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MGTOWers agree: “Most American women have fallen apart or completely without value by 40.”

Future MGTOWer?

For a bunch of guys who love to pretend they don’t care about women, Men Going Their Own Way certainly do love to talk about them. So much so that I’m thinking they may need to update their little acronym to MGTOAW: Men Going Tediously On About Women.

Over on MGTOWforums.com, for example, the regulars are having their tenth billion discussion about how women totally get all ugly as they get older, while men get handsomer and more awesome. Gannicus, himself 40 years YOUNG, starts things off with this:

To me, one of the most obvious things a man should notice is that in the US, most American women have fallen apart or completely without value by 40.

Is it just me, or does that “in the US, most American women” bit remind you of Miss South Carolina and her “US Americans?”

I know some will say it happens earlier, but lets just stick with a round number. And lets forget about virtue, loyalty, honesty, etc for a moment, which we know is not exactly known to be a top export of American women. Just being completely shallow and superficial, based on appearance alone, I find it disgusting and repulsive to view virtually any woman at 40. I just turned 40 and I am proud of my appearance. I expect to continue taking care of my body,etc.

However, I feel that based on looks. weight, hair, facial quality, etc. that 1% or less of Amercian women at 40 are, shall we say,bangable or even tolerable if you had to stare at for 10 minutes. And lets not even mention that wretched term from a bygone era called feminity. That is almost unheard of in the US in any age group. …

Which then leads me to wonder what the hell do young guys think their female partners will look like at 40? I mean, do they think THEIR girl will be different?

I’m just throwing this out as a hypothesis here, but I’m guessing that “most young guys” aren’t angry, bitter, woman-hating assholes who think all women over 40 are hideous hagbeasts.

Back on MGTOWforums.com, Downandout repectfully disagrees with Gannicus thesis. He believes that many women get ugly long before they hit 40.

It’s not so much that American women hit 40, it’s that 40 hits American women. Hard.

Jokes aside, I don’t think you can peg it to one number. A lot of skanks are starting to look awful in their 20s. Take Lindsay Lohan for example. Girls are starting to drink, do drugs, eat shit, and party hard at a very early age. Their small bodies can’t take that kind of abuse, and it’s showing. On top of that, they wear pounds of makeup to cover up the abuse, which only further contributes to the problem.

Deathslayer quotes the expert testimony of a colleague who calls himself RealDealBrotha:

Look at how quickly these chick fall COMPLETELY off, yet they STILL think they can do everything a man does for as long as a man does it…. NOT! …

Look at all the females who whore away their prime years, or go into career mode, or just choose men for silly reasons and NOT try to better themselves enough to be WORTHY of a good man (who is NOT a simp) wifing them up. They have so little regard for men that they think that they can have good men at their beck and call after they’re aged out fat chicks dragging around kids who they had with other men. It REALLY does NOT work that way, yet they don’t ever figure out the obvious until it’s too late.

We see and hear this story all the time. It comes up so often, that it’s really funny to me now. It warms my heart to know how badly these arrogant, misandric, selfish, worthless women are doomed to crash, burn and live the remainder of their wretched lives as bitter old maids whose only value will be as jumpoffs for bottom-feeder men who lack the guts and the nuts to raise the bar.

It’s always nice to see MGTOWers complain about misandry in comments overflowing with angry misogyny.

Toadman, for his part, seems happy to ignore women altogether, celebrating his independence by sitting at home eating canned food that’s way past its expiration date.

I have an unopened can of pork-and-beans in the cupboard that will taste the same as when canned. It’s lasted longer than the 10-15 years of female fertile desireability. Talk about “shelf-life”.

As they say, living well is the best revenge.

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katz
8 years ago

Manjaw: I went to that exhibition. Practically all the stuff there ended up on the internet being circulated as totally real.

katz
8 years ago
Tak the Hideous New Girl
Tak the Hideous New Girl
8 years ago

I’m 41 and I freely admit that I’m falling apart:

Bad back
Bad sinuses
Allergies
COPD
FAT! (It’s tough to exercise when the least little movement causes your lungs to asplode)

..and I have very short hair and glasses.

If my very existence offends you (MRAs,) fuck off and die.

Dead Celluloid Dead
8 years ago

Haha. Pugs do look like pig-dogs.

As I’m sure all of you know, I was just imitating their kind of language to make fun of them. I was just being a bit silly. *Red faced*

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

We’re just being silly, too. 🙂

katz
8 years ago

DCD: we know, we just like pigs and dogs.

swankivy
8 years ago

Guy responding to one of my YouTube videos in which I discuss being an aromantic asexual:

“You’re underage, so of course you think you’ll never feel differently. When you mature, though, you’ll see why this ‘asexuality’ thing you’re doing was just a childhood phase.”

Me:

“I know I don’t look it, but I’m thirty-four. I’m not underage for anything but the presidency and senior discounts.”

Him:

“You’re THIRTY-FOUR? Christ, woman. You’re alone at thirty-four? So pathetic. And by the way your hair is terrible and you’re a conceited art-fag. No wonder no one ever wanted to sleep with you. Too late now. Have fun with your cats.”

Moral of the story:

Can’t win. I’ll be condescended to about my inability to know what I want until I look so old that people will assume this is really about my inability to get it.

Snowy
Snowy
8 years ago

Haha aw man you really can’t win with these guys, can you? I wonder what his cutoff age was for when “you’re too young to know anything” becomes “you’re old and no one will ever love you!” maybe 18? Or maybe there’s some age in between there where he might have come up with even more ignorant theories and insults to explain why someone might be an aromantic asexual. But I guess no one will ever know now, how sad.

Dead Celluloid Dead
8 years ago

@Swankivy: I love the logic fail of that youtube commenter.

1. You’re underage! Probably still in diapers
2. You’re 34? Good Christ, you could pass for 80.

WUHHH???

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I think at about 21-25, there’s a small window where “you’re too ugly” is the insult instead. Or, if the person is too conventionally attractive for that (almost no one is, but just in case) you can say “you’re too stuck-up” instead.

swankivy
8 years ago
Reply to  Snowy

I actually get all of the above. I don’t really think I’m *classically* attractive, but I’m in the normative range of What’s Considered Reasonably Attractive (after all, I’m a thin, white, petite, blonde-haired, blue-eyed woman), so sometimes I get “A hot asexual, that’s just depressing.” (I’m going to waste if someone isn’t boning me, remember?) But a lot more often I get told I’m ugly, crazy, smelly, stuck-up, pretentious, boring, or whiny-sounding. (One wonders how they determine I’m smelly through the computer.) I’m still in the range of attractiveness that requires certain men to scream out of car windows and attempt to touch me on the bus, so I guess I win.

There is actually an age range that is said to be optimal for “the unassailable asexual”–meaning you get a gold star if you’re between 25 and 40, being old enough to not be a college kid trying to get attention but young enough to not be (usually) experiencing any hormonal changes from menopause. Despite the fact that I get the gold star in pretty much every category, I obviously don’t get left alone. There are a lot of entitled rambles by people (mostly men) who try to explain to me my obligation to try sex, etc. It’s kinda stupid. They all think they have magic penises and I’m sure they think they work on lesbians too. After all, sexuality is like vampirism. You have to get bitten to before you have the urge! We’re all asexual until we become straight through heterosexual sex! Not.

I have plenty of lists depicting the plenty of other excuses they have besides age to dismiss asexuals, though. I’m sure most of y’all are familiar with bingo cards.

http://swankivy.com/temp/bingo.jpg

Gods forbid anyone comes up with the idea of actually listening to what we say about ourselves and saying “Actually, it’s kind of none of my business what she’s attracted to.”

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

“You’re THIRTY-FOUR? Christ, woman. You’re alone at thirty-four? So pathetic. And by the way your hair is terrible and you’re a conceited art-fag. No wonder no one ever wanted to sleep with you. Too late now. Have fun with your cats.”

I don’t get the insult “Have fun with your cats”. It’s great to have cats. I didn’t have any cats last year and felt like we needed a pet, so I adopted one around Christmas. So if someone tells me “Have fun with your cats”, I can say “Thank you, I will. My cat is very sweet and I enjoy her company”.

swankivy
8 years ago

Oh, forgot to mention this:

I think it’s really interesting how often “she’s asexual, but she’s actually not ugly!” comes up in discussing asexualtiy. Articles that interviewed me and whatnot have actually come out and said that I am not old or ugly.

One in The Daily Beast a while back:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/07/18/no-sex-no-problem.html

Quote:
“Ivy, svelte and fair-skinned with waist-length blond hair, is a part of the approximately 1 percent of the population that, according to a 2004 study, identifies as asexual.”

Translation:
“Pay attention, she’s pretty!”

It’s very telling, in my opinion, that the article decided to go there, as if without a picture people would judge me as “probably old and/or ugly” and actually feel this is a legitimate reason to dismiss my orientation.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

@Ostropoler,

This is because “Pics or she’s not pretty” is the standard PUA reply to someone’s being married/engaged/monogamous and it is normal for married gurus to experience a sharp decline in sales and students. Also Roissy-Heartiste’s famous “some fetishes are the domain of [male] losers.” (In reference to male submission art.) Only a problem if you internalize it enough, as I have.

swankivy
8 years ago

Oh Kendra, YES, totally. Now me personally, I don’t have cats and probably never will (I’m allergic to most of them and am not a Pet Person), but of course the insinuation here is that YOU’RE LONELY YOU’RE LONELY HAHA YOU PROBABLY HOARD CATS TO ASSUAGE YOUR DESPERATE LONELINESS!!!

Having cats is great. But when they start going for the “cat lady” insult they’re always just stooping really low trying to paint you as a sad old lady. It’s funny that they can’t imagine a woman living alone and wanting it that way, cats or not. I’m sure they’re the same idiots who think women become lesbians because no guy would do them.

M Dubz
M Dubz
8 years ago

@Cliff- Nobody, including movie stars, is EVER too attractive for “you’re too ugly.” Because it doesn’t matter how pretty you are; it’s always shorthand for “I disagree with you and want to make you feel bad, and this is the fastest way to do it because in my puny mind the thing a woman cares about most is her looks.”

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@M Dubz — I never really ate pig to begin with, so I can’t vouch that these taste like pig, but they taste like food — soy “meat” — I haven’t tried the bacon, but the soy dogs are delicious. And porkless baked beans should be easy to find with the rest of the baked beans.

@Kendra — how much can you actually taste the mustard? I can’t stand the taste of the stuff >.<

Back on topic — it's hypergamy to MRAs to even be interested in a man of remotely higher status right? But when they hit 40 and their woman gets all saggy, they'll just trade her in for a younger woman? The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

I guess there's no point in telling them then that my 60 year old aunts look more like 40…and are both in long term relationships with men the same age range who wouldn't dream of trading them in for a younger woman.

Regarding his 15 year old baked beans, they're probably technically edible, but I wouldn't expect them to still taste like they should. If they had botulism, the 15 year delay makes little difference though, they'd be just as dangerous a month after they were packaged. (This is less "oh those poor MRAs" and more "don't eat it if it's bulging or foul no matter how fresh it is")

Carrie
8 years ago

I’ve noticed their preferred age for women with MRAs is 18 to 25 (or 29 if they’re feeling generous). Though I’m sure a number of them would go as young as 14 if they could get away with it.

Honestly, aging is inevitable, even with their perfect little Russian/3rd-world women. They fail to realize that.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

I spend 5 min tracking down soy bacon, and you all end up on pig dogs! Damned is that pug adorable though.

@Cliff — “Or, if the person is too conventionally attractive for that (almost no one is, but just in case) you can say “you’re too stuck-up” instead.” — usually more like “stuck up bitch” but close enough.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

@Kendra — how much can you actually taste the mustard? I can’t stand the taste of the stuff >.<

I think the taste of the mustard is barely noticeable. It’s still very necessary, because without it, the baked beans are too sweet and lack that extra kick. A cousin of mine adds hot sauce to this recipe, and that’s also good. If you use hot sauce, you wouldn’t need mustard.

Here’s something weird, btw. I actually eat the onion after baking the beans, too. It sounds weird but the onion absorbs the flavor and it’s pretty good. I realize this may be a bit of an
acquired taste, though lol.

Bostonian
8 years ago

That picture will give me nightmares though! Very children of the damned..

kladle
kladle
8 years ago

Though I’m sure a number of them would go as young as 14 if they could get away with it.

Check the rest of the site, MRAs commonly go on extended laments about the age of consent and how misandric it is that they can’t bang barely pubescent teens

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I’m pretty sure the preference for <25 year olds, like the preference for women from Eastern Europe and Asia, is mostly about perceived naivete.

(Combined with some failure to realize what 30- and 40-year-olds actually look like–the way they talk about it, I suspect a lot of the women they see on the street and think "ha, 35 and she's lost her beauty" are closer to 65. Or more likely, they don't base this off any specific people at all, but just a mental image they've built up through Common Knowledge, Everyone Knows It exchanges with other misogynists.)

It's a lot less about "once a woman gets her first wrinkle, she is useless to my boner" and a lot more about "once most women get into their thirties, they've been burned a few times and learned not to put up with bullshit."

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

That Van Camps kid obviously thinks that a perfect garnish for his haggard meal would be my soul.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@Kendra, thanks for the info, I might try that with hot sauce. I think the onion probably is an acquired taste though…oh there’s an idea…use the onion for hotdogs and peppers afterwards, and I’d already been intending to try those lightlife sausages for that…

I’m pretty sure the preference for <25 year olds, like the preference for women from Eastern Europe and Asia, is mostly about perceived naivete.
….
It's a lot less about "once a woman gets her first wrinkle, she is useless to my boner" and a lot more about "once most women get into their thirties, they've been burned a few times and learned not to put up with bullshit."

That seems likely considering I don’t think I know anyone who made it to 25 without at least one grey hair. Then again, I’ve also known people jaded at <16. How much do you think it's about naivete versus their belief all non-virgins are sluts? (Or are virgins sluts too?)

Shit, are virgins sluts to MRAs? Inquiring minds need to know!

darksidecat
8 years ago

There are so many stunning women over 40, and I am far more likely to find older women sexy than older men, though that could be a matter of personal taste. It’s so strange to me as a 23 year old who sometimes looks at the undergrads on the bus and thinks “they look so young, it’s hard to believe I am only a few years older” to imagine a 40 year old wanting to date them as the default.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I’m 26 and I don’t have any gray hairs! That I’ve noticed.

I kind of want to go gray, though. I think it’ll make me look very serious and wise, or something.

speedbudget
speedbudget
8 years ago

I bet you could cook those sausages in the non-pork baked beans and they would taste bangin’.

DYOR
DYOR
8 years ago

“There are so many stunning women over 40,”

Where? you talking about the celebrity list that was mentioned?

There are a few exceptions but remember the exceptions always proves the rule.

Everybody has their own taste, I appreciate a beautiful woman 🙂

ozymandias42
8 years ago

Cliff: I really want gray hair! I’ve always wanted to look like Sophie from Howl’s Moving Castle. But it’s really hard to dye your hair gray apparently. 🙁

Adding my anecdata to the age issue: I’m twenty and I get a lot of “too young to know anything about gender!” comments from MRAs. So to be taken seriously as a woman you must be at least older than twenty.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

“The exception that proves the rule” is the most nonsense saying ever.

“All swans are white.”
“Hey, there’s an entire species of black swans in Australia!”
“Pfft, they’re the exception that proves the rule. Just goes to show all swans are white.”

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

I’ve had sex with four women over the age of 40, and all were more than satisfactory in terms of being “bangable”.

Come to think of it, two were American.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@Cliff — lucky! I was still in HS when my first grey made its appearance. Thinking about it though, my FWB will be 28 soon and I don’t think he’s got any yet either. If I go grey anything like my mother and aunts did though, I won’t mind much either.

@DYOR — as I said above, those aunts are both 60~ and look more like 40. Neither is a model, actress, or anything of the sort. Heck, the younger one could still pass for 35 if her step-daughter wasn’t that age!

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

My boyfriend is 28 and he’s getting a little gray around the temples. But he’s a man so clearly that’s irrelevant so long as he’s rich and treats me badly!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@ozymandias — manic panic Virgin Snow is pretty close to grey.

katz
8 years ago

“The exception that proves the rule” is the most nonsense saying ever.

Not inevitably–my recent one was realizing that all my games are about animals, except for the one where you are a shapeshifter who turns into different animals–but certainly most of the time.

I assume by “the exceptions prove the rule” DYOR means “those women don’t look 40,” except of course they look 40 because they are 40 and therefore that’s what 40 looks like.

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

29 here, and so far grey-free, at least as far as I can tell. I feel special now. (In a “this isn’t actually a thing that matters, but hey, yay me, I guess” sort of way.)

My boyfriend is going grey in a super-sexy fashion – rather than getting grey around the temples or something like most people seem to, his silver hairs are distributed perfectly evenly around his head. Given that he has dark brown hair, the overall effect of one in every, I dunno, 500 hairs or so being silver is that, in the right light, his head is sparkly. I joke that I’m dating a Twilight vampire, only without the sulky-sexist-horrible-emo-stalkerness. If I can pull off the same effect, I’m totally down for grey hairs. (Unfortunately, with hair as long as mine, when I do actually start going grey it’ll probably just look weird. Oh well.)

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
8 years ago

I’m only 21, and I don’t have any grey hairs yet. However, I’m kind of hoping that I’ll go white like my grandmother did–she had the same color and texture as mine, so I think there’s a good chance I will.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Am I the only person who thinks that bright white/silver hair is often really pretty on older women? There’s a woman I see around town sometimes who has sort of a pixie cut, I’m guessing she’s in her 50s, and I think the color is just gorgeous on her. I’m 38 and would definitely consider hooking up with someone who looks like that. Also echoing whoever said it upstream – I see far more women in the 40+ range who’re still very attractive than men. Probably a combination of women making more effort and the fact that we tend to take better care of our health.

With the older MGTOW I picture them looking kind of like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scream.jpg

But with more wrinkles, particularly around the mouth. Personality really does start to show on your face at a certain age, so being angry little balls of hate can’t be doing anything good for their appearances.

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

To say something like “Helen Mirren looks great for a woman in her sixties” implies that women in their sixties generally don’t look great. The minute you mark something as an exception, you’re implying that it exists in relationship to some corresponding rule or trend.

That’s how “the exception proves the rule” is supposed to work.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

I agree that bright white and silver hair can be very pretty on older women. I just love Paula Deen’s hair. I also think Jaime Lee Curtis has a beautiful mixture of dark and gray hair, and the short cut really works on her, too. I’m glad to see some women in the entertainment business that are allowing themselves to look their age and show other women that getting older is not a bad thing.

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

“All swans are white.”
“Hey, there’s an entire species of black swans in Australia!”
“Pfft, they’re the exception that proves the rule. Just goes to show all swans are white.”

In this case, the very fact that the one species is referred as “black swans” (their color always has to be pointed out) implies that, as a general rule, swans are not black. It’s not that they empirically “prove” that all swan are white, they just prove that swans are generally understood as not being black.

I am not in any way defending MRAs nonsense; I’m just trying to clarify a misunderstood and misused phrase.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Hey Manjaw! Stick around; it’s Creativity Night at my pals’ place and I’m warming up with a sketch of you (or what I imagine you to be) before going to work on my comic project. I should have it done soon!

*totally has no clue what the current discussion is, sorry guys, just wanted to catch the Mighty before she wandered away*

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Another example of women ageing well – Diane Weist. I think she actually got prettier as she got older.

It’s so sad how American culture doesn’t even seem to have the idea of older women being pretty as a concept. I remember watching the behind the scenes interviews for an animated movie called Millenium Actress, and the director talking about the character design and how he wanted to make the star “a really pretty old lady”, and you can totally see it in the design they ended up with, but watching him say that made me sad for a moment because I can’t imagine seeing an American director say the same thing.

(BTW I highly recommend the guy who directed that movie, and his other movies. He passed away a few years ago – one of the most genuinely empathic towards women directors out there, in my opinion. I put off watching Perfect Blue for years because given the subject matter I was worried it was going to be horribly creepy and exploitative, but actually he nailed it.)

Ruby Hypatia
Ruby Hypatia
8 years ago

I guess that guy doesn’t notice the receding hairlines and pot bellies on men over the age of 40?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Manjaw, while I get that you’re just correcting a misused phrase, what about, for example, “smart for a pretty girl”? If the exception really always proves the rule, then pretty girls aren’t usually smart. (Which they probably aren’t to MRAs…)

Maybe “the exception proves the rule (even if the rule is bogus)”?

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

Maybe “the exception proves the rule (even if the rule is bogus)”?

Yes. Here’e the clearest way to put it:
The exception proves the rule exists. Not that it’s “true” or valid.

nwoslave
8 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri
“How much do you think it’s about naivete versus their belief all non-virgins are sluts?”

It really has nothing to do with naivete. Everyone of you here is belligerent, rude, obnoxious, sexist, racist, vengeful, spiteful, hateful, vain, arrogant, disloyal and spoiled. Not the most endearing of qualities representing such a diverse crew of women. However, the lip service is unparalleled.

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

If the exception really always proves the rule, then pretty girls aren’t usually smart.

What the phrase “She’s smart for a pretty girl” proves is that there is a cultural trend or “rule” that says pretty girls are not smart. The fact that the speaker is making an exception demonstrates the presence of a rule.

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

Someone who actually believes that the “rule” reflects objective facts might say that the “fact” that only a few women are smart and pretty “proves” that IN GENERAL, as a “general rule” pretty girls are not smart and/or vice versa.