I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.
Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:
[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.
Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it. (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)
Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting “friendzoned” in the first place.
Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.
Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.
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* Hetero cis penis only.
Why did i read the comments to that post? Please, men, tell me moar.
I guess you could say that there are two kinds of friend zones: the kind where the “nice guy” (or gal) is nice as a means to an end, and where there isn’t a real mutual friendship; and the kind in which the “friendzoned” person actually does like the person as a friend, but is also in unrequited love/lust with the other person. And there are countless cases where it’s sort of a mixture of the two.
Years ago, I had a really bad crush on a friend of mine that was mostly group B, but with some A in there as well. We did become pretty good friends, and might have remained so except for the fact that was also obsessed with her romantically, and that basically ruined it for us as friends.
Either way, it’s not a healthy dynamic for either party in that kind of friendship.
Myoo: I know! Plus “women just want thugboys,” “lol I can tell a woman wrote this post,” “I’M NOT SEXIST!” and about a billion people referring to women as “females.” (But it’s Facebook linked, so I can’t chip in any balancing sanity.)
I’ve never been friendzoned.
I have often been interested in a woman and not had it go anywhere, but I never felt she was deliberately refraining from reciprocating in order to string me along. I never felt “stuck” having to “settle for” friendship; I never felt that I couldn’t walk away if I wasn’t interested in a small-r relationship that wasn’t a Relationship; I never felt the woman was to blame for not picking up my tacit signals.
I’ve also never had a woman unload about all the shit her string of boyfriends did to her, then turn to me and say “gosh, Hershele, I really wish I could find someone just like you.” But I suspect none of these dudes have either.
I’ve had people inappropriately unload about their string of shitty partners to me, but my thought was always less “this person is cruelly sexually teasing me and they know just what they’re doing” and more “this person is oblivious to how boring and awkward this conversation is for me.”
Oh god, I should not have gone over there to read the comments.
I suddenly feel the need for a video of an inflatable dog:
In my experience, I do tend to like creating friendships with guys that I’m potentially interested in, but generally that’s on the table- “let’s see where this goes.” However, I make it VERY clear to these people when things don’t seem to work out and then check in with them about what they want to do next- keep up with the friendship or go separate ways.
I think it’s messed up to lead someone on, but it’s just as stupid to stick around when it’s obvious that it’s not working.
My husband and I met and we had a kind-of spark, but I wanted to get to know him as a person before even considering more than that. We were friends for a good year (with plenty of sexual tension on both of our parts), but eventually, it just fell into place, and we both finally admitted it to each other.
I think that in some situations, people want to not only find a sex partner, but a person who can be a great friend in addition to all the tingly pants stuff. But I do think that honesty and openness is absolutely essential to making sure that both of you are on the same page.
Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension.
This is indeed good advice for not getting “friendzoned,” because if a man did this to me I would definitely not want to be friends with him.
The friendzone thing is closely related to a phenomenon I’ve seen on dating sites where guys get PISSED if you don’t want to date them. I get at least one angry message a week where a guy will send me a message saying “Sup, wanna go out?” and if I respond that we don’t really seem compatible then the response is pure rage. Because, you see, if you are a single woman than you must be open to a relationship with ay man who pays any interest to you. If you have any sort of standards or sense of attraction then you are being a bitch.
The friendzone seems related in that the idea seems to be that if a woman likes you enough to spend time with you then, obviously, she should also want to sleep with you, date you, and marry you. The idea that a woman might have different standards for “friend” “one-night-stand” “boyfriend” and “husband” is foreign to them. I am unsure where this idea comes from other than just general male entitlement. But I wonder if they carry it over to other areas of their life, also getting “ragey” when they don’t get a job they wanted or a promotion or a grade. Do they have this view of everyone as owing them things, or is it just women?
Oh not everyone, just women get the special rage.
Let’s just hope Anthony doesn’t get friendzoned by his Virtual dream girl the moment she’s finished. Maybe there’s an app for that?
Missy, I started to form some theory about where that issue understanding women have standards comes from, something about monogamy being the standard….and then I read “ragey” as “rapey” and that kinda makes more sense >.< (plenty of men manage to be monogamous with one woman and friends with others after all)
I feel bad for whoever this girl is (if this actually happened). It must suck to have someone you though was a friend suddenly flip out of you and reveal that all the time you spent together was just a horrible ordeal that they put up with because they wanted to get something out of here. You know who does shit like that? Tom Riddle’s magic evil diary, that’s who.
@Missy- This is why I am fairly certain that I would basically refuse to use online dating if I ever found myself single. Actually, I honestly think that I would never date again if I found myself single. I mean, sex with someone I really love and enjoy sexually is great, but it’s very hard for me to find someone like that, and I am very slow to trust people.
Besides, who needs to wade through all the asshats in the world when I have a perfectly non-asshole vibrator at home to help me scratch the horniness itch?
I love my husband more than anyone in the world, but I honestly think that if he were to not be in my life for whatever reason, there’s just no one who could really replace him ever.
Someone breaks your heart by hurting you, by cheating on you or absuing you. No one “breaks your heart” simply by being unresponsive to your sexual attraction.
And I`m a straight guy who once bought into that Nice Guy mentality myself.
There was this guy in college I was friends with, and really into, and we had great sexual chemistry and lots of people thought we were a couple, and one time we started making out but I’d had garlic pizza earlier in the day and he couldn’t deal with it, so we stopped, and I always figured we’d be able to pick it up at some point, but instead he ended up going out with my best friend/roommate. I found out that he couldn’t get sexually involved with someone who was “too good of a friend,” and sometime after the garlic pizza incident I had passed that threshold. It was actually pretty upsetting, but that was mostly because of the total lack of communication and having them making out in front of me without notice. But that was college, when people are dumb. I never got mad at him, and we stayed friends.
Several years later, I got a huge crush on a guy who was also a very good friend of mine. I finally worked up the nerve to broach the subject, and he turned me down in what was possibly the most graceful manner possible, so that after the conversation I still felt very happy and loved, even though we were just going to stay good friends.
Right now I am quasi-dating this guy that I’ve been friends with for several months. We’re both in the “you’re really awesome and I’m attracted to you, so let’s get to know each other better and see where we want to take it” place. We talk about it explicitly, and we agreed that even if we don’t end up actually dating, we want to continue spending time together.
It turns out that if you actually talk to people about what you’re feeling, you have a lot less trauma! And when you don’t approach relationships with a sense of entitlement, you can have really good friends! Amazing, isn’t it?
Depends on if they have someone convenient to blame. Not long ago. A Facebook “friend” didn’t get the job he wanted, and he ranted about how he should have given a Spanish name, and how illegal immigrants were stealing all the jobs. Right, asshole, you want a $20 an hour job with benefits, and those are the jobs that illegal immigrants are stealing.
Franklin:
That doesn’t make them magically not be wrong about being owed something, especially something other than friendship, for engaging in friend-type behaviors.
The “friendzone” concept is based in the idea of women as vending machines. Saying “well, maybe these guys were expecting chips, not soda” doesn’t make the idea of women as vending machines any more sensible.
“The “friendzone” concept is based in the idea of women as vending machines. Saying “well, maybe these guys were expecting chips, not soda” doesn’t make the idea of women as vending machines any more sensible.”
I wanted to repeat this for emphasis. I really hate the entitled, douchebag attitude that goes with the “friendzone” true believers. I put favors in, why does this woman not vend what I want?
Hershele:
You’re right, and I admitted as much when Cliff called me on the same point. The point I was trying to make was that disappointment at rejection need neither be sexual nor imply expectation. I have clearly underestimated the extent to which the concept of the ‘friendzone’ specifically hinges on a misplaced assumption of obligation, and not simply regret that a feeling is not reciprocated, and as such have missed the mark somewhat. My bad.
Crumbelievable:
I believe there are many more ways to break hearts than those that you have listed, but, taking into account the above revisions to my understanding of the ‘friendzone’ – a term I was treating a little too nebulously – I can agree that we’re not dealing with a heartbreak scenario here. Again, my bad.
@Fembot:
Well, sometimes. Some women reject the romantic advances of Nice Guy ™ types and, afterwards, hear something along the lines of “but no one else can see your inner beauty the way I can!” which, in some cases, seems to translate roughly to “you’re too ugly for anyone else to fuck! I’m doing you a favour by overlooking it!”
Anyway, I have no issue with anyone’s druthers when they’re selecting sexual or romantic partners. If our Nice Guy has a really specific physical type he goes for, that’s cool. It’s just when he resents the fact that women would dare to also have physical preferences that my back gets up.
@Nanasha- The internet dating thing is really sort of a hit or miss, with lots of misses. But you can ignore the asshats easily enough. They don’t know your email or phone number so you just block them from the site and it’s okay.
I’m going on 4 years single. I’ve had some dates and hookups during that time but no real relationships. On one had it really depresses me when I go to the movies alone or go out on a picnic in the park by myself and see all the couples. Then I talk to my friends who are all in relationships and many of them seem miserable. One of them isn’t allowed to see The Avengers because his partner doesn’t like him seeing movies without her and she hates superhero movies. Another one had to leave our study sessions during exam week to go home and make dinner for her husband because he doesn’t like making it for himself. I would much rather be alone than in a relationship where I gave up so much freedom. The best relationships I’ve ever had are where we both sort of lives our own lives and then spent our free time together because we liked each other. If we both wanted to see a movie then good. If not then it was also fine. I can’t do the attached at the hip thing, and that seems to be what most people want in a relationship. So, until I find a guy who I am attracted to, who is attracted to me, and who is cool with us being our own people (and not that old thing about needing the other person to be complete) then I guess I’m single.
“One of them isn’t allowed to see The Avengers because his partner doesn’t like him seeing movies without her and she hates superhero movies.”
I don’t either but The Avengers was AWE–SOME. That chick be crazay.
@Missy- I understand the whole “attached at the hip” thing- but honestly most of the time, it just involves people suffering for the sake of the other person. Sometimes this can be good, such as if you don’t particularly like theater but your spouse/significant other wants you to come see a performance of his or her new play. But the whole “I wanna go see this movie but you don’t so I guess I won’t” thing is just bullshit. When we were first together, my husband and I were kind of clingy on each other- like spending all day in bed just cuddling and stuff like that- but we are both geeky type people with a LOT of similar interests (he can quote Monty Python and I can pick up the counter-dialogue, lol). So generally most of the time, we enjoy the same things and the same activities. However, there are things that both of us do not share, such as his interest in table-top RPGs or my interest in zombie films. My husband has zombie-phobia, so I tend to go to zombie flicks with friends that like that kind of thing. He has his game night where he hangs out with the guys and pretends to be a dwarf who hacks and slashes bad guys.
Sure, there’s a good amount of compromise and cooperation involved, but I’d like to think that this only makes our relationship stronger. And by the way, I met him totally by accident. He wasn’t even supposed to be in the class that we met in (the other class he wanted to take was full). Of course, the second he saw me, he was entranced, and decided to stick around. Luckily, we both hit it off due to our combined interest in anime, manga and assorted geekery, and although he’s a shy sort of person,we really hit it off.
This is why I’m sort of opposed to internet dating for myself (were I ever to be in a situation wehre such things would be needed). I could care less about hook-ups (my physical anatomy doesn’t like orgasming in the presence of strangers) or casual, stinted dating. And I sure as hell don’t want to have any trolls directing bullshit rage at me, regardless of how much I can block them. I guess I’m just too tired and past all that bullshit to want to dive in again. I have my life- my friends, my family, my offspring, my cat. I have plenty of people who need me around and who enjoy my company. While I do love sex and feel like it would be very sad not to have a partner in life to share all of the milestones with, I do also feel honestly that I could conceivably do exactly as my grandmother did after her husband died and simply be single until the day I die because there are more important things in life than fucking, and there are so many things to do in the life that I have left that would be pushed to the side if I were to seriously start trying to drag through the dregs of society for a decent relationship partner.
Of course, there’s also the fact that I am not only overweight, but I am insanely picky and have a very dominant personality, and I am told that most men don’t like that. *shrug*
My only thought is this, and I’ve said it to a couple people in the month or so since I’ve thought of it: if you’re in the friend zone, it’s for a reason — they just aren’t that into you, but they probably genuinely like you as a person. This could change, but don’t count on it. Be a friend, expect nothing, and move on.