Categories
bad boys beta males evil women misogyny music nice guys video

Friend-zoning Out

One of approximately ten gazillion zillion “friend zone” rage comics.

I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.

Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:

[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.

Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it.  (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)

Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting  “friendzoned” in the first place.

Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”

Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.

Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.

* Hetero cis penis only.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

555 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Wetherby
Wetherby
9 years ago

My wife and I are usually in sync, but we both turn each other down occasionally – because we both know that if one of us isn’t in the mood for whatever reason (tired, stressed, sick), sex really isn’t going to be that much fun for either of us.

As for this whole notion of the perfect partner, I doubt very much that person exists. My wife lacks certain interests that I might have considered deal-breakers back in the days when I was less mature about such things, but she’s so spectacularly right for me in all sorts of fundamental ways that things like her near-total lack of interest in music don’t faze me at all.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

I like sex and romance, but I like them in non-intersecting ways. Romance doesn’t make me horny and sex doesn’t make me lovey-dovey.

Romance is also non-intersecting with how much money a guy spent. I come from a rich family, I know all about the “how dare you say we don’t care about you, we spent thousands of dollars to keep you out of our sight!” game. And I get the very same ooky feeling when I hear “how dare she say I’m not romantic, that was a hundred dollar dinner and thirty dollar flowers!”

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Yeah, and how exactly are we supposed to tally how enthusiastic the sex is or what specific acts should be done? Because when you look at the market value…a hundred bucks don’t get you much.

yzek
yzek
9 years ago

@Kendra, the bionic mommy:
Thanks, but just because I disagree with most popular opinions on this topic here DOES NOT mean I’m totally clueless at dating and need basic advice. But apart from your opinion about me, your comment was meant for badly infatuated bloke who needs help, and not a manipulative jerk who needs radical attitude correction therapy. That’s really exceptional here.

Good luck,
Y.

Wetherby
Wetherby
9 years ago

Romance is also non-intersecting with how much money a guy spent. I come from a rich family, I know all about the “how dare you say we don’t care about you, we spent thousands of dollars to keep you out of our sight!” game. And I get the very same ooky feeling when I hear “how dare she say I’m not romantic, that was a hundred dollar dinner and thirty dollar flowers!”

There’s been more than one case of a guy (if a woman has ever done this, I’d love a link) attempting to sue former dates for the amount he spent on her. In one case about a decade ago, this was after a four-year relationship broke up, and it transpired that he’d kept all the receipts and maintained a meticulous spreadsheet of everything he’d paid towards her throughout that time. Not only did the judge throw the case out, but I suspect (and hope) that the plaintiff might have difficulty ever finding a date again.

For me, romance is buying things my wife likes (usually something edible and in a packet) and hiding them somewhere in the house or her car for her to stumble upon later, ideally when she’s alone. Once I contrived to have something left in her desk drawer at work, which confused the hell out of her until a colleague confessed that we’d conspired together. And no, I haven’t kept receipts.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

it transpired that he’d kept all the receipts and maintained a meticulous spreadsheet of everything he’d paid towards her throughout that time.

Well, that’s unfair! He needs to deduct sex acts at market value.

Wetherby
Wetherby
9 years ago

That’s probably why the judge threw it out.

Monsieur sans Nom
Monsieur sans Nom
9 years ago

Seriously yzek, grow a pair!

Women like jerks and hate nice guys. You need to up your game and stop being such a whiny bitchboi.

Futrelle: Women don’t like nice guys??? WHO’DATHUNK! Geez, way to state the obvious.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

If women liked jerks, MSN, you’d have a harem thousands strong.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventy!

yzek
yzek
9 years ago

@Monsieur sans Nom:
Seriously, did you actually read my comments? I may only repeat what i said to Kendra, the bionic mommy with a “FY” instead of “good luck”.

@Regulars: brace yourself, PUA is comming.

Y.

LC
LC
9 years ago

I think I need to lurk here more often. This thread has been fascinating and now it looks like MSN is going to give us something worth munching popcorn for.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Oh noes! PUA!

This is supposed to be scary? Being PUA is a really great way of broadcasting not to date you for any length of time.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: yzek

Please don’t use PUA. It’s insulting to you and the person you use it on.

RE: MSN

Because you’ve never, ever whined on this site. NEVER.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

I suppose by definition good PUA is PUA the woman doesn’t know about (and there’s nothing creepy about that…), but every PUA I’ve ever seen in the wild has been hilariously bad… and hilariously lonely.

(Cue “well, PUA only works on hot girls who aren’t meanie man-haters.” The Emperor’s PUA, you see.)

yzek
yzek
9 years ago

@LBT:

“Please don’t use PUA” just after a gave a middle finger to PUA-advocate? Seriously, one cannot ever be sure: am I trolled or misunderstood?

Take care,
Y.

Wetherby
Wetherby
9 years ago

I’m tactfully assuming that English isn’t yzek’s first language…

ostara321
ostara321
9 years ago

@Regulars: brace yourself, PUA is comming.

What’s gonna happen? We get bombarded with boring pick-up lines and snidely rude “compliments”? Because none of us have ever seen that before.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

Wetherby, y’know how Jackson Pollack and Andy Warhol were actually trained artists, and Schopenhauer was a trained musician?

So I wouldn’t be so quick to assume yzek is bad with English.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

Not Schopenhauer, who was I thinking of? Shostakovich, maybe.

Cliff:

I dunno. There’s more than one guy with that story. “Rape is okay if the girl was hot” seems to be a pretty common belief that goes hand in hand with “men literally always want sex.”

True, but that specific story, even some of the wording. This isn’t idle speculation, this is amateur untrained fornesic text analysis from a dilettante.

yzek
yzek
9 years ago

@Wetherby: “English isn’t yzek’s first language”

WOW! First 100% accurate opinion about me!

Y.

PS.
1. I really hate PUA, because they mix good advice with complete BS.
2. Is there something wrong about my GoT joke except double “m”? Live and learn…

Polliwog
Polliwog
9 years ago

2. Is there something wrong about my GoT joke except double “m”? Live and learn…

I’ll assume you’re asking in good faith, and explain that without any context to indicate otherwise, it sounded more like a threat than a warning. If you post more here and people start remembering “Yzek thinks PUAs are stupid,” having that context will make people less likely to misinterpret you, but right now, you’re new, and we get enough new troll-types showing up to threaten us in idiotic ways that the context people are working from is one in which a new poster saying, “Watch out, the PUAs are coming” is more likely to mean “ha ha, you evil feminists, the PUAs will teach you a lesson!” than “It looks like idiots are descending on you guys, so be prepared.”

yzek
yzek
9 years ago

@Polliwog: thanks; I assumed my irony was obvious and got confused. I’ve already de-lurked myself before and return like Halley’s comet since then, but I never discussed PUA.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

If by “return like Halley’s comet” you mean you didn’t stick the flounce from last time, then ok, sure.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Hershele: Not Schopenhauer, who was I thinking of? Shostakovich, maybe.

Schoenberg, I suspect.

I happen to like Pollack, and be iffy on Warhol. Schoenberg was fine, IMO, before he got into atonal music. He did some symphonic works, and other minor pieces. They weren’t great, but they didn’t make me want to pour boiling lead in my ears t

Pecunium
9 years ago

Le John: In addendum, one time my gf got drunk and mounted me while I was asleep. That’s rape right? </i

Maybe. Depends on the relationship. I have partners who have said, "if you want to start something while I'm asleep, go ahead."

That's consent. If I start something, and said partner wakes, and says stop, it's still not rape. If I don't stop, it's rape.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Hersehele: If you pretend friendship after being rejected, you’ve earned the “jerk” label. It’s better to openly walk away. That’s what Pecunium did, and that’s not what makes him a jerk

Yup, it was US taxpayer dollars that paid for my becoming a professional jerk.

Fembot: @ Pecunium

You have been treated badly by women in the past and yet you are not a misogynist? What is your secret?

Not all women are like that?

I like people, and women are people?

I’m not stupid?

A mix of all of those?

Pecunium
9 years ago

Clipped comment:

Schoenberg was fine, IMO, before he got into atonal music. He did some symphonic works, and other minor pieces. They weren’t great, but they didn’t make me want to pour boiling lead in my ears to stop the pain.

MollyRen (@MollyRen)
9 years ago

I’m weak. No one is saying one isn’t entitled to “bad emotions” after rejection. The ex I mentioned… I had homicidal ideations about her. What I didn’t do was kill her. I didn’t tell her about them either. I did tell some of my friends about it.

Not gonna lie, I’ve had someone else tell me they felt homicidal towards an ex and it freaked me right out. If you’re going to feel that way about someone, they need to have like, actually attacked you or held your kids hostage or something.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

pecunium:

Hershele: Not Schopenhauer, who was I thinking of? Shostakovich, maybe.

Schoenberg, I suspect.

I happen to like Pollack, and be iffy on Warhol. Schoenberg was fine, IMO, before he got into atonal music. He did some symphonic works, and other minor pieces

That’s the one. And that’s the point I was getting at, too.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: MollyRen

Eurgh. I admit to having a brief period of homicidal rage regarding my rapist… but I knew that (A) actually doing it would achieve absolutely nothing good for him, me, or anyone, (B) I did not have the temperament to do it, and (C) IT WAS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Also, I was a hemisphere away, so it seemed pretty safe to experience the anger knowing all the while that I would never act on it. And after y’know, a couple spurts of it, I calmed down, realized the fantasies were more about punishment and anger than actually wanting to do anything with them, and let it go.

That said, I kept my mouth shut about it because it was NOT my crowning glory. At all.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Molly: Not my best times. It wasn’t persistent.

Her way of ending things wasn’t good, and for financial reasons I was stuck sharing a residence which was too small, for about 6 weeks; it was during that time, when she was being emotionally abusive, and I was an emotional wreck.

I don’t blame you if you think I was reacting out of proportion. I knew it was out of proportion. I was also sort of stuck; and isolated from any of my friends (none of whom were closer than about 400 miles away. I had no car, was underemployed, etc.

Bad times, all around.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

But apart from your opinion about me, your comment was meant for badly infatuated bloke who needs help, and not a manipulative jerk who needs radical attitude correction therapy.

You’d do well to stop thinking of those two concepts as mutually exclusive.

Also, plenty of non-manipulative non-jerks can and do benefit from therapy, “radical” or otherwise.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

“manipulative jerk who needs radical attitude correction therapy.”

Is that a real thing? And I mean a real medical thing that happens today. Because it sounds more like brainwashing, as it seems to me that very few people would seek help on the motive that they are jerks. Unless, I guess, being jerks make their life miserable.

Ithiliana
9 years ago

*peers around the blog to see if the Mocking Misogyny sign was replaced by ‘dating therapy for men who are unable to grasp women are people and seem to want some magical mystical method of getting sex'”

And, wow, definitely TMI there John boy.

Ithiliana
9 years ago

Oops, hit post too soon.

Meant to say “you all are a lot nicer about this than I’d ever be.”

Even if I hadn’t gotten p at 3:30 am to catch an early flight to Chicago and then driven all the way to Michigan for a conference.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

SorryIlliathana, was a little too early to get my snark on.

At first he just sounded confused…it wasn’t til later I realized the cascade fail of his internal thinking.

Le John
Le John
9 years ago

“*peers around the blog to see if the Mocking Misogyny sign was replaced by ‘dating therapy for men who are unable to grasp women are people and seem to want some magical mystical method of getting sex’”

And, wow, definitely TMI there John boy.”

I’d say I fully grasp most things now, for sure. This site definitely averted most misogynist tendencies I’ve ever harboured. The whole resenting not having sex after large elaborate gestures thing, is a matter of attitude that I have to change/ am changing. Though when I’m in a relationship where: ” I’ll have sex with you if you do this thing for me” Is also commonplace, sex does get devalued somewhat.

I’ll try to tone down future posts also. 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Is that a real thing? And I mean a real medical thing that happens today.

Might be real in MRA land where all therapists are evil feminist overlords, but not in the real world.

Because it sounds more like brainwashing, as it seems to me that very few people would seek help on the motive that they are jerks. Unless, I guess, being jerks make their life miserable.

Narcissists, the closest diagnosis I can think of to “being a jerk”, are really not inclined to seek help even if being a jerk is making their life miserable — then it’s either how everyone is out to get them, or that they’re in therapy for the resulting depression, not the underlying personality disorder. That’s a note from my psych major, not an attempt to Dx the MRAs.

@Le John — yeah we really don’t need all the details of your sex life, less sharing would be more good. Also, you can reply to “I’ll have sex with you if you do this thing for me” with “I’ll do that thing for you, you don’t have to give me sex in return” — and maybe try seeing the motives behind offering sex as payment for your favors, that’s still the vending machine analogy. Reread this comment by CassandraSays, namely:

Consider that if your experience (like many women’s) had been one in which you were constantly propositioned for sex by people who you weren’t at all interested in, and expected to give it as a sort of reward for good behavior, your feelings might be very different, and you might be far more inclined to turn it down.

(emphasis mine)

indifferentsky
9 years ago

Hi John. It might be more useful to think less of it as devaluing sex as devaluing the person. I know that you changed the scenario a bit to “I’ll have sex with you if you do this thing for me.” but really that does not necc devalue sex or anyone. If the person saying that knows that is something you enjoy, and they’re offering because they enjoy it, and want you to look forward to something, it’s more playful than anything. If there’s a sexual problem in the relationship where it’s a bargaining chip and not a mutual endeavor outside of that, then… that’s a problem. I’d say that the scenes here of entitlement and resentment that turn a person into an object without their own set of feelings desires and circumstances is a problem and the second scenario you propose would depend on some factors, and again, I think ‘sex being devalued’ as a concept is problematic.

Interesting posts. You’re not the only male that manboobz has switched on lightbulbs for. 🙂

Le John
Le John
9 years ago

“Consider that if your experience (like many women’s) had been one in which you were constantly propositioned for sex by people who you weren’t at all interested in, and expected to give it as a sort of reward for good behavior, your feelings might be very different, and you might be far more inclined to turn it down.”

I agree with that. But does it ever turn into blatant manipulation?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Le John, how’s “you don’t want to have sex with me tonight then I must be a terrible ugly person no one will ever love” sound as manipulation? (That ex turned out to be rapetastic, so I’m far too sure that “no” was lost on this one)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

If the person saying that knows that is something you enjoy, and they’re offering because they enjoy it, and want you to look forward to something, it’s more playful than anything. If there’s a sexual problem in the relationship where it’s a bargaining chip and not a mutual endeavor outside of that, then… that’s a problem.

QFT, it’s one thing if it’s just playing around, my previous post excluded that option and was assuming it was a bargaining chip but a joke.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

but? brain wtf is that? that should say “and was assuming it was a bargaining chip not a joke.”

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Le John, why the need to focus on someone elses potential manipulation? Especially right after being shown your manipulation?

Le John
Le John
9 years ago

WellLe John, how’s “you don’t want to have sex with me tonight then I must be a terrible ugly person no one will ever love” sound as manipulation? (That ex turned out to be rapetastic, so I’m far too sure that “no” was lost on this one).

Sounds pretty manipulately to Le John, and I’m sorry he turned out to be rapetastic.
But.
Sometimes, I work out in front of her, talk to other females have a laugh, etc. I know these have a strong influence on the late night procedings.
Sometimes I do it on purpose, other times I don’t.
Was your ex, in total despair when he said it or, being a conniving little rat?
Is there a difference?

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Please drop the “females” thing. Women are women, not subhumans or animals. You’re broadcasting misogynist every time you use female as reference to women.

Le John
Le John
9 years ago

I’m sorry. I’m fairly comfortable with the term males, and never thought it would be any different for women. To qualify I also feel uncomfortable using the term women, because I’m quite young, and so is she.- I don’t quite feel old enough to use the term.

ideologuereview
9 years ago

You’re broadcasting misogynist every time you use female as reference to women.

I’m fairly comfortable with the term males, and never thought it would be any different for women.

Wow, feminists sure do make a lot of stupid assumptions.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

There are so many ways to refer to women and girls, girlfriends ect than female. We aren’t animals. Find a word like ladyfriend or something and use it please.

Jesus! Are you also stuck using the N word to refer to Black people too?