Over on A Voice for Men, our dear friend Paul Elam has come up with an interesting new way to celebrate Mother’s Day – with what is essentially the longest, least funny, and most rage-filled “Yo Mama” joke ever. (Indeed, it’s so rage-filled I should probably put a Trigger Warning right about here.)
Elam starts off by addressing the mothers of the world, suggesting he’s got a “a socially conscious twist” on the traditional Mother’s Day celebrations. Mothers, he argues, should gather together the flowers they’ve been given by their loved ones and:
Place a bunch of daffodils at a dumpster near you, perhaps one in which one of you, or one of your kind, has tossed an unwanted baby, leaving it there to slowly die alone in a pile of trash.
Perhaps you could lay a single rose at the base of a bridge that has been used by a mother to throw her baby into an icy river. Perhaps you can lay it there with hands that have beaten or shaken a baby to death.
You probably didn’t see that coming, did you? He goes on.
Now perhaps some of you could place large, colorful arrangements at the abortion centers where women go to have children cut out and laid to rest in those colorful and attractive biohazard containers that are all the rage in the clinics. …
Maybe you can lay virtual flowers at your computers to honor all the children that you and your sisters have pimped out to pedophiles, or perhaps the blossoms could be placed in your child’s room, which also doubles as your preferred place to abuse your own.
Oh, but you say you haven’t done any of these things, and that abortion isn’t actually the same as infanticide? No matter. Elam has an answer for that:
This is not a request for some mothers, or a percentage of them, but all of you. In fact, you don’t even have to be a mother. If you have a vagina, the blood of all those children, who are abused far more at the hands of women than men, has stained your skin and caked around the cuticles of your fingers.
If you are a mother, particularly one of the many abusers, or just one that has remained silent as your sisters have beaten, choked, stabbed, burned, drowned, abused, neglected, dumped, tortured and otherwise done the unspeakable to the most defenseless among us, then I hope to see those flowers in your murderous hands, paying homage to those that have been unfortunate enough to be placed in your path. …
In Daffodils for Dumpsters the gash gets you in, and you don’t really have a choice.
You see, Elam has decided that we live in an era of “collective guilt,” and that the evil (straw) feminists who go around blaming all men for the actions of a few – through such dastardly things like rape awareness seminars – deserve to find themselves collectively blamed as well.
Except that Elam’s post goes well beyond an ill-conceived and ill-intentioned attempt at “turnabout is fair play.” This isn’t a piece of Swiftian satire. He actually believes all this hateful nonsense, and says as much:
Now, do I really mean all this? Yes. It is not that women deserve to be collectively regarded as child abusers and killers. Most aren’t. Most are actually very good to their children and can even be trusted with the children of others. But that truth is not what is important here.
What is important is the children, or the principle, or whatever other bullshit we make up to convince ourselves it is not about demonizing women when that is exactly what we are doing.
I have to confess I have no idea what he’s trying to say in the second paragraph here. Did he mean to say “men” instead of “women?” If so, this is an interesting little slip.
He continues:
The fact is that mothers are more dangerous than fathers where it concerns children. They always have been. It is only a few percentage points in that direction, but of course in a White Ribbon way, it is more than enough to justify pointing a finger at your entire sex and feeling superior as we watch you atone for the unspeakable acts of a minority.
So, suck it up ladies. If you knew about White Ribbon and said nothing to object to it; if in general you have remained silent or actively participated as the image of the male half of the population has been reduced to that of a depraved threat, the step up and get your flowers. You deserve every last petal, stem and thorn.
I imagine Elam chuckling a bit as he typed that final word.
And a happy Mother’s Day to you, too!
Oh, and if you found yourself wondering about that “White Ribbon” thing, Elam is evidently (as best I can figure it) referring either to the women who, during World War I, handed out white ribbons to men who didn’t enlist in the army. Or he’s referring to this contemporary campaign to fight violence against women. But I don’t live inside Elam’s head, so I’m not sure what he meant, or why he seems to think that all women would know about either campaign, much less have any responsibility for them.
NOTE: Elam is also celebrating Mother’s Day by suggesting I had something to do with creating Reddit’s appalling “beatingwomen” subreddit as part of a nefarious plot to make the Men’s Rights movement look even worse than it manages to do on its own.
You may notice that Elam presents no actual evidence to back up his claims. There is no such evidence, because Elam’s accusations are utterly and completely untrue.
I have nothing whatsoever to do with r/beatingwomen. Nothing. I don’t know anything about who created it, or what their aim was beyond laughing at pictures and videos of violence against women. As I’ve said before, it’s a vile place. I think Reddit should shut it down.
@revspinnaker
YES INDEED THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THAT QUOTE IS TRYING TO EXPRESS.
Um, no?
Revspinner, I’m totally with you on ending child abuse. The truth is, plenty of proactive solutions to the issue have been given by a variety of organizations dedicated to studying child abuse. The problem is that very few of those solutions are being implemented.
Right now, there’s a seven year old little girl dead, despite two social agencies being involved, the abusers themselves repeatedly asking for help and enough red flags to cover an entire town with. The only person who seemed to care about this little gilr was her principal. This shit happens far far too often.
Argenti: Yes, the straight numbers do imply that, for total cases, women are as likely to commit an abuse.
What it doesn’t factor is rate. If you look at the amount of time men spend, relative to women, as caregivers, men are still more likely to abuse.
IR/FF/Preggo Punchout: Really? Post a dissenting comment on five random feminist sites or blogs, then try the same for five MRA ones. We can compare data later
Have you been banned from here?
No?
Strange… this is a site run by a feminist. Opposed to the misogyny one finds in the Manosphere. Elam has commented here.
Emma the Emo has commented here. Antz comments here. You comment here.
Now, go back to AvFM, look for comments from feminists? Is SRSister still commenting there? No.
Why is this relevant? Because the question is what bubble of sycophants does Paul Elam live in. Even if feminist sites weren’t letting non-feminists comments* The question is how freely does Elam let people disagree with him. The answer is he doesn’t.
*Which isn’t true: e.g. Brandon who isn’t banned at Feministing; and it took him saying some women deserve to be raped to get banned here; prior to that he was allowed to be as contrarian as he wanted. No aplogies needed when he was moderated; not banned, all he had to do was make a substantive response; to anything, which he did, and the moderation was lifted)
Pecunium, duly noted already:
Italics added as you seem to have missed that comment among IR’s rantings. Either that or you’re just repeating the point for emphasis and I should go to bed >.<
Argenti: Here’s an interesting article on the subject.
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Child Murder …
Psychiatric NewsResnick PJ: Child murder by parents: a psychiatric review of filicide. Am J … Subject: * ‘s American Journal of Psychiatry: ‘Child Murder by Mothers: A Critical …
Also, don’t you think, “shown[ing] video post-birth on how to handle babies…” might be more effective if shown pre-pregnancy? Also by who? Where? Perhaps at a “Walk a Mile” “Slut Walk” type public awareness event comprised of women against child abuse.
Yes, some of the same people that push patriarchal roles for families also encourage child abuse. James Dobson’s bestselling book Dare to Discipline is a book that encourages parents to control their children’s behavior with corporal punishment. Michael and Debi Pearls’ book To Train up a Child is more extreme and (content note for child abuse) it teaches parents to use plumbing rods to hit children to punish them for disobedience. The MRA’s that say they’re so concerned about child abuse don’t spend any time talking about these groups, though, because they agree on having men control women.
revspinnaker — I’m assuming you’re American, the speaker of that line was a Brit, the NHS has a post-birth while still in hospital support program, she was suggesting we need the same. The NHS targets the post-birth period specifically because mothers are 1) already in the hospital usually and 2) already being taught things like how to get the baby to latch for breastfeeding. Considering that a lack of affordable and accessible prenatal care is a causal factor in child abuse, no, we cannot target the prenatal period. Unless we make prenatal care more accessible, which you won’t find any feminists arguing against.
The one article I can find from your citations is studying specifically maternal filicide specifically because “of the likelihood that different risk factors exist for paternal and maternal filicide.” — And skimming the rest they say the same that video did, the US needs a better safety net, more supports, etc.
No one here is arguing that child abuse is a good thing though, quite the opposite. Did you read any of the statistical analysis though? Mothers are easier to target because they give birth, they are thus generally in hospital for that, the father may or may not bother to show up.
You should perhaps take this argument to the “spare the rod spoil the child” folks, they need to be told they can’t just do whatever they want to their kids — feminists already know this and are already fighting for children’s rights.
@Crumbelievable- those stats are only hard stats- they don’t actually seek to get an idea of how many people in the *population* are abusers.
For example, something like 95% of rapists are men, but 95% of men are NOT rapists. Rapists make up a very small percentage of the overall population.
Perhaps the reason why abusive moms are more prevalent out of *ONLY THE PERCENTAGE OF ABUSERS* is because moms make up the primary caregiver at a far greater rate? Additionally, “female” caregiver does not always mean “mom”- sometimes it is an abusive aunt, grandmother, or female family “friend”- or even female foster care person. It’s not necessarily “moms R EVUL”.
I would like to see a population study that shows how many dads and how many moms are out there who are regularly parenting in their children’s lives and then compare them to the number of men and women marked as abusive by the CPS statistic. This would give us a better idea of the prevalence of abuse in the population by gender, and might actually give us some more meaningful data points.
/statisticsgeek
Kendra, I got as far as “Michael and Debi Pearl’s” and started shuddering, yes, they are *exactly* the sort I mean. I could find so many children killed by their methods. *shudders some more* Just one example (So many trigger warning on that link: extreme child abuse leading to death)
Nanasha — it’s here, that statistical analysis you’re looking for.
Argenti: I linked the analysis you suggested and found the info was culled from the National Clearing house for Child Abuse and Neglect.
This is what I found there.
“National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information
The National Child Abuse Information Clearinghouse is no longer in existance and this website is a fraudulent facsimile of the site that was previously operated by the Children’s Bureau.”
Hmmm…
And the information provided at Liznotes, with NIS-3 stats analyzed by “dastardly dads,” conveniently omits mothers acting in conjunction with a paramour.
It also omits fathers acting in conjunction with a paramour >.<
And citation needed on your other claim, the data is culled from The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (1996) — which is hosted by the gov’n.
Or are you referencing the only statistic I could find that implied mothers might be as abusive as fathers? Except no, that one is also of a .gov site…
Oh hey, it’s the illiterate, innumerate twit who is forced to lie to make his points again. I guess you missed that your points were wrong last time, no? Or did you think that because the present crop of commenters is mostly different, we’ve forgotten?
Argenti: It’s actually that my commenting style is to make replies as I see comment, then post when I get to the bottom of the page.
So, esp. when I am behind, I often parallel other people. That study has been around the block a few times. We’re pretty familiar with it, and the ways in which revspinnaker, and his lot, tend to abuse the results of it (and pretty much every other study on the subject).
Rutee: I don’t think he is forced to lie. I think he chooses to.
Pecunium — ah ok, having to repeat the statistics repeatedly is annoying me, that’s not your fault though. Apparently I should give up, if he’s already familiar with it. I’d guess he chooses to lie, if he managed to notice that the study excludes couples but took that to mean only abusive mothers, that’s a unique level of misinterpretation if it’s not intentional.
@Argenti:
“Mothers are easier to target because they give birth, they are thus generally in hospital for that, the father may or may not bother to show up.”
In that case perhaps she didn’t know the father. The same could be said of the mother’s parents and extended family.
“You should perhaps take this argument to the “spare the rod spoil the child” folks, they need to be told they can’t just do whatever they want to their kids…”
I have, including the story of Hanna that you referenced for Kendra. Dispicable people that never should have been allowed to bail out of prison.
…”— feminists already know this and are already fighting for children’s rights.”
Not as loud as Slut Walks, Walk a Mile in Her Shoes, the Vagina Monologues, “all men are potential rapists”…
That Katy Kay interview was the first I heard of the issue on American TV.
That Katy Kay interview was the first I heard of the issue on American TV.
Which of course means it was never discussed anywhere prior to that.
Confirmation bias in a nutshell.
revspinnaker — wow can you twist things!
“In that case perhaps she didn’t know the father. The same could be said of the mother’s parents and extended family.” — neither the grandparents (and where are his parents in your world?) nor the extended family are legally responsible for the child the father is
And labor tends to take most of a day, or longer, a hospital stay is 3+ days…so even if he’s a perfect doting father, at some point he’s probably not going to be there, maybe at work, maybe off getting drunk. But in any case, the mother is stuck there thus it’s easy to provide education to her while she’s there. Really, just google the NHS program.
“That Katy Kay interview was the first I heard of the issue on American TV.” — the Pearls or child abuse? As you must mean the former, you do realize that not everyone obsesses over one bad book but instead focuses on wtf to do about it?
You do understand that Slut Walks are 1) organized by social media, there is no feminist overlord committee behind them and 2) a response to blaming rape victims for having it coming because of how they’re dressed? I’m assuming not…
But frankly, if you can’t see the difference between the grandparents/extended family and the father of the child I’m done trying to debate with you.
@Pecunium, are you familiar with the “all men are potentially rapists” concept he’s referring to? If so, does it offend you?
(And no, that bit about “maybe off getting drunk” is not a crack at all fathers, just mine)
There was a slutwalk in Jerusalem, right? Now if they did it before they’ve got the barrier, I would say: “Hats off! That’s brave.”
Argenti: If feminists are intent on “fighting for children’s rights” why haven’t I heard any of them backing Barbara Boxer’s Violence Against Children Act?” It’s languished in judiciary committees for years now. Where’s Joe Biden when you need him?
Argenti, don’t bother with revspinnaker. He lies and twists things so much it’s easier to teach a pig to sing than to get a fact through his thick skull.
I don’t know what other US hospitals do, but at Freeman Hospital in Joplin, me and my husband both watched an educational video about the dangers of shaken baby syndrome after I had both of my children. It showed a baby that was shaken by her babysitter and ended up in a coma. Every new parent watches the video, signs a form, and then a nurse signs the form as a witness they watched it. It makes more sense to show the video to new parents, because they are going to be taking care of a newborn on their own after leaving the hospital. It wouldn’t make sense to show the video at a SlutWalk. How would they do that anyway, since they take place outside and not at cinemas? I think it would be nice if everyone watched a video about not abusing pets, but I know it would be better to show something like that to new pet owners at the Humane Society than at a random outdoor protest.
Vindicare, you are, yet again, not really making sense. Wtf barrier do you mean? Condoms? Female condoms? They have both… It seems though that you’re implying attending a Slut Walk is likely to get one raped when the entire point is that rapists rape, not clothing.
revspinnaker, I have this suspicion you haven’t heard anything any feminist has said because you aren’t listening.
hellkell, I was hoping he’d have something of a point, but clearly not. If his point is feminists don’t care about child abuse because he’s never seen it, I’m certainly not going to bother trying to fight his confirmation bias.