I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.
Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:
[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.
Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it. (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)
Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting “friendzoned” in the first place.
Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.
Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.
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* Hetero cis penis only.
Seriously Vindicare? You don’t see how resorting to begging for sex is ethically wrong? And kind of rape like if you manage to coerce consent that way? Coercion is bad, that’s not slippery at all.
@katz — I don’t eat fish, eating things closely related to my pets doesn’t sit well with me, so I wouldn’t have a clue how to safely prepare raw fish. The lack of food poisoning risk really is a big perk in my mind.
When I was in India for less than a week, I met more people begging for money than in my entire life. I have to admit, after a short time, it became annoying, I even became angry, but you can be assured that I was happy that they just begged and didn’t really coerce me to give them money.
Did the beggars beg you to do somthing physical or just give them money? did you have any sort of ongoing relationship with any of the beggars?
Could you walk away from any particular beggar, or did they live in your house?
I bet the beggars were physically bigger and stronger than him too, and that they lived in his hotel room.
And that’s exactly why I said “down the slippery slope” …
Those were differences that struck me between your beggars-for-money and my experience of a lover “begging for sex” til I gave in.
Eh, I’m not in the mood to engage with a “there is no context” troll. Have another music video.
Vindicare, no one, anywhere, ever, is going to give an exact list of what you can’t do — we’re all too familiar with the abusers who will creatively find ways to avoid doing those things while still being vile assholes.
Is it only rape then if ze’s beaten? Said no but gave in so as not to be beaten further? Gave in so as not to be beaten? Said stop but not no? Had previously had sex with the person but said no this time? Previous sex and said stop this time?
No wonder MRAs think so many rape accusations are false….(most of those are legal rape in most states btw, and all are legal rape in at least a couple of states)
Vindicare: And down the slippery slope we slide…
I’ll take the definitions which are about consent to the ones you, and yours, try to use; where the victim has to show that force was used (both to initiate, and to resist) before anyone can entertain the idea of rape.
The fact, well that’s a whole ‘nother issue, and one that MRAs tend to feel is impossible, in the real world, so rape is just one of those things feminists like to pretend is a problem.
Yeah, funny, Cassandra, and I’m sorry that I thought this would be a grown-up discussion
It might be, if you actually said anything: snide one-liners intended as “gotchas” with no real content doesn’t count. You have to have content.
Re sashimi: In the US anything which is listed as, “sushi-grade” has been flash frozen, and so is completely safe for the home cook to use (excepting tuna; which has no pathogens people can get; well, no parasites, salmonella, and other food poisoning is still a risk).
If you are getting truly fresh, that’s a different thing.
Cassandra: TJ’s has sushi grade maguro for about 16 a lb. Not the best blocks for sashimi (the cut is meant for “steaks”), but with a sharp knife, and some appreciation of how it works sashimi can be made. I’ve done it, it’s not that hard (though I do have the “correct” knives, which helps; as does being able to get them at least as sharp as any sushi-ya).
music AND kitties
http://procatinator.com/
I appreciate the tips, but I’m picky. I’d rather have no sashimi at all rather than sashimi that’s just OK.
(This derail is oddly applicable to the main conversation, huh?)
@Magpie — http://procatinator.com/?cat=20 — haven’t heard that in forever, excellent!
Argenti Aertheri, I understand you, if I had the experiences you have, I’ll probably end up there too. But you have to be careful before you decide to declare that “begging for sex is kinda like rape”. That, by any measure, goes to far, if you phrased it like “be careful that your begging…”, ok.
I mean what’s “begging”? Is it already “We didn’t have sex for three month, if nothing changes, I’ll leave you.”?
But shouldn’t those ‘rules’ be adressed to people who have good intentions, anyway?
I wondered when anyone was going to say that. 😉
Vindicare: But shouldn’t those ‘rules’ be adressed to people who have good intentions, anyway?
Nope. Those rules should be addressed to everyone. The people with good intentions won’t have a problem with it, and those with bad intentions won’t be able to game the system.
As to the, “We’ve not had sex in ‘x’ period of time”. Depends on context. If I’m not getting what I need, and am going to leave if my needs can’t be met, then by any reasonable measure I am allowed (even encouraged) to talk about it.
But if it’s not really something I’m going to leave over, then threatening to, or using that as a bargaining chip is morally wrong.
This is a situation where motives matter, and where conflicting needs may dictate a breakup.
Cassandra: 99 Ranch Markets have decent fish, in tolerably well shaped blocks. I’ve made pretty good sushi from them.
Otherwise, go to Ebisu. 🙂
Oh, I know where to get the good stuff (not from 99 Ranch), but like I said, it’s expensive! The cheaper stuff just isn’t worth bothering, imo.
Like I said – picky!
Vindicare — “Is it already “We didn’t have sex for three month, if nothing changes, I’ll leave you.”?” — can you really not see the difference between having an adult conversation about how much sex is being had versus “if you don’t have sex with me right now I will leave you”? But really, in the adult world, there comes a point at which you should just walk away.
And my frustration in my long bolded comment, had you properly read it, was my being glad the not-a-FWB is not just walking away, because I do actually want to be friends with zir
Pecunium — he’s looking for exactly wtf he can’t do, and I’ve met that type in real life, if you give a list, he will find a way to violate boundaries without violating the list. The basic principles of respect and consent are better, in my mind at least. (If you’ve ever had someone call you insulting things and then get all “why are you raising your voice, I’m perfectly calm” you’ll know what I mean)
now to figure out where that link of Vindicare’s is…
Vindicare, were you sockpuppeting for the link I’m looking for? My search button isn’t finding it.
Argenti: Pecunium — he’s looking for exactly wtf he can’t do, and I’ve met that type in real life,
I know. Me too. In lots of contexts. It’s why principles are better than rules for some things.
It’s always fascinating to me that people like this seem to genuinely believe that their motives in asking these particular questions in this particular way are well hidden, when in fact they’re obvious to almost everyone reading.
Hell, I was raised by someone like that.
It’s also a pretty common troll tactic around here.
http://www.yesstyle.com.au/en/sofu-im-a-good-man-print-t-shirt-white-xl/info.html/pid.1030896818
for the man with ‘good intentions’