dramatic plunge

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

If all the men and boys in this world pulled the pin and sat on their buts for a month, the world would come to a grinding halt and anarchy would reign. All the women would be seen crying, screeching at men with gnashing teeth. Then they would eventually come begging.

Shrek6 fantasizes about seeing women suffer, with wailing and gnashing of teeth like out of the Book of Revelation. He ends the revenge fantasy with women begging for forgiveness and help from men. Now, it’s fine and dandy for MRA’s to make up revenge fantasies against women. However, it’s mean to say that MRA’s are misogynists. Is that how it works in MRA Land?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

JtO and the rest really don’t have any critical thinking skills at all.

But yeah, feel free to boycott. We’ll manage somehow. Although I would like to know how this would be different from their usual doing nothing.

Ruby Hypatia
Ruby Hypatia
8 years ago

Funny picture. Now that he’s got her on a pedestal, he can look up her dress. No, no gender should be on a pedestal. We’re all hopelessly flawed.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

It’s kind of fascinating to see what happens when feminists and MRAs agree.

You get ” Most people are capable of great kindness; most people are capable of being total assholes.” from one and “Quack quack quack!” from the other.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

If all the men and boys in this world pulled the pin and sat on their buts for a month, the world would come to a grinding halt and anarchy would reign. All the women would be seen crying, screeching at men with gnashing teeth. Then they would eventually come begging.

Well, sure. All the MRAs, OTOH….

cloudiah
8 years ago

Wait, over on his post responding to the SPLC, JtO says

This is based on the tired and sloppy argument (since Goldwag presents no other) that opposition to feminism and hatred of women are the same thing. Feminism, the ideology, and women, the group of people, identifiable by their sex, of course are not the same, and not just because one is a biological demographic while the other is an ideological construct, the proponents of which are of any sex.

This must mean that andybob’s anti-women post is getting massively downvoted, right? Right?

/sarcasm

Kakanian
Kakanian
8 years ago

Everyone who claims that women are nicer than men as a rule has obviously completely missed the company of women between the age of circa 6 to circa 14. Because they’re pretty openly horrible to each other on a daily basis during that periode.

Not that the boys are any kinder to each other, but eh, this isn’t about them, amirite?

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Cloudiah – Andybob’s post isn’t anti-woman by MRA logic, because he allows for the possibility that <10 women in the world aren't pure evil. See, he's totally judging women by their individual choices.

Sharculese
Sharculese
8 years ago

Wait, over on his post responding to the SPLC, JtO says

that’s basically the opposite of what goldwag said. his post went out of its way to be like ‘yeah, you have some legitimate grievances but holy shit are you full of hostility towards women’

but y’know, jto’s rebecca watson videos pretty much proved that honestly representing arguments he’s dealing with is not something he’s capable of

littlem
littlem
8 years ago

@Shadow – I wish they would sit on their “buts”.

“But we won’t find you sexy …”
“But .. misandry …”

Yes. By all means. Go sit on that, boyos.

Buttman
Buttman
8 years ago

“Fairly sure if the men of the world took a time out, women would be just fine since *gasp* women do things to.”

Who is going to keep the power on? The famous coal mining women and oil rig women? Your pampered lifestyle is at the cost of thousands of men every year.

long time lurker
long time lurker
8 years ago

Andybob got me thinking. If a male feminist is a mangina, what do you call a lady MRA? womanis? peman? ladick?

Sara
Sara
8 years ago

“Women MRAs. These are rare women (I’ve never seen one, even in captivity), who regard men as actual people with collective and innate value.”

Shit, according to this definition, I’m a Women MRA, aaaaaaaa!

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I don’t regard men as having “collective and innate value” except inasmuch as they’re human beings. But I don’t think they have special extra value just for being men, and that’s why I won’t qualify as a Woman MRA.

The “collective” value means that they all get credit for Killing the Mammoth, the “innate” value means that all a guy has to do to get this credit is show up and be male, and fuck both of those.

Sara
Sara
8 years ago

@Cliff

I guess I’m thinking in terms of all humans having innate and collective value.

Tosca
Tosca
8 years ago

That’s the way it is in the MRA mind: women, collectively, are responsible for all the sins and none of the good that women through the ages have perpetrated. While men, collectively, can lay claim to all of the good men have done through the ages, but none of the sins. “ALL men built everything, but don’t you DARE suggest that even a fraction of men are rapists!”

SMK
SMK
8 years ago

It’s crucial to distinguish between opinions and facts. Whether or not women and girls are “nicer” than men and boys is a matter of opinion. It depends on what you mean by “nice.” These are facts: males on average commit roughly 90% of murders and aggravated assaults; over 90% of armed robberies, muggings, home invasions; 99% of violent sexual assaults(?); and 100% of rapes.

For obvious anatomical reasons, women can’t rape anyone, male or female, in the pure and literal sense of the word. And when women commit violent sexual assaults, it’s usually with male accomplices, and often under the duress of a violent male. Thus it’s reasonable to assume that women acting alone commit far less than 1% of violent sexual assaults.

This is why MRAs vilify women as “rapists” for permitting biological men under age 18 to penetrate them in de facto consensual relationships.

With some exceptions, both feminists and “masculists” are cultural determinists who believe that females would be as violent and criminal as males if equally situated and socialized.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

One of the things that particularly bugs me about pedestalising women — beyond the whole “people are people, we’re all capable of doing good things or shitty things” bit — is that it is a way of patting women on the head for actions that we are expected to perform that, in many cases, actively harm us. For example, in a professional context women are expected to be “nice” by not making a big fuss about extra work we do, and not making sure we get credit for going the extra mile. No such expectation exists for men. It doesn’t really matter to me if someone looks at this behaviour from an outside perspective and says “aw, well aren’t you sweet! You’re way better than your mean male coworker who is always grasping for credit!” It matters that my employer is not going to know that I’ve put in as much work as that male coworker, and so I’m not going to be rewarded for it in the same way.

Framing these gender roles in a “rah rah, women rock!” kind of way doesn’t make them any less harmful or constricting.

Lady Zombie
Lady Zombie
8 years ago

Poor Roger. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Sara
Sara
8 years ago

@Lady Zombie,

Exactly! I remember reading how that was one of the misguided arguments for allowing women to vote. Men in politics claimed women were better and more moral, so we should vote, rather than us being, um you know, citizens of the country and all…

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@SMK:

For obvious anatomical reasons, women can’t rape anyone, male or female, in the pure and literal sense of the word.

Fuck your “pure and literal sense of the word.” I can’t speak for anyone else but I am really sick of you coming here to minimise the experiences of rape victims you don’t think “count”, including adolescent boys. I would suggest you find another hobby horse, or find another blog.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

What Viscaria said. And the thing about “if a woman commits sexual assault, a man must’ve forced her to?” Not remotely true.

And no, I’m not a sweet nonviolent little creature because of the Nonviolence Rays emanating from my harmless little vagina. I’m a decent human being. Men have the potential to be decent human beings too.

OMG RADICAL BRA BURNER FEMINIST HERE, SAYING HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF DECENCY

Snowy
Snowy
8 years ago

For obvious anatomical reasons, women can’t rape anyone, male or female, in the pure and literal sense of the word.

wut

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

I swear, “hey fellow feminists, isn’t it nice how we all believe insert incredibly horrible thing herebecause that’s a totes feminist belief??” trolls are the most infuriating kind of trolls. Especially if they’ve said the exact same things at least twice before, and were shot down.

Idylle
Idylle
8 years ago

At the bottom of his article;
“John the Other … is also the Sword of Damocles, dangling like the promise of death above the ideas of gender ideologues, white knights, and other diseases,”

Is it a requirement over there at AVfM to be a large ham about everything?

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

A sword (that is also a promise) dangling over diseases?

I know I’m getting jaded because the mixed metaphors are annoying me more than the ludicrously violent imagery.

red_locker
8 years ago

Thanks for missing the point, Ebert.

Man, and I just got back from watching “Dark City: The Director’s Cut” with some of his commentary (awesome movie, BTW).

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

SMK showed up before?

Re: pedestalising

Ima just quote Chipmunk “And work your own way to the top/ If they put you on a pedestal, they can take you off”

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

For obvious anatomical reasons, women can’t rape anyone, male or female, in the pure and literal sense of the word. And when women commit violent sexual assaults, it’s usually with male accomplices, and often under the duress of a violent male. Thus it’s reasonable to assume that women acting alone commit far less than 1% of violent sexual assaults.

Well, that’s only because men don’t know that it’s wrong to rape!

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
8 years ago

I’d love to see these guys go Galt. Go ahead. For one whole month, produce nothing that you would ordinarily produce, up to and including Internet comments of any kind.

Please.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Men have the potential to be decent human beings too.

Exactly, it’s completely cultural, that men commit more sexual offenses than women, it’s very easy to get the number down to 1%, just like drunk driving or smoking, we just need more PSAs, more funding, …

Snowy
Snowy
8 years ago

Well, that’s only because men don’t know that it’s wrong to rape!

Oops, Vindicare I think you might be confusing the brony in the last post with all men. How embarrassing for you! I’m sure we’ll all understand if you want to take some time away from here after a mortifying mistake like that.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Don’t tell women to protect themselves, tell men not to rape!

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Exactly, it’s completely cultural, that men commit more sexual offenses than women, it’s very easy to get the number down to 1%, just like drunk driving or smoking, we just need more PSAs, more funding, …

Interesting that Trolly McTroll gave smoking as an example, because public health campaigns and law changes have massively reduced smoking in the US. Just as advertising campaigns had previously massively increased it. It’s gone from being a super cool practice to something that a lot of people will give you dirty looks and meaningful coughs for doing in their airspace.

You can see TV shows from the fifties with doctors smoking in the hospital. That doesn’t happen any more. Because the culture changed.

…It amazes me how people can argue “culture never changes, human nature is entirely innate” on the Internet.

GingerSnaps
GingerSnaps
8 years ago

99% of violent sexual assaults(?); and 100% of rapes

First of all, if you come out with numbers like that it’ll help you a ton if you quote a source. Second, your definition of rape is more archaic than the FBI’s. Get with the times, it’ll help you out.

Paul
8 years ago

Poor Roger. Benevolent sexism is still sexism..

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Yes, Cliff, no really, you’re absolutely right, I mean sex is like a drug, like… well not exactly like smoking… more like opioid addiction.

Sex, if you do everything right (but not less than that!), is not harmful: take care for the STDs, be responsible, don’t rape etc. … just like opioids addiction: take clean needles, don’t overdose, don’t get into drug-related crime, you can live a long life on heroine without harming yourself or other people.

But as we can’t tolerate people advertising opioid use, we can’t tolerate slut walks.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

Putting women on pedestals, filed under “things most feminists are also not a fan of”.

Most people I’ve known who subscribe to this mentality of “women are SOOOO much nicer and smarter because patience and babies and mommies” have been the kind of people who think “feminist” is some kind of dirty word and wonders why we “need feminism anymore” because “didn’t the bra burners take care of that stuff already?” And they are usually dudes who mean well, but don’t understand that this kind of mentality is still not great because it is yet another way of entrenching into people’s minds how women are other and how the best way for a woman to be “good” is to conform to a gender role.

zhinxy
zhinxy
8 years ago

“”…It amazes me how people can argue “culture never changes, human nature is entirely innate” on the Internet.””

Because the internet is really just a giant array of abacuses and a series of hollowed-out-mammoth-tusk tubes, run by manly cavemen in server caves, cliff. Geeze.

“Don’t tell women to protect themselves, tell men not to rape!”

I really really love the “feminists are saying women “SHOULDN’T PROTECT THEMSELVES OR SHOW AWARENESS AND SHOULD PASS OUT DRUNK AT ALL PARTIES BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTREMIST LUNATICS” tack. Because saying that rapists choose to rape and none of those activities summon them like neutral rape genies and cultural ideas can change is totally about telling women to let their guard down and try these yummy roofies.

GingerSnaps
GingerSnaps
8 years ago

Except sex is nothing like heroin, so your analogy is bad. Try again.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

GingerSnaps, then Cliff’s comparison with smoking doesn’t work, too… 🙁

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Vindicare’s got a point. The percentage of people who smoke has remained exactly the same over the last two thousand years.

Because culture doesn’t exist. That’s why everyone in every culture acts exactly the same, too. Ever notice how the sexual rate in every country in the world is exactly the same and has been for the last two thousand years?

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