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A Brony has some truly horrifying questions about rape

I have no words:

Is Mr. Sookdeo trolling here? Over on Bronysay, where I found this, someone claiming to know him says he was serious, just a bit “confused.” The questions seem sincere to me. Ugh.

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Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

explain to me why a macroscopic object isn’t a quantum mechanical system, mmh

Because of quantum decoherence. Do you actually know any quantum mechanics?

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence

“Decoherence is the mechanism by which the classical limit emerges out of a quantum starting point and it determines the location of the quantum-classical boundary. Decoherence occurs when a system interacts with its environment in a thermodynamically irreversible way.”

Living systems are textbook examples of the classical limit emerging from microscopic quantum states, because life in effect converts information into entropy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative_structure

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

Ok, pal, I probably know more about quantum mechanics than you, so let me explain: Decoherence solves the problem only phenomenologically but not ontologically, it doesn’t say that such a mixture of weird states is principally impossible, ok? It doesn’t give you anything new about what’s going on in a closed box where there is no exchange of information.

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

I meant “when there is no exchange of information.”, of course.

Living systems are textbook examples of the classical limit emerging from microscopic quantum states, because life in effect converts information into entropy.

At least we agree on that one, so not all hope is lost, for QuantumSparkle it’s a “gross misunderstanding of thermodynamics” to claim that living system increase the entropy of the universe.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

Ok, pal, I probably know more about quantum mechanics than you, so let me explain

Color me unimpressed.

Decoherence solves the problem only phenomenologically but not ontologically, it doesn’t say that such a mixture of weird states is principally impossible, ok?

Did anyone make that claim? I didn’t.

Ontologically speaking, there are no *real* “quantum mechanical systems”, because the universe is not actually divided into systems. So nobody gets to make *empirical* claims about which “systems” are “quantum mechanical” and which aren’t. Ontology 101!

Essentially you’re saying that quantum mechanics is a mechanics, therefore every system in the universe is a quantum mechanical system. That’s tautology, not insight.

In biology there is not, and never will be any living systems that don’t exchange information with their environment. You know that, and so when you say that a human being is a quantum mechanical system and thus there is some vanishingly small probability that said human could be in some weird superposition, you’re not really making a point. So could somebody’s toenail clippings. So could three hydrogen molecules thirty million light-years away. So? Is your point that you’re really smart!!!!! because you know some physics? Because that is–not very relevant.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ok, pal, I probably know more about quantum mechanics than you,

Assumes facts evidence.

so let me explain: Please do. We have naught but bated breathe.

Decoherence solves the problem only phenomenologically but not ontologically, it doesn’t say that such a mixture of weird states is principally impossible, ok? It doesn’t give you anything new about what’s going on in a closed box where there is no exchange of information.

Good thing the dark alley, and all it’s analogues, aren’t closed boxes. Not so good, for your attempts at overuling the objection above that the macroscopic systemn you want to deny the non-quantum nature of isn’t an ontological problem, but a phenomenological one.

So you are not only making your vast grasp of quantum mechanics look less masterful than your claims, but your understanding of philosophy is perhaps a bit less than adequate.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Hahahaha Vindicare! I have only a highschool education and even I know you can’t apply Quantum mechanics on a macro scale!

Unless of course, you want to reveal just how you found the holy grail of physics, a unified theory…..

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

I see, you all buy into this kind of nonsense. Have you ever thought, that maybe mainstream science is wrong? Yeah, I hear you “Wrong what is teached in college classes? Impossible! That can’t be!” (Though you believe exactly that when it comes to evo-psych). So you want to keep Newton’s rape manual and say that quantum coherence isn’t evident on macroscopic scales? Fine, ok, it makes no sense to argue with you, I see there’s no common ground here.

@pillowinhell:

Hahahaha Vindicare! I have only a highschool education and even I know you can’t apply Quantum mechanics on a macro scale!

Except that even the scientific establishment concedes that many macroscopic effects can only be understood with quantum mechanics… ferromagnets come to mind.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Well yes Vindicare, they do. However, there are simply too many confounding variables and apparently the current theory of quantum physics does not adequately explain the phenomenon. Hence the search for a unified theory to bring quantum mechanics and einsteins theories into better accord.

I think your scenario forgets the observable effect isn’t just measured by sentience or conscious effort. Someone in a dark alley is also being observed by insects, small animals and hell, even the quantum particles of the bricks. All of which exert their own influences.

When scientists set up their quantum experiments, they know that things like air pressure affects the results. Even earthquakes at great distances have an impact on the results and require being accounted for. Essentially, there is no closed system, such as Schroedingers thought experiment created for ease of testing.

lauralot89
9 years ago

Ok, pal, I probably know more about quantum mechanics than you

pillowinhell
9 years ago

And yes Vinicare, exactly what is it about yourself that makes probabiility support ithe idea that you know more about physics? From where I look at it, it seems more of an assumption than anything else, especially in light of the fact that you know little to nothing of QuantumSparkle, beyond a few posts.

And how do you get that newtonian physics is a “rape manuel”?

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

I see, you all buy into this kind of nonsense. Have you ever thought, that maybe mainstream science is wrong? Yeah, I hear you “Wrong what is teached in college classes? Impossible! That can’t be!” (Though you believe exactly that when it comes to evo-psych). So you want to keep Newton’s rape manual and say that quantum coherence isn’t evident on macroscopic scales? Fine, ok, it makes no sense to argue with you, I see there’s no common ground here.

oh, shit, it’s captain underground science here to lectures us on how his ad hoc maunderings make him totally super important and not just some loser whining about things he doesn’t understand.

vindicare have you found this brand of self-righteous huff-n-puff to actually work on anyone ever?

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

@pillowinhell:

And yes Vinicare, exactly what is it about yourself that makes probabiility support ithe idea that you know more about physics?

Because I studied it at Khan Academy.

From where I look at it, it seems more of an assumption than anything else, especially in light of the fact that you know little to nothing of QuantumSparkle, beyond a few posts.

Well, yeah, QuantumSparkle who thinks that in quantum mechanics every physical quantity can only attain discrete values, total expert.
I understand that this is not easy, at least not the math: wave functions live in the Hilbert space of square-integrable functions and suddenly you have things like the position operator with a continuous spectrum and with eigenvectors that rigorously aren’t even functions but distributions (like x*dirac-delta(x-a)=a*dirac-delta(x-a)!), but still… for an expert like QuantumSparkle this should be kid’s stuff.

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

@pillowinhell:

And how do you get that newtonian physics is a “rape manuel”?

Newtonian mechanics is not a rape manual, Newton’s Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica is. The method of inquiry outlined by Newton is founded on the metaphor of nature as a woman indifferent to or even welcoming rape.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

Because I studied it at Khan Academy.

With over 3,200 videos on everything from arithmetic to physics, finance, and history and hundreds of skills to practice, we’re on a mission to help you learn what you want, when you want, at your own pace.

oh shit, guys, he’s got a phd from the university of youtube.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

actually i’m a little bit impressed. rarely do our pseudo-intellectual trolls so boldly announce how totally clown car they are.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

So you want to keep Newton’s rape manual and say that quantum coherence isn’t evident on macroscopic scales? Fine, ok, it makes no sense to argue with you.

Just. What.

There is just so much wrong with every part of both of these sentences, that I’m having a lot of trouble figuring out where to start.

Leaving aside “Newton’s rape manual”, which is a weird juxtaposition with “it makes no sense to argue with you”, let’s turn our attention to “you want to … say that quantum coherence isn’t evident on macroscopic scales?”

No. Nobody wants to say that. Because if by “evident” you mean “observable”, then nobody who knows the science is going to dispute that you can observe quantum coherence. That’s how quantum computers work, to the extent they can be made to work these days given how almost impossibly hard it seems toe be at the moment to keep a system coherent enough to get any computational work done with qbits. But if you really believe that quantum mechanics would consider the macroscopic observer to be the part of the system that collapses the wavefunction, then you have completely misunderstood quantum mechanics. Completely. Not a little bit, but completely.

But let’s back up to this gem:

Have you ever thought, that maybe mainstream science is wrong?

Where is this non-mainstream science published? Where is an RFP so I can apply for a grant? I’ll mention it to my colleagues at the Fucking Science Institute that I Fucking Work At.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Does anyone else just see jetstreams from this conversation passing over, or is it just me?

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

the Fucking Science Institute that I Fucking Work At.

do you have any internship postings available? i dont have any science type skills as such, but i would very much like to add this to my resume.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Shadow, what? I was supposed to be looking up? I’m still waiting to observe quantum mechanics in action…

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@pillowinhell

Well, to be fair, I wouldn’t have the first clue where to start looking. o I may just be watching a plane fly over and be confusing it with the conversation 😛

Also, re: the whole rape manual thing

I don’t really know shit all about it, but the others covered it in this thread
http://manboobz.com/2012/04/27/civilization-and-its-discontented-ladies/comment-page-1/#comments

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

” Yeah, I hear you “Wrong what is teached in college classes? Impossible! That can’t be!”

I’m pretty sure that I’ve never said anything resembling “wrong what is teached in college classes”, actually.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Manboobz: Come for the mockery, stay for the quantum mechanics.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Oh katz, where is your super-serious science journal — I forgot to bookmark it, but I think someone on this thread needs to publish there…

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

“Because I studied it at Khan Academy.” oh well that explains everything — Vindicare apparently learned physics from the only Dalek to enter the time locked time war…not only would that teach him doctor who pseudo-science, but he’s a fucking Dalek

BTW Vindicare, you didn’t say “that living system increase the entropy of the universe” — you said that baby girls do, implying baby boys do not. And also implying that entropy could ever do anything but increase >.<

Epic fail in other words. (And now I'm going back to Tolkien's trolls, they really are more interesting than manboobz trolls currently)

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

Pseudoscience drives me absolutely batty. It makes a mockery of what my excellent colleagues in biology, chemistry, physics, and geology devote their careers to–rigorous, quantifiable study of empirically observed phenomena.

I have been working in science informatics for about 15 years now, and I no longer have any patience for internet dweebs who claim that their revolutionary new theory that they developed while not actually being any kind of practicing scientist at all somehow upends all the tens of thousands of research studies produced by the people I work alongside and have for my entire career. These theories invariably end up being incoherent gibberish that wouldn’t pass peer review even among other loons. Because the wacky theories never agree with each other, much less reality.

On the other hand, pseudoscience is kind of a rabbit hole of dadaistic absurdism, as disturbing as it is to imagine that, e.g., the timecube guy really believes all the stuff he writes. It’s only when people seriously believe it, and are then duped into investing in perpetual motion machines or bogus medical treatments, that it stops being funny and starts being a serious problem.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

but he’s a fucking Dalek

in all fairness, experiencing the time war did lead caan to conclude that the daleks needed to be destroyed, which as daleks go i guess makes him one of the better ones

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

@Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel — shit, my joke failed…I meant that Vindicare’s “science” is about as much science as the pseudoscience of doctor who’s time travel — it’s internally consistent, and looks a bit like real science, but it just isn’t set in our universe.

@Sharculese — <3 Caan! "I fleeeeew!" — so much more awesome than Vindicare; Caan's not really a dalek at that point anymore though, he's…something new, as Yana put it (why did Yana have to be the master! I liked Yana! :'( )

And now I think the laptop is done flipping out and I can actually get back to LoTR without epic lag, w00t!

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

QuantumSparkle has had it right all along. Much more concisely than me.

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

You are all beyond reason, there’s no sense to argue with you at all.

How dare you to drag the name of a respectable academic institution into the dirt?

Doesn’t my authority on these subjects matter to you at all? I have two degrees, in chemistry and physics, and my eyes still grow damp to imagine how Salman Khan sent the diplomas as an attachment from his very own mail address to me. I’ve earned better than to be mocked by ignorant defenders of Newton’s rape manual.

@Argenti Aertheri:

And also implying that entropy could ever do anything but increase

I “imply” exactly what the second law says. The entropy of the universe can’t decrease.

Live long and prosper!

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

How dare you to drag the name of a respectable academic institution into the dirt?

Doesn’t my authority on these subjects matter to you at all? I have two degrees, in chemistry and physics, and my eyes still grow damp to imagine how Salman Khan sent the diplomas as an attachment from his very own mail address to me.

How sure are we that’s not a poe?

I’ve earned better than to be mocked by ignorant defenders of Newton’s rape manual.

wut? Citation, please. (the defenders of a rape manual part, not the part where you’ve earned something from us, since that’s obviously wrong)

Pecunium
9 years ago

Vindicare: I see, you all buy into this kind of nonsense. Have you ever thought, that maybe mainstream science is wrong? Yeah, I hear you “Wrong what is teached in college classes? Impossible! That can’t be!… Fine, ok, it makes no sense to argue with you, I see there’s no common ground here.

If you want to argue that QM is misunderstood/wrong, as the dudes who study it understand it, fine. Argue that. Put up some actual hypotheses, and explanations.

Saying, “It could happen” isn’t an argument, and just telling us we’re wrong isn’t persuasive.

Go back and look at why we think EvPsych is bullshit.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

Vindicare, let me make just one thing perfectly clear. I have no problem with the Kahn Academy, and I assume that you neither speak for it nor are representative of its alumni. What I have a problem with is you thinking that having those degrees excuses you from having to support your claims with something other than an appeal to the fact that you have those degrees. That goes for everyone and every institution.

Now, how is what I just wrote above “beyond reason”?

Hey Alpha Asshole, have you ever seen “What the [bleep] do we know?”

I have, and it’s completely horrible. Some of the scientists who appear in that movie were furious that their interview answers were edited to misrepresent their views.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

itsrdc:

For the record, enjoyment has fuck all to do with it, it’s still about consent. People have been known to orgasm during their rapes, that doesn’t make it ok or not rape.

And whatever our resident trolls may tell you, if a person consents to sex without enjoying it — even if zie knew at the outset zie wouldn’t enjoy it, even if zie didn’t intend to enjoy it — that’s not rape.

Shadow:

Does anyone else just see jetstreams from this conversation passing over, or is it just me?

Not just you. But at least I haven’t been educated stupid like everyone in the conversation who isn’t Vindicare.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

How sure are we that’s not a poe?

i say actual cretin who thinks doing some sort of weird obtusity troll makes him look clever instead of just boring

QuantumSparkle
QuantumSparkle
9 years ago

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel (and others):
It seems correcting Vindicare’s use of bad physics in the service of a really stupid, unfunny rape joke released a bit of pseudoscience as well.

Thanks for dealing with all that while I wasn’t here answer Vindicare’s multiple, agitated responses. I made 1 blog comment and apparently it’s enough to “really try” his patience! Hm, I guess it’s unsurprising someone with so little patience also lacks the patience needed to become an expert before declaring himself one. 🙂

If this Khan Academy is actually legit (I haven’t investigated it), and broadcasting decent information and lectures, and has some way to evaluate student’s understanding and knowledge, then that’s a pretty cool way of disseminating knowledge. However, this statement:

Have you ever thought, that maybe mainstream science is wrong?

is not what I’d expect from an expert in any scientific field, and represents profoundly pseudoscientific thinking.

Also, wtf is all this gibberish about Principia Mathematica being a rape manual? Acutally, you know what? Nevermind – Newton was way into all sorts of non-physics stuff too, (he devoted years of his life to alchemy, for example), and it’s not important either.

QuantumSparkle
QuantumSparkle
9 years ago

Vindicare: So sensitive. And stop trying to read thing into what I said. Macroscopic systems are too complicated to be treated using full quantum field theory, and for an actual solution, classical mechanics is almost always sufficiently accurate for human-sized problems. Don’t be obtuse.

Anyways, here are more corrections for you-

Take the wave function of a free particle and measure it’s position… is that discrete?

Position is a continuous variable- mathematically. But the measurement of the position is necessarily discrete because of Heisenberg uncertainty. Since physics is an empirical science, talking about whether position is actually a discrete or continuous variable is irrelevant, because that cannot be observationally determined. The position of a particle is discrete because the only measurements that can be made are whether an electron is located within a discrete region.

QuantumSparkle who thinks that in quantum mechanics every physical quantity can only attain discrete values, total expert.

Um, yeah? Quantum mechanics is fundamentally about the quantization of measureable phenomena. That’s what quantum mechanics is about. Continuous variables are useful mathematically, but are not physical observables in quantum mechanics.

Whether position (or momentum, etc) is fundamentally discrete or continuous in our universe without reference to how measurements are taken is a philosophical question, not a physics question, because there is no way to distinguish the two possibilities experimentally.

PS: Everyone else- sorry about initiating the massive physics derail! Definitely not everybody’s cup-o-tea, and that’s cool.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Oh hey Quantum Sparkles, I’ve been waiting with baited breath for you to come back. So no worries.
And I thought heisenburgs uncertainty principle fit in there! But I didn’t take physics, so I won’t speak to what I have almost no background in.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

The Kahn Academy seems to be the real deal. Open access education rocks.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

Since physics is an emlpirical science, talking about whether position is actually a discrete or continuous variable is irrelevant, because that cannot be observationally determined.

Ontology WIN

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Wait, the legendary Bolllywood hunk and star of Hum Aapke Hain Koun teaches physics on the internet?

Oh, different Salman Khan.

Well played. That would explain his fucked up views on relationships and women though.

Vindicare
Vindicare
9 years ago

I’ve got a crush on both Khans, perfect brain and perfect body, too bad it’s not combined in one person.
@Sharculese:

i say actual cretin who thinks doing some sort of weird obtusity troll makes him look clever instead of just boring

Oh, Sharculese, I understand that you’re angry, but still… if the best you can is to resort to ableist slurs, you’re out.
@QuantumSparkle:

But the measurement of the position is necessarily discrete because of Heisenberg uncertainty.

“Discrete” means that there are only certain special values which the measurement can give you. For example, a measurement of the energy of the harmonic oscillator will only give you something like (integer + 0.5)*h-bar*omega, so 1.5001*h-bar*omega or 2*h-bar*omega can never measured.

Question for you: What are the possible results of a measurement of the position in the harmonic oscillator?

And I’m really curious to learn what the Heisenberg uncertainty has to do with discreteness.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Uh oh, the sentient bong hit has returned to tell us all how it is.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

Oh, Sharculese, I understand that you’re angry, but still… if the best you can is to resort to ableist slurs, you’re out.

lol. called it.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

vindicare, at some point you’re going to find out that being obsequious and pretentious is in fact not a substitute for a personality, but until then i guess keep fucking that chicken

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Sharculese: you’re a very optimistic man. Some people can go through their whole life without having this kind of revelation.
What is it that you called?

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

@kyrie

what slur did i use? cretin originated in french as a slang term for the mentally challenged. but yeah, nobody uses it that way and vindicare’s being his traditional dissembling self trying to turn it back on me.

Sharculese
Sharculese
9 years ago

what slur did i use?

*you mean what slur did i use?