I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.
Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:
[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.
Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it. (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)
Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting “friendzoned” in the first place.
Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.
Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.
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* Hetero cis penis only.
@LBT, I probably should have used another form of the phrase, since “necessary” can be interpreted as “necessary to you” rather than to “the condition”.
I like the baked alaska comparison. (Although I personally don’t like baked alaska since I don’t like meringue *grin*. This insight into my dessert tastes is entirely beside the point.)
pillowinhell,
“Ah kilo, that kind of understandable is only understandable if you accept the idea that the other person must give you what you want.”
I’m not so sure. I can’t really say much about anger, because I’m very difficult to anger, and the last time I can remember being rage-y even for a minute was in my early teens, and it took someone weeks of hitting me to get me to that point. It’s just not in my nature. So in your example, no it would not make sense to me that you should be angry at the bird. I could understand it if you were angry at the situation. I think you shouldn’t be, because it’s unproductive, but I would not judge you for that, because I do not know what it is like to be quick to anger, and don’t want to needlessly judge people for their nature. Now, if you were angry at the situation and as a result would treat the bird badly, I would understand how you came to be that way, but I would disapprove of it, and find it inexcusable.
@LC, sorry if my wording is confusing, English is not my native language and I like complicated phrasings too much. 🙂
I find it fascinating that you are sexually attracted to almost everyone who is nice to you.
There may well be some selection bias involved. Usually me finding out that someone is nice happens together with finding out that they are amazing in other ways, be it being really interesting, or funny, or easy to talk to or whatever. Also, it’s perhaps better to say “more attracted than before”, usually ending somewhere around “wouldn’t mind, but will neither act toward it in any way nor mind if nothing ever happens”. Also, maybe I’m just kinda desperate.
re: the “it’s a common experience”, it is, but only for some people. there was a discussion about this some time ago on nswatm, and some said that they couldn’t imagine that happening and for others it was common.
@kilo LC, sorry if my wording is confusing, English is not my native language and I like complicated phrasings too much. 🙂
No worries. I’m fond of an overcomplicated sentence or six sometimes. 🙂
Also, it’s perhaps better to say “more attracted than before”, usually ending somewhere around “wouldn’t mind, but will neither act toward it in any way nor mind if nothing ever happens”.
Ahh. That seems entirely unsurprising to me. Since I love to eat, my friends often joke that I am slightly more attracted to anyone who brings me food, and they aren’t really wrong. *grin*
re: the “it’s a common experience”, it is, but only for some people. there was a discussion about this some time ago on nswatm, and some said that they couldn’t imagine that happening and for others it was common.
Finding someone you like to be more attractive once you like them? People were saying they couldn’t imagine that? Fascinating. I don’t think I can name a single one of my friends and acquaintances I’ve ever had a conversation along those lines who wouldn’t agree with that. I thought it was a pretty universal experience. Different intensity levels, sure, but “find them more attractive once you get to know and like them and find out they are awesome” pretty much held as a universal. Not every person and not all the time, but certainly not every person to the point you would actually want to have sex with them, but a general shift to more attractive, absolutely.
Going from “not attracted to “attracted”; sorry, I was to lazy to quote that in context . And yes, people were saying that. It started mostly about here: http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/open-thread-cant-sleep-liberals-will-eat-me-edition/#comment-33733
I think that my lack of having a clue wtf Baked Alaska is only makes me like this analogy more.
@LC — with MRAs at least I wouldn’t be surprised if they really don’t find women more attractive once they get to know them, because nothing any woman does is ever good enough by them. They should perhaps invest in blow up dolls or fleshlights if they want a partner that has no other interests besides sex and making them a sandwich. I almost think AntZ VR woman would be best for everyone, it’s the only way they’ll ever get a woman as one-dimensional as they seem to want.
That is, with non-assholes, I think you’re quite right about “Different intensity levels, sure, but “find them more attractive once you get to know and like them and find out they are awesome” pretty much held as a universal.” — with assholes and MRAs, they never decide their partner is awesome, but rather decide that *gasp* she has interests besides his penis, thus she must be a bitch.
Then again, I can’t wrap my head around how all women are supposed to be available and interested in all men….but virgins….but good in bed…but no experience….clearly the virgin/whore dichotomy is alive and well in them.
Argenti, even the MRA thing is the same concept. As you know someone, their personality becomes part of what you do or don’t find attractive to them. I’m sure someone somewhere never has that be an element, but I’d be surprised if it isn’t incredibly rare. I don’t know anyone who has their attraction to people dictated solely by their physical looks. (For a person, sure. For ALL people? That seems incredibly unlikely to me.)
Anyway, it’s not an important point, it was only that the original wording confused me, and kilo has explained that, so all good. 🙂
LC — “As you know someone, their personality becomes part of what you do or don’t find attractive to them.” — agreed, I was just musing if MRAs all default to “don’t find attractive” when they realize women have interests in things that aren’t their dicks. At least online they seem to default to “stuck up bitch”.
I am not the MRA scholar some of you are though.
Argenti: Baked Alaska is a dessert of ice cream placed in meringue, which is then baked until the meringue is browned, but still soft (a la lemon meringue pie), and served while the meringue is still warm.
A dessert without chocolate? That’d explain why I had no clue what it is! (Thank you for explaining though)
Baked Alaska is nice, pavlova is better. Fried icecream is good too.
I’ve only ever seen fried ice cream at Japanese restaurants, but I’ll give it a go if I remember, it’ll probably be a good while before I can afford sushi though.
And for some on topic things — I appear to be in the friendzone! I was hoping for another FWB as ze was a fun random make out session, but am glad we’re still friends at least. Le John, anyone else going “but isn’t it frustrating?” well yes, but I’d rather be frustrated than resemble zir’s rapey ex. (Ok, I could use that ice cream, but I’ll get over it)
Also, so what if it’s frustrating? We can’t always get what we want, and learning how to deal with that without throwing tantrums and trying to force other people to go along with whatever you want just to shut you up is part of being an adult.
Using Argenti’s example, it frustrates me that I can’t afford to eat sushi every day! But sushi grade tuna is expensive, and such is life.
Good grief, I know your heart is in the right place or at least I assume it is, but you want to be careful with comments like this, Cassandra. I know some people, adults btw, who wouldn’t take your sushi comparisons as easy as I do.
You can make a sort of cheating fried ice cream by moulding sliced bread around a ball of icecream (and freezing it really hard) at home.
@Cassandra — I’m going to pick apart your first paragraph, but it’s because I agree not the usual snarking of manboobz, just a heads up before I start (I note this as my thoughts on it are backwards of logical trains of thought…it’ll make sense in a moment)
@Everyone —
Either nothing, boundary violations that will get you “yeah no, I can’t be friends with you” or flat out rape.
Especially since there’s a world of difference between the child whining that they want ice cream and an adult whining that you owe them sex, the latter is rape — maybe not legally, but certainly under the “was there consent? if not, it’s rape” definition. So just don’t.
Go have your tantrum alone, or to your psych, or go have a beer or some ice cream or tea or whatever it is you do. Just don’t have a temper tantrum at your partner for not providing sexytimes on demand, especially since a grown man having a temper tantrum is goddamned terrifying. Where yep, you probably can get her to verbally say “yes” to sexytimes, because at least then you’ll stop screaming at her and well if I just do it and get it over with….
Do not do this!
@Cassandra — I’m fond of celery and carrot sushi myself, which is fairly cheap to make if you can roll a sushi roll (which I personally don’t find too hard, but ymmv). And sorry for the weird split up comment, I am annoyed, though mostly at zir’s rapey ex (I’m thinking asking why I got friendzoned is probably in bad taste, but I can’t help but think these are related facts)
Hey MRAs? The rapist ex in question is a woman, and I’m a feminist who’s mad at her, care to acknowledge that?
lol, I think I’m going to take my own advice and make myself some tea.
Shit, I didn’t close my bold tag, I keep failing html today despite having learned it back in the damned 90s >.<
It’s the fish I love (I actually prefer sashimi, but that’s even more expensive, hence settling for sushi), so the veggie sushi wouldn’t really work. Not sure why, but I really prefer fish either raw or as close to raw as possible, with only a few exceptions.
And yeah, I really hate the argument that whining at someone to give you sex isn’t actually rape, so it’s OK. Is it legally rape? No. Is it in any way ethically acceptable? NO. Especially since you’re basically treating a person like the candy bar which you were whining for at the store at age 5, but also as mommy/gatekeeper, which produces a level of mindfuck in the person being whined at and begged that has all sorts of nasty long-term effects.
And down the slippery slope we slide…
Re: sushi — oh, I’m not going to try arguing with your taste buds then! You can maybe find somewhere that sells pre-made rolls if you’re in a major city, but ymmv on that.
Also, really, the begging to have access to someone’s body? So much worse than begging for, say, half their sushi. More like begging to whip someone who isn’t remotely into that (or isn’t interested in that with you, or right now). They’re both rather rape like, so just don’t.
@CassandraSays 😀
I’m always leery about making my own sushi because I’m not near a fish market or anything and I’m never sure about the freshness of grocery store fish; another advantage of vegetable sushi, I suppose.
Yeah, funny, Cassandra, and I’m sorry that I thought this would be a grown-up discussion. 😉
A grown up conversation requires at least 2 grownups, sweetie. Unfortunately that makes it impossible for anyone to have one with you.
@ katz
I wouldn’t advise making sushi unless you have access to super-fresh fish. Not only because of the health risks, but because it just won’t taste right. I have access to the right sort of markets, but maguro is still about $25 a pound, hence not something I can eat every day.