For a bunch of guys who love to pretend they don’t care about women, Men Going Their Own Way certainly do love to talk about them. So much so that I’m thinking they may need to update their little acronym to MGTOAW: Men Going Tediously On About Women.
Over on MGTOWforums.com, for example, the regulars are having their tenth billion discussion about how women totally get all ugly as they get older, while men get handsomer and more awesome. Gannicus, himself 40 years YOUNG, starts things off with this:
To me, one of the most obvious things a man should notice is that in the US, most American women have fallen apart or completely without value by 40.
Is it just me, or does that “in the US, most American women” bit remind you of Miss South Carolina and her “US Americans?”
I know some will say it happens earlier, but lets just stick with a round number. And lets forget about virtue, loyalty, honesty, etc for a moment, which we know is not exactly known to be a top export of American women. Just being completely shallow and superficial, based on appearance alone, I find it disgusting and repulsive to view virtually any woman at 40. I just turned 40 and I am proud of my appearance. I expect to continue taking care of my body,etc.
However, I feel that based on looks. weight, hair, facial quality, etc. that 1% or less of Amercian women at 40 are, shall we say,bangable or even tolerable if you had to stare at for 10 minutes. And lets not even mention that wretched term from a bygone era called feminity. That is almost unheard of in the US in any age group. …
Which then leads me to wonder what the hell do young guys think their female partners will look like at 40? I mean, do they think THEIR girl will be different?
I’m just throwing this out as a hypothesis here, but I’m guessing that “most young guys” aren’t angry, bitter, woman-hating assholes who think all women over 40 are hideous hagbeasts.
Back on MGTOWforums.com, Downandout repectfully disagrees with Gannicus thesis. He believes that many women get ugly long before they hit 40.
It’s not so much that American women hit 40, it’s that 40 hits American women. Hard.
Jokes aside, I don’t think you can peg it to one number. A lot of skanks are starting to look awful in their 20s. Take Lindsay Lohan for example. Girls are starting to drink, do drugs, eat shit, and party hard at a very early age. Their small bodies can’t take that kind of abuse, and it’s showing. On top of that, they wear pounds of makeup to cover up the abuse, which only further contributes to the problem.
Deathslayer quotes the expert testimony of a colleague who calls himself RealDealBrotha:
Look at how quickly these chick fall COMPLETELY off, yet they STILL think they can do everything a man does for as long as a man does it…. NOT! …
Look at all the females who whore away their prime years, or go into career mode, or just choose men for silly reasons and NOT try to better themselves enough to be WORTHY of a good man (who is NOT a simp) wifing them up. They have so little regard for men that they think that they can have good men at their beck and call after they’re aged out fat chicks dragging around kids who they had with other men. It REALLY does NOT work that way, yet they don’t ever figure out the obvious until it’s too late.
We see and hear this story all the time. It comes up so often, that it’s really funny to me now. It warms my heart to know how badly these arrogant, misandric, selfish, worthless women are doomed to crash, burn and live the remainder of their wretched lives as bitter old maids whose only value will be as jumpoffs for bottom-feeder men who lack the guts and the nuts to raise the bar.
It’s always nice to see MGTOWers complain about misandry in comments overflowing with angry misogyny.
Toadman, for his part, seems happy to ignore women altogether, celebrating his independence by sitting at home eating canned food that’s way past its expiration date.
I have an unopened can of pork-and-beans in the cupboard that will taste the same as when canned. It’s lasted longer than the 10-15 years of female fertile desireability. Talk about “shelf-life”.
As they say, living well is the best revenge.
@Pecunium, they should probably switch to phpBB’s closed forums then >.< Complaining about people reading things printed publicly is a new one by me. Given your point makes just enough sense to make my mind boggle, you're probably right.
"That he has a wider readership also adds to the dismay." — that mocking them has a higher readership than reading them does should really tell them something. Would probably tell them something if they're heads weren't firmly lodged in their asses.
RE: Argenti and Descartes
Yeah, I once had a long, FASCINATING conversation with someone who believed with all her heart that I did not exist. I was simply a very vocal delusion who got pissed when I was misgendered. (Also apparently as a gay man my husband was a girl? Buh?) “I think therefore I am” wasn’t good enough. Also, she seemed oddly invested in finding out what genitals this body was born with.
It was a very enlightening conversation, though my system had to cart me off because I was starting to develop a bad case of “SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET.”
RE: cloudiah
I’m glad you liked the comics! I’m working on another one that has nothing to do with multiplicity or gender. (What a shock!)
LBT, I’m glad one of your system members knows not to argue with people being wrong on the internet, it’s so not worth it when they’re attacking you personally and not just generally wrong. (Also, wait, your husband was a girl means ze called Mac a girl? *I* find that hilarious, I can only imagine what he had to say on that)
I’m not sure if you want psychology’s issue explained, so I’ll keep my “that was my major!” rambling uber-short, but it seemed like a large bit of their issue is that they’re still stuck on religion and souls and you must only have one of those!! >.< Maybe once they get fully over the idea of souls they'll be less dumb, one can only hope?
RE: Argenti
Pretty much everyone but me knows–and I usually remember until I reach that special level of annoyed where “if I stop arguing THE TROLL WILL WIN!” Also, her blog was specifically all about multis not existing, so I just… couldn’t… help myself.
And no, it wasn’t religious. There’s a lot of multi-specific history here that I don’t expect you to know, but sum up, she had gone through a very abusive psych system that coerced her into being multiple. It was iatrogenic for her, and therefore, it became a moral cause for her to “expose” multiplicity as purely iatrogenic.
PS from Mac: I just found it funny. She didn’t seem to get that I LIVE HERE. Ro tried to tell her that and she just… poof. Nothing. I’m cis so I can find it funny. But hell, I wasn’t going to get involved in that! I got SENSE.
Argenti: If they went to listerve, or closed fora, they wouldn’t have even the readership they have now.
They also want to pretend they are a powerful, growing, vibrant movement. They are engaged in the Greatest Civil Rights Struggle of All Time.
They can’t hide. They are Manly Men. They are Brave. They are willing to Speak Truth To Power. They will not cower. They WILL BE HEARD!
Their problem is that when people listen, the response is laughter. They don’t know how to deal with that. It’s confusing. All the “truth” in the world is there, and almost no one believes it.
“It was iatrogenic for her, and therefore, it became a moral cause for her to “expose” multiplicity as purely iatrogenic.” ooh, a case of “it was for me so it must be for you” >.<
I'd meant the psych field in general has a hang up about souls though, they get rather twisted at either the idea that humans simply don't have souls, or could possibly have more than one. It just makes their heads implode, at least at the undergrad level. They have nothing like a clue in other words. (It may be wtf my degree is in, but I have very little respect for the field as a whole.)
Mac: lol! You don't exist to her and find that funny…this is why I was laughing my ass off reading though LBT's blog.
Pecunium, I’d say they may want to work on their critical thinking skills, but I knew that already. They could, idk, turn off comments? If they’re not going to question why it is everyone just laughs at them that is. They kind of remind me of the time I tried debating the use of uber-skinny models in advertising with a Libertarian, that was fun (they use skinny models because they’re most attractive….5 years later I wish I’d known fat acceptance then >.< )
RE: Argenti
Rogan: Ah, gotcha. I admit to having no grip on philosophy or theology whatsoever, so the soul argument is totally alien to me. I mean, of COURSE you can’t prove the existence of a soul! You can’t prove the existence of anything that’s built on conception like that; you just have to trust that the person identifying with it isn’t lying!
And in case you’re into trainwrecks: http://jeanettebartha.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/healthy-multiplicity-com/
Mac: Well, why should I care? Not like I’M ever going to be married to her.
RE: Argenti
Rogan: I have no grip on philosophy or theology whatsoever, so the idea of even arguing about a soul as anything but an intellectual exercise just flabbergasts me. Of COURSE you can’t prove it exists. You can’t prove ideas of perception like that!
And in case you like wrecks: http://jeanettebartha.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/healthy-multiplicity-com/
Mac: Why would I care? SHE’S not married to me!
If turning 30 meant being able to go all Terminator on rapists, bullies, and/or sexual harassers, people would be LINING UP for that shit. SRSLY. 😀
In other news, I had my first major depressive episode at age 9. Organic brain disorders don’t tend to discriminate based on age.
RE: Argenti
I keep trying to link you to the trainwreck, but nothing happens. I think maybe the link is getting held up in moderation?
I have no grip on philosophy or theology. The idea of arguing about the existence of intangible unprovable things as anything but an intellectual exercise flabbergasts me.
Mac: Well, I’M not married to her. I’m better than Gigi; she got driveby denied once and she was foaming at the mouth for HOURS.
LBT — if the link is in mod it’ll be out by the time I get up, and I really should get to bed or it’s going to be Tuesday when I get up and that’s just weirdness.
I’m not sure how big a deal the theology is to actual psych theory, the idea of souls was definitely causing confusion in my profs though. Psychology is going all “we’re neuroscience not philosophy” while ignoring that psychologists are human, and in most cases were raised with religion…it was clearly a point of tension though, one I hope they manage to work out sooner rather than later. Shorter version of what I’m trying to say here — “The idea of arguing about the existence of intangible unprovable things as anything but an intellectual exercise flabbergasts me.” — they seem to treat multiples as an intellectual exercise on the assumption it’s? you’re? rare enough they’ll never meet one. Flabbergasting is certainly one word for it.
Mac: Gigi does not seem like someone I’d want to piss off, that must’ve been fun to deal with. Also, I keep reading “and she just… poof” and picturing your wrong-on-the-internet idiot simply poofing out of existence.
RE: Argenti
Rogan: Well, I tend not to come out to people who find me a faaaaaascinating mental disorder, so fancy that. I guess we must be rare around them!
As for the poof it was just… “404: file not found.” She literally did not seem to comprehend the idea that me and Mac were in the same system. Just… the wheels were turning, but they weren’t GOING ANYWHERE. I think she just responded with something like, “Huh. I’ve never known someone to identify someone in another body as a system member.” And then seemed to think I was a lesbian.
Gigi just stonewalled the denier out of the chatroom and then went arghlebarghle for a while and calmed down.
LBT/Rogan — “Well, I tend not to come out to people who find me a faaaaaascinating mental disorder, so fancy that. I guess we must be rare around them!” — I think that basically sums it up in general, yeah. They only see multiples who are um, how to word this…multiples who aren’t co-conscious enough to function in day to day life and seek treatment for the amnesia. Which is probably partly where the assumption all multiples are iatrogenic comes from…
And FTR, I’d fall under “Huh. I’ve never known someone to identify someone in another body as a system member.” too — but I am neither a system member nor an involved body, so wtf do I care? Frankly I prefer the universe to not make sense, it’d be damned boring if I knew everything!
That seems quite mature for Gigi, but I’m trying to remember if I’d read anything she wrote or just things your other system members wrote about her…I may’ve gotten the wrong impression. In any case, “arghlebarghle you’re wrong!” seems a good reaction to assholes, not like they ever learn if you try being patient.
Re: Argenti
Well, keep in mind that the DSM pretty much doesn’t allow for multiplicity being anything but a detrimental state of being. There really is no term for a multiple system who just goes about their lives healthfully. So you get a lot of ideas about faking or Special Snowflakeism. (We manage to escape it because we disgustingly have enough trauma cred to be “legit.”)
Gigi tends not to write a whole ton. Also over the years, she’s gotten better at learning how to respond appropriately to emotional distress, so she’s less… nuclear in her behavior. It helps that we now live in a place where she can, should she choose, socialize safely. Having around people who like her does wonders for the kid.
“There really is no term for a multiple system who just goes about their lives healthfully. So you get a lot of ideas about faking or Special Snowflakeism.” *grumble* they can get this right about fetishs, so wtf is their issue here? (A fetish is only considered a disorder if it’s either harming someone, eg pedophilia, or causing distress) — Also, the word “enough trauma cred” should not exist. I know what you mean, but yuck.
“Having around people who like her does wonders for the kid.” — I’d think that the case with most children, I’m glad for her though. That question about how you know you’re real and Gigi’s meltdown kind of made me want to offer her a hug, questioning if you’re even real cannot possibly be any fun.
Shit, when did it get to be one? If I don’t go to bed I’m going to insomnia myself right back into being nocturnal >.< Goodnight!
Yeeeeeah, but I had the impression that it took a while for them to come to that conclusion. And before that they pathologized being gay. It’s more like each battle has to be fought separately. : /
RE: Argenti
Enh, that wasn’t a Gigi meltdown. That was just a “Gigi is mad” moment. Meltdowns are… well, she’s ten. And yeah, go sleep!
RE: MollyRen
Yeah, it’s obnoxious. It’s like they’re frickin’ surprised that people can experience X without throwing themselves out of windows constantly or something. I have similar issues with trans being in the DSM. (And man, did I have to lie my ass off to get my trans healthcare!)
@MollyRen — yeah I know, I guess I’m just hoping things will change once the generation of psychs I had as classmates are really the generation of practicing psychologists (they’re mostly still in grad school now).
@LBT — no sign of your link, I’m not sure where it got sucked into, but whatever. And oh boy, 10! My cousins’ kids are all right in the 9-13 age range, fun times when someone’s mad.
As far trans* being in the DSM *bangs head on the DSM* yeah idfk, not like GPs don’t hand out anti-depressants, not really sure why hormones are such a big deal (and in a sense, they aren’t, a women going on the pill is no biggie for example). It’s almost like they’re worried insurance is going to cover someone “faking” like anyone would do that.
Wheeeee, now to get caught up on everything else after sleeping all day >.<
@LBT — your link is out of mod and *wow* is that a trainwreck, and taking Dr. Phil seriously! It’s like MRA arguments over there…ok I need to close this before I go rage-face at it, the utter lack of understanding of psychology and the DSM is mind boggling.
Oh. My. Gods. I just got to this blogger being pissed the therapist always believes the patient…having earned my trauma cred as well, and generally not being believed because I really must have the worst of luck…yeah, now I’m about to go rage-face and I’m more like your age than Gigi’s >.<
I really should've closed that sooner, I need tea now.
RE: Argenti
Yeah, it was pretty educational, I will say. But you see how I ended up getting a bad case of “WRONG ON INTARWEB ARGH.”
I’ve been pretty lucky thus far, mostly in that I’ve managed to weasel my way around most mental health requirements, and the one therapist we’ve ever seen we lucked out on, and she was qualified enough to let me bulldoze through trans crap with minimum pain and fuss.
Mac joked afterward that the only reason I was multi was for his dick.
LBT, yes, someone is definitely wrong on the internet ARGH.
That is pretty lucky — I’m some sort of anxiety + mood disorder(s) though which diagnosis changes with every damned psych, and I haven’t exactly had the better of luck finding ones that actually listen without then basically saying I’m lying — that was the HS psych, the current one is the 2nd~3rd since her. I’m never sure whether to count the college psych dept’s grad student I saw twice as that was epic fail. (She didn’t say I was lying or anything that bad, she just clearly needed her own damned psych before she tried sorting anyone else.)
To Mac’s credit, sex is about as good a reason as any to do anything.
Enh. I had to be dragged to a therapist; Mac and Miranda had to pretty much dogpile and armtwist me into it. As a result, I insisted on a few ground rules and interrogated the hell out of the poor woman on the phone and walked into the first appointment with pretty much, “This is the situation, here’s who we are, no drugs or integration or treating us as singlet. If you can’t do those things, you aren’t the right person for us.”
She said she could deal, and as a result, despite the global wanderings, we’ve never seen anyone else. Then again, thankfully, I don’t really have to; we aren’t seeking a diagnosis and don’t need anything from her but plain old therapy.
Eh, at least you’re assertive enough to do that? I’m trying to figure out how to fire my current one, and whether I can even do that while applying for SSDI/SSI. I want a talky-psych, which it sounds like is what you have, and I have a drug-psych who can’t actually listen >.< (well "want" — life has basically armtwisted me into this)
I'm glad you found someone you like though, I'm not sure if you got lucky, or this is just another area where I have shitty luck. As for global wanderings? *jealous* 🙂
Can’t talk regarding SSDI/SSI, alas, but one of the things I did to hack the drug issue out of the question was to make sure who I went to see couldn’t prescribe them. Our shrink’s a social worker; she can’t prescribe drugs. (Even if I HADN’T given her the ‘no drugs’ talk flat-out first.) It means I sometimes get other people’s disapproval because there’s some bizarre hierarchy of mental health workers and social workers are apparently low on the ladder, but she’s OUR therapist, not theirs.
Enh, I may well be preaching bull, but I try to interview mental health folks pretty thoroughly before I go in, to give me an idea whether they’ll work. I try to approach it like: I am hiring THEM. That means that we are their boss, and we get to fire them if their technique doesn’t work for us. (I don’t care if you’re the best sushi chef in the world; if I only like Italian food, it’s not going to work.)
This is probably older hat to you than it is to me, but I found it helpful asking usual shit like:
“Do you have any experience with queers/trans folk/multiples/children/whatever? If so, what? If not, how would you feel about working with one?”
“What would you say is your modus operandi in therapy? What techniques do you use? What things influence you?”
“What is your opinion on [insert relevant issue here–repressed memories, polyamory, whatever]?”
It helped make me feel more in control and power of the situation, and approaching as a “I hire YOU, we are partners working together for my health,” instead of “you are the great all-knowing doctor, I am the helpless patient, please bestow your cure upon me mighty one!”