I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.
Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:
[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.
Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it. (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)
Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting “friendzoned” in the first place.
Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.
Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.
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* Hetero cis penis only.
Nanasha, may I please steal this line — “my physical anatomy doesn’t like orgasming in the presence of strangers”?
@Argenti Aertheri
Feel free- it took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that while I can orgasm quite well and often when left to my own devices, the average potential sex partner who I don’t know very well seems to do very little to inspire mind-blowing pleasure in my nether regions.
Some people might argue that all the people I have been with just suck, but I honestly had the same problem when I first got intimate with my husband, and at this point in our relationship, we have amazingly pleasurable sex- so I think it has to do more with knowing and trusting my partner that finally allows my body to respond favorably.
I think the whole notion of “friend zoning” is bullshit. Throughout my teenage years I showed a romantic interest in a couple of girls who I knew who ended showing no romantic interest for me whatsoever. Once I got over myself I realised that I had made some very close friends, who I loved (platonically) and cherished dearly, and they’re some of the closest and longest lasting friendships I’ve ever had. I even consider one, who I’m particularly close with, to be like a sister. Which is great for us, because she grew up with a sister and has never had a brother, and I grew up with a brother and never had a sister. But now I do, and she has a younger brother. It’s a lovely place to be in.
DCD.
“so I think it has to do more with knowing and trusting my partner that finally allows my body to respond favorably” — yes *that*! and thank you for that line, it should be exactly enough TMI the next time someone tries playing match-maker for me (and out of context it has that certain air of “and this is not up for discussion”)
I just wanted to drop of an example of creative statistics interpretations on a blog comments section I happened to click “notify me of comments” on a few weeks ago.
http://skepticalcubefarm.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/the-problem-with-the-mens-rights-movement/
Look for the comments starting May 6 (they’re replies, just use the find function to search that date) A dude actually cites his source about women committing rape against men, but misinterprets it to read as though a huge percentage of rapes committed against men were by women. Classic stuff.
Ok, now reading the article haha.
Here is a “nice guy” anthem I just sang at karaoke the other night.
Jessay, thanks for that link. Skeptical Cube Farmer’s rebuttal to the misuse of that CDC report is extremely useful; MRAs bring it up all the time.
“It turns out that if you actually talk to people about what you’re feeling, you have a lot less trauma! And when you don’t approach relationships with a sense of entitlement, you can have really good friends! Amazing, isn’t it?”
Yes, Burgundy, this! Exactly this!!! I love it! I also love that you were able to remain friends with these guys, because you never felt any sense of entitlement. No offense David, you are so one of the real good guys, but even you have been conditioned to feel that way if only at a sub-conscious level. Which is why I mostly get angry at these guys behavior and not the men themselves, unless, y’know, they invest significant time and bandwidth calling women whores to ease their “pain.”
It’s not entirely the individuals fault that they are enable to maintain friendships after rejection of/by the parties involved. We are taught from a really young age, I mean toddler young, that relationships are sort of competition. With our “princess” culture that is still very alive and well because all the right people (economically and culturally) are invested it, young women are taught that they are prizes to be won, and young men that they have to go out and win them. Most people do not take it anywhere near as literally as that, but there is a subtle pressure from the time you are young. Women have been rejecting it, because, well, they’ve been on the short end of the privilege stick. But even the “lonely” guys who get rejected still buy in because at least as males, they get something out of the privilege game and they don’t want to risk changing that. Again, it’s not always, or even often, overt, but it is there.
The good news is, we can pull ourselves out of that cycle. I have been lucky enough to remain friends, or at least friendly, with all the women and all but two of the men I have fallen in love with. There is an adjustment, of course. There will be tension, but if you really value a friendship you can do it. Mostly it requires getting past our need for instant gratification. Not easy, to be sure, but you can take time “out” from each other without losing touch completely. Indeed you should take a little time out, just give both of you some breathing room, and then, and this is the hard part, spend a lot of time together and if you are the romantically inclined party, suck it up and take the achy heart, because after awhile, all their little quirks will remind you that, “hey, he/she is just a person, not this idea that I’ve built up in my head!” Of course, this is just my little hypothesis, but it’s worked for me.
Oh, and keep other people out of it. Seriously, because as well meaning as they will be, they will screw it up. Your pals will tell you “just be patient, he/she will change her mind” or “forget about him/her, you don’t need them.” And really, really, keep parents out of it. That last bit is more from my own experiences. Their moms always love me and pressure them, and that causes some really un-fun tension. 😀
Long time lurker here. Hello all. I saw a really good meme recently that went:
“WHAT IF I TOLD YOU / that friendzoning is bullshit because girls are not machines that you put kindness coins into until sex falls out”.
I like it because it hits that nail on the head (like, boom) and also because the formula is usefully transposable – as is the nature of memes, obviously, but I mean with regards to reminding myself of easily-lost-sight of relationship truths too – for instance, about compromise being all very well, but actually, human interactions aren’t slot machines into which you insert compromise until commitment comes out – ahem – not that I’m mired in the thickets of hopeless compromise, OBVIOUSLY.
My biggest advice to someone who believes they’re trapped in a “friendzone” is to just go ahead and confess your feelings to the other person, and the sooner, the better. There is the possibility you’ll get rejected, and that’s a bummer, but the risk is worth it in case the other person feels the same way for you.
That’s what I had to do to hook up with my husband. We would hang out a lot, but everything was platonic. He later told me he was way too nervous to ever ask me out, so we would just spend time together as friends. I wanted more, so I flat up told him so and asked him out on a real date. He happily accepted and we ended up as a couple. If he had said no, it would have stung but at least I would have known. I think not knowing is worse than rejection.
It’s so weird. I was in love with one of my friends from the ages of 11 to 21. Completely, obsessively, all that stuff. Not that I ever brought it to the forefront, of course, heavens no. Anyway, turns out he’s a gay man and I’m a hetero woman, so that wasn’t going to work out. My point, though, is that I don’t feel angry at him, or like that was “wasted time” or anything. What I feel is, “Yeah, he is/was really an awesome person! No wonder I had such a thing for him! Go him!” With a side of, “Yeah, I really have awesome taste in men! Go me!”
We’re not especially close now, but we’re still in touch, and I value that a lot. So, was I friendzoned, or what?
It’s ridiculous for men to continually hang around women, who only want to be friends with them, in order to have a chance at a romantic relationship, then claim victim status when the romance never blossoms. Move on, guys.
I wonder if it is just MRAs who use “friend-zone” this way, or react to it this way.
I grew up with the term “friend-zone” bounced around a lot, but it didn’t carry nearly this sort of anger. It was simply that case where the person you desired liked you, but didn’t desire you back. It carried a bit of the sense that once someone thought of you as a friend and not a lover, there was no passing from one to the other (something I’ve since discovered to not really be true, as life is more complicated than that) but not this sense of betrayal.
Sure, it was to be avoided, since the theory was that once they thought of you as a friend they would never think of you as a lover, but that meant this whole “pretend to be her friend and then get mad” storyline wasn’t really an issue. There was probably a hint of the “girls only like jerks” storyline underpinning it, but again, not this vitriol. It existed, you hoped to avoid it if you were interested in that girl, and you moved on with your day.
As I said, the whole thing makes me wonder if the term has in general been turned into this entitlement-based rage production or whether it’s just the MRAs who have magnified it through their prism of anger at all things involving women making their own choices, and the more benign sense of the term still exists.
Okay entitled dudes, here’s how not be be friendzoned and end up as an embittered asshole.
1. Do not seek a ‘friendship’ with a woman for the sole purpose of trying to get into her pants. This is not a real friendship. This is a creepy, manipulative tactic that rarely works because women are *gasp* people with their own likes and dislikes and will make choices based on those likes and dislikes. If you’re one of those dudes who believe that women and men cannot be friends because of biology or Evo-Psych or some other shit, don’t try. It won’t end well for you or for her.
2. If you feel an attraction towards a woman, be upfront about it. If she feels the same way, then yay! Go for it. If not, don’t think that if you continue to do little things for her and be the ‘Nice Guy’ that she’ll suddenly come around. She probably won’t because she isn’t attracted to you in that way. So unless you enjoy the feeling of frustration and bitterness, move on to someone who is attracted to you.
3. Nobody owes you shit for performing the actions of a decent human being, so stop expecting it. This goes for several areas in life, not just male/female relationships. This will also make you a happier person because if you go around doing good deeds for the hope of a reward, you’re going to be constantly disappointed which will lead to frustration and anger, and bitterness.
4. If you feel you’re being taken advantage of, you probably are. Just cut the person off and move on. Don’t rage and pout about it because it happens to everybody, men and women alike. There are indeed exploitative assholes out there of both genders. It’s okay to say no.
That’s exactly the position my wife was in when we first got together. She thought I was “friendzoning” her but I was actually into her, just being really really cautious because I was on the rebound. Finally I could just read it, completely unambiguously, on her face, and I fessed up to spare her any more agony.
Still happily together 20 years later.
@Christine:
Huh. You know, you reminded me of something. Back in high school I dated this really sweet guy for a few months, until he told me he loved me and I realized that, not only did I not love him back, but I wasn’t ever going to. I liked him lots, and I enjoyed the time we spent together, but my feelings weren’t likely to deepen beyond that. So I started thinking about maybe calling it off.
My mom was 100% against it. How could I do that to him? He hadn’t done anything wrong! She was really disappointed in me for quite a while after I broke up with him. My own mom bought into the notion that if a guy is nice enough to a woman, he deserves affection for it; that not being with a man is a punishment, not a neutral action, and as such requires better justification than “I’m just not that into him.” And she’s considered herself a feminist for the last 30+ years!
@ Viscaria
I’ve encountered that “but he’s being nice and everything, why can’t you give him a chance?” attitude from other women before, and it’s always so odd. Not only because on a practical level doing so it probably just going to result in still rejecting someone, but later, when they’re more attached to you, but because seriously how do women who consider themselves feminists make statements like that without being aware how many levels of sexism they’re buying into, and how much they’re reinforcing the idea that men should be rewarded with sex and affection for being decent people and this is fine because it’s not like women have preferences or a libido anyway, and having either of those things makes you selfish.
Holy run-on sentence. Sorry about that – need coffee.
Yes, a world of this. It’s incredibly shitty to realize that you’ve fallen for a manipulator, but (and I am speaking from personal experience here) continuing to let a manipulator use you will just hurt you more and more and more. There is no amount of “nice” you can be to get someone who is perfectly comfortable taking advantage of you to stop taking advantage of you. Best to cut them off quickly before it festers.
If I did the math right*, 79 percent of 4.8 percent of 22 percent = 1.3 percent of the total cases of rape.
That’s the percentage of rape victims who are made to penetrate women.
That’s what the absolute percentage is, the one that people who either misunderstand stats, or are being dishonest, represent as “79 percent of male rape victims”.
*I am not great at math, so I may have built the equation incorrectly.
As someone who has had one-sided attractions towards some of her guy friends, the whining about the friend-zone has become pretty tiresome. I noticed that it is often tied into the whole myth of men not being able to be just friends with women. This is where the extra sexism kicks in. If I went to Reddit and lamented being forever alone or friend-zoned, they would have zero sympathy for me. They would probably tell me that I was fat, ugly, and/or crazy, because those are the only reasons a guy wouldn’t want to be with a girl. They set it up so that women can’t win. Guy can’t get a girl? Her fault. Girl can’t get a guy? Still her fault.
What does each of these number represent?
And I don’t understand what operation you did.
79/100 * 4.8/100 * 22/100 = 0.83%
But then again I don’t really know what you’re calculating.
Percunium, I’m getting the same % Kyrie did, but I can’t figure out your source numbers either.
@Kyrie: Pecunium wrote the same comment on my blog – he was addressing the misuse of statistics by an MRA who was attempting to show that women are ‘just as guilty – if not more guilty’ than men of sexual violence. The Blog is here: http://skepticalcubefarm.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/the-problem-with-the-mens-rights-movement/ and Pecunium’s comments are at the bottom. The source of all of this data can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf which was a source provided by the MRA commenter to support his claims. You can find his comments on my blog as well, under the name: ‘Egalitarian’.
Hope that helps to clear this up!