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Friend-zoning Out

One of approximately ten gazillion zillion “friend zone” rage comics.

I’m too lazy to write a real post today, so I thought I’d point you all to a pretty decent analysis of the dreaded “friend zone” by Foz Meadows on goodreads.

Here she is addressing the “Nice Guys” of the world:

[S]omewhere along the line, you’ve got it into your head that if you’re romantically interested in a girl who sees you only as a friend, her failure to reciprocate your feelings is just that: a failing. That because you’re nice and treat her well, she therefore owes you at least one opportunity to present yourself as a viable sexual candidate, even if she’s already made it clear that this isn’t what she wants. That because she legitimately enjoys a friendship that you find painful (and which you’re under no obligation to continue), she is using you. That if a man wants more than friendship with a woman, then the friendship itself doesn’t even attain the status of a consolation prize, but is instead viewed as hell: a punishment to be endured because, so long as he thinks she owes him that golden opportunity, he is bound to persist in an association that hurts him – not because he cares about the friendship, but because he feels he’s invested too much kindness not to stick around for the (surely inevitable, albeit delayed) payoff.

Seriously, Nice Guys, if you think of your friendship with a woman as a means to an end, or some kind of purgatory, then it’s not really a friendship, and you’re doing both yourself and your crush a disservice by persisting in it.  (I learned this lesson myself the hard way, a long time before there were helpful internet posts explaining to me why Nice Guying was a recipe for crappiness all around.)

Speaking of learning: I also learned from Foz Meadows’ post that there is a Wikipedia entry for “friend zone,” complete with advice on how dudes can avoid getting  “friendzoned” in the first place.

Several advisers urged men, during the initial dates, to touch women physically in appropriate places such as elbows or shoulders as a means of increasing the sexual tension. … Adviser Ali Binazir agrees, and suggested for the man to be a “little bit dangerous”, not in a violent sense, but “with a bit of an edge to them”, and be unpredictable and feel “comfortable in their skin as sexual beings.”

Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia … for Your Penis*.

Also: Here is the official Friend Zone anthem, “Consolation Prize” by Orange Juice. Lyrics here.

* Hetero cis penis only.

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LC
LC
8 years ago

@LBT, I probably should have used another form of the phrase, since “necessary” can be interpreted as “necessary to you” rather than to “the condition”.

I like the baked alaska comparison. (Although I personally don’t like baked alaska since I don’t like meringue *grin*. This insight into my dessert tastes is entirely beside the point.)

kilo
kilo
8 years ago

pillowinhell,
“Ah kilo, that kind of understandable is only understandable if you accept the idea that the other person must give you what you want.”

I’m not so sure. I can’t really say much about anger, because I’m very difficult to anger, and the last time I can remember being rage-y even for a minute was in my early teens, and it took someone weeks of hitting me to get me to that point. It’s just not in my nature. So in your example, no it would not make sense to me that you should be angry at the bird. I could understand it if you were angry at the situation. I think you shouldn’t be, because it’s unproductive, but I would not judge you for that, because I do not know what it is like to be quick to anger, and don’t want to needlessly judge people for their nature. Now, if you were angry at the situation and as a result would treat the bird badly, I would understand how you came to be that way, but I would disapprove of it, and find it inexcusable.

@LC, sorry if my wording is confusing, English is not my native language and I like complicated phrasings too much. 🙂

I find it fascinating that you are sexually attracted to almost everyone who is nice to you.

There may well be some selection bias involved. Usually me finding out that someone is nice happens together with finding out that they are amazing in other ways, be it being really interesting, or funny, or easy to talk to or whatever. Also, it’s perhaps better to say “more attracted than before”, usually ending somewhere around “wouldn’t mind, but will neither act toward it in any way nor mind if nothing ever happens”. Also, maybe I’m just kinda desperate.

re: the “it’s a common experience”, it is, but only for some people. there was a discussion about this some time ago on nswatm, and some said that they couldn’t imagine that happening and for others it was common.

LC
LC
8 years ago

@kilo LC, sorry if my wording is confusing, English is not my native language and I like complicated phrasings too much. 🙂

No worries. I’m fond of an overcomplicated sentence or six sometimes. 🙂

Also, it’s perhaps better to say “more attracted than before”, usually ending somewhere around “wouldn’t mind, but will neither act toward it in any way nor mind if nothing ever happens”.

Ahh. That seems entirely unsurprising to me. Since I love to eat, my friends often joke that I am slightly more attracted to anyone who brings me food, and they aren’t really wrong. *grin*

re: the “it’s a common experience”, it is, but only for some people. there was a discussion about this some time ago on nswatm, and some said that they couldn’t imagine that happening and for others it was common.

Finding someone you like to be more attractive once you like them? People were saying they couldn’t imagine that? Fascinating. I don’t think I can name a single one of my friends and acquaintances I’ve ever had a conversation along those lines who wouldn’t agree with that. I thought it was a pretty universal experience. Different intensity levels, sure, but “find them more attractive once you get to know and like them and find out they are awesome” pretty much held as a universal. Not every person and not all the time, but certainly not every person to the point you would actually want to have sex with them, but a general shift to more attractive, absolutely.

kilo
kilo
8 years ago

Finding someone you like to be more attractive once you like them? People were saying they couldn’t imagine that?

Going from “not attracted to “attracted”; sorry, I was to lazy to quote that in context . And yes, people were saying that. It started mostly about here: http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/open-thread-cant-sleep-liberals-will-eat-me-edition/#comment-33733

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

It’s like… I dunno. Baked Alaska. I don’t go around LOOKING for Baked Alaska, and can’t fathom people who bemoan their lack of Baked Alaska.

I think that my lack of having a clue wtf Baked Alaska is only makes me like this analogy more.

@LC — with MRAs at least I wouldn’t be surprised if they really don’t find women more attractive once they get to know them, because nothing any woman does is ever good enough by them. They should perhaps invest in blow up dolls or fleshlights if they want a partner that has no other interests besides sex and making them a sandwich. I almost think AntZ VR woman would be best for everyone, it’s the only way they’ll ever get a woman as one-dimensional as they seem to want.

That is, with non-assholes, I think you’re quite right about “Different intensity levels, sure, but “find them more attractive once you get to know and like them and find out they are awesome” pretty much held as a universal.” — with assholes and MRAs, they never decide their partner is awesome, but rather decide that *gasp* she has interests besides his penis, thus she must be a bitch.

Then again, I can’t wrap my head around how all women are supposed to be available and interested in all men….but virgins….but good in bed…but no experience….clearly the virgin/whore dichotomy is alive and well in them.

LC
LC
8 years ago

Argenti, even the MRA thing is the same concept. As you know someone, their personality becomes part of what you do or don’t find attractive to them. I’m sure someone somewhere never has that be an element, but I’d be surprised if it isn’t incredibly rare. I don’t know anyone who has their attraction to people dictated solely by their physical looks. (For a person, sure. For ALL people? That seems incredibly unlikely to me.)

Anyway, it’s not an important point, it was only that the original wording confused me, and kilo has explained that, so all good. 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

LC — “As you know someone, their personality becomes part of what you do or don’t find attractive to them.” — agreed, I was just musing if MRAs all default to “don’t find attractive” when they realize women have interests in things that aren’t their dicks. At least online they seem to default to “stuck up bitch”.

I am not the MRA scholar some of you are though.

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Argenti: Baked Alaska is a dessert of ice cream placed in meringue, which is then baked until the meringue is browned, but still soft (a la lemon meringue pie), and served while the meringue is still warm.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

A dessert without chocolate? That’d explain why I had no clue what it is! (Thank you for explaining though)

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

Baked Alaska is nice, pavlova is better. Fried icecream is good too.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

I’ve only ever seen fried ice cream at Japanese restaurants, but I’ll give it a go if I remember, it’ll probably be a good while before I can afford sushi though.

And for some on topic things — I appear to be in the friendzone! I was hoping for another FWB as ze was a fun random make out session, but am glad we’re still friends at least. Le John, anyone else going “but isn’t it frustrating?” well yes, but I’d rather be frustrated than resemble zir’s rapey ex. (Ok, I could use that ice cream, but I’ll get over it)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Also, so what if it’s frustrating? We can’t always get what we want, and learning how to deal with that without throwing tantrums and trying to force other people to go along with whatever you want just to shut you up is part of being an adult.

Using Argenti’s example, it frustrates me that I can’t afford to eat sushi every day! But sushi grade tuna is expensive, and such is life.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Good grief, I know your heart is in the right place or at least I assume it is, but you want to be careful with comments like this, Cassandra. I know some people, adults btw, who wouldn’t take your sushi comparisons as easy as I do.

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

You can make a sort of cheating fried ice cream by moulding sliced bread around a ball of icecream (and freezing it really hard) at home.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@Cassandra — I’m going to pick apart your first paragraph, but it’s because I agree not the usual snarking of manboobz, just a heads up before I start (I note this as my thoughts on it are backwards of logical trains of thought…it’ll make sense in a moment)

@Everyone —

Also, so what if it’s frustrating?

Either nothing, boundary violations that will get you “yeah no, I can’t be friends with you” or flat out rape.

We can’t always get what we want, and learning how to deal with that without throwing tantrums and trying to force other people to go along with whatever you want just to shut you up is part of being an adult.

Especially since there’s a world of difference between the child whining that they want ice cream and an adult whining that you owe them sex, the latter is rape — maybe not legally, but certainly under the “was there consent? if not, it’s rape” definition. So just don’t.

Go have your tantrum alone, or to your psych, or go have a beer or some ice cream or tea or whatever it is you do. Just don’t have a temper tantrum at your partner for not providing sexytimes on demand, especially since a grown man having a temper tantrum is goddamned terrifying. Where yep, you probably can get her to verbally say “yes” to sexytimes, because at least then you’ll stop screaming at her and well if I just do it and get it over with….

Do not do this!

@Cassandra — I’m fond of celery and carrot sushi myself, which is fairly cheap to make if you can roll a sushi roll (which I personally don’t find too hard, but ymmv). And sorry for the weird split up comment, I am annoyed, though mostly at zir’s rapey ex (I’m thinking asking why I got friendzoned is probably in bad taste, but I can’t help but think these are related facts)

Hey MRAs? The rapist ex in question is a woman, and I’m a feminist who’s mad at her, care to acknowledge that?

lol, I think I’m going to take my own advice and make myself some tea.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Shit, I didn’t close my bold tag, I keep failing html today despite having learned it back in the damned 90s >.<

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It’s the fish I love (I actually prefer sashimi, but that’s even more expensive, hence settling for sushi), so the veggie sushi wouldn’t really work. Not sure why, but I really prefer fish either raw or as close to raw as possible, with only a few exceptions.

And yeah, I really hate the argument that whining at someone to give you sex isn’t actually rape, so it’s OK. Is it legally rape? No. Is it in any way ethically acceptable? NO. Especially since you’re basically treating a person like the candy bar which you were whining for at the store at age 5, but also as mommy/gatekeeper, which produces a level of mindfuck in the person being whined at and begged that has all sorts of nasty long-term effects.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Is it legally rape? No. Is it in any way ethically acceptable? NO. .

And down the slippery slope we slide…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Re: sushi — oh, I’m not going to try arguing with your taste buds then! You can maybe find somewhere that sells pre-made rolls if you’re in a major city, but ymmv on that.

Also, really, the begging to have access to someone’s body? So much worse than begging for, say, half their sushi. More like begging to whip someone who isn’t remotely into that (or isn’t interested in that with you, or right now). They’re both rather rape like, so just don’t.

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

@CassandraSays 😀

katz
8 years ago

I’m always leery about making my own sushi because I’m not near a fish market or anything and I’m never sure about the freshness of grocery store fish; another advantage of vegetable sushi, I suppose.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Yeah, funny, Cassandra, and I’m sorry that I thought this would be a grown-up discussion. 😉

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

A grown up conversation requires at least 2 grownups, sweetie. Unfortunately that makes it impossible for anyone to have one with you.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ katz

I wouldn’t advise making sushi unless you have access to super-fresh fish. Not only because of the health risks, but because it just won’t taste right. I have access to the right sort of markets, but maguro is still about $25 a pound, hence not something I can eat every day.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Seriously Vindicare? You don’t see how resorting to begging for sex is ethically wrong? And kind of rape like if you manage to coerce consent that way? Coercion is bad, that’s not slippery at all.

@katz — I don’t eat fish, eating things closely related to my pets doesn’t sit well with me, so I wouldn’t have a clue how to safely prepare raw fish. The lack of food poisoning risk really is a big perk in my mind.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

When I was in India for less than a week, I met more people begging for money than in my entire life. I have to admit, after a short time, it became annoying, I even became angry, but you can be assured that I was happy that they just begged and didn’t really coerce me to give them money.

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

Did the beggars beg you to do somthing physical or just give them money? did you have any sort of ongoing relationship with any of the beggars?

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

Could you walk away from any particular beggar, or did they live in your house?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I bet the beggars were physically bigger and stronger than him too, and that they lived in his hotel room.

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

And that’s exactly why I said “down the slippery slope” …

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

Those were differences that struck me between your beggars-for-money and my experience of a lover “begging for sex” til I gave in.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Eh, I’m not in the mood to engage with a “there is no context” troll. Have another music video.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Vindicare, no one, anywhere, ever, is going to give an exact list of what you can’t do — we’re all too familiar with the abusers who will creatively find ways to avoid doing those things while still being vile assholes.

Is it only rape then if ze’s beaten? Said no but gave in so as not to be beaten further? Gave in so as not to be beaten? Said stop but not no? Had previously had sex with the person but said no this time? Previous sex and said stop this time?

No wonder MRAs think so many rape accusations are false….(most of those are legal rape in most states btw, and all are legal rape in at least a couple of states)

Pecunium
8 years ago

Vindicare: And down the slippery slope we slide…

I’ll take the definitions which are about consent to the ones you, and yours, try to use; where the victim has to show that force was used (both to initiate, and to resist) before anyone can entertain the idea of rape.

The fact, well that’s a whole ‘nother issue, and one that MRAs tend to feel is impossible, in the real world, so rape is just one of those things feminists like to pretend is a problem.

Yeah, funny, Cassandra, and I’m sorry that I thought this would be a grown-up discussion

It might be, if you actually said anything: snide one-liners intended as “gotchas” with no real content doesn’t count. You have to have content.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Re sashimi: In the US anything which is listed as, “sushi-grade” has been flash frozen, and so is completely safe for the home cook to use (excepting tuna; which has no pathogens people can get; well, no parasites, salmonella, and other food poisoning is still a risk).

If you are getting truly fresh, that’s a different thing.

Cassandra: TJ’s has sushi grade maguro for about 16 a lb. Not the best blocks for sashimi (the cut is meant for “steaks”), but with a sharp knife, and some appreciation of how it works sashimi can be made. I’ve done it, it’s not that hard (though I do have the “correct” knives, which helps; as does being able to get them at least as sharp as any sushi-ya).

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

music AND kitties
http://procatinator.com/

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I appreciate the tips, but I’m picky. I’d rather have no sashimi at all rather than sashimi that’s just OK.

(This derail is oddly applicable to the main conversation, huh?)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

@Magpie — http://procatinator.com/?cat=20 — haven’t heard that in forever, excellent!

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

Argenti Aertheri, I understand you, if I had the experiences you have, I’ll probably end up there too. But you have to be careful before you decide to declare that “begging for sex is kinda like rape”. That, by any measure, goes to far, if you phrased it like “be careful that your begging…”, ok.

I mean what’s “begging”? Is it already “We didn’t have sex for three month, if nothing changes, I’ll leave you.”?

Vindicare, no one, anywhere, ever, is going to give an exact list of what you can’t do — we’re all too familiar with the abusers who will creatively find ways to avoid doing those things while still being vile assholes.

But shouldn’t those ‘rules’ be adressed to people who have good intentions, anyway?

Vindicare
Vindicare
8 years ago

It might be, if you actually said anything: snide one-liners intended as “gotchas” with no real content doesn’t count. You have to have content.

I wondered when anyone was going to say that. 😉

Pecunium
8 years ago

Vindicare: But shouldn’t those ‘rules’ be adressed to people who have good intentions, anyway?

Nope. Those rules should be addressed to everyone. The people with good intentions won’t have a problem with it, and those with bad intentions won’t be able to game the system.

As to the, “We’ve not had sex in ‘x’ period of time”. Depends on context. If I’m not getting what I need, and am going to leave if my needs can’t be met, then by any reasonable measure I am allowed (even encouraged) to talk about it.

But if it’s not really something I’m going to leave over, then threatening to, or using that as a bargaining chip is morally wrong.

This is a situation where motives matter, and where conflicting needs may dictate a breakup.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: 99 Ranch Markets have decent fish, in tolerably well shaped blocks. I’ve made pretty good sushi from them.

Otherwise, go to Ebisu. 🙂

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Oh, I know where to get the good stuff (not from 99 Ranch), but like I said, it’s expensive! The cheaper stuff just isn’t worth bothering, imo.

Like I said – picky!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Vindicare — “Is it already “We didn’t have sex for three month, if nothing changes, I’ll leave you.”?” — can you really not see the difference between having an adult conversation about how much sex is being had versus “if you don’t have sex with me right now I will leave you”? But really, in the adult world, there comes a point at which you should just walk away.

And my frustration in my long bolded comment, had you properly read it, was my being glad the not-a-FWB is not just walking away, because I do actually want to be friends with zir

Pecunium — he’s looking for exactly wtf he can’t do, and I’ve met that type in real life, if you give a list, he will find a way to violate boundaries without violating the list. The basic principles of respect and consent are better, in my mind at least. (If you’ve ever had someone call you insulting things and then get all “why are you raising your voice, I’m perfectly calm” you’ll know what I mean)

now to figure out where that link of Vindicare’s is…

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Vindicare, were you sockpuppeting for the link I’m looking for? My search button isn’t finding it.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Argenti: Pecunium — he’s looking for exactly wtf he can’t do, and I’ve met that type in real life,

I know. Me too. In lots of contexts. It’s why principles are better than rules for some things.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It’s always fascinating to me that people like this seem to genuinely believe that their motives in asking these particular questions in this particular way are well hidden, when in fact they’re obvious to almost everyone reading.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

(If you’ve ever had someone call you insulting things and then get all “why are you raising your voice, I’m perfectly calm” you’ll know what I mean)

Hell, I was raised by someone like that.

It’s also a pretty common troll tactic around here.