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douchebaggery men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny PUA

PUAs invade OkCupid!

Honestly, this would freak me the fuck out too.

Over on Buzzzfeed, a couple of interesting pieces on the fine art of online pickup artistry.

Kelly Bourdet looks at some of the online PUA gurus and their teachings, noting that

Online pick-up artistry has taken the original aims of IRL pick-up — to develop general tactics and techniques for attracting and bedding women— one step further. One dehumanizing step further. Now, instead of “peacocking” (wearing gaudy outfits to demonstrate Alpha status) in bars and using tired negs, we have them deconstructing every aspect of online persona and communication to create sleek, marketing packages of human beings to sell to one another.

In an even more entertaining companion piece, Ouiser Boudreaux (AKA the Annals of Online Dating gal) reports on some of the actual terrible things these online PUAs write to women in an attempt to “neg” them into their IRL beds.  Like “nice headband, bitch,” or “Lol, you look like a space commando.” Or this little passive-aggressive masterpiece:

You nearly have a perfect lack of grace. What happens when you realize only the also ran hotties slum it in brooklyn? Somebody who says they’re not good at being surface and rattles off a list of authors read mostly in high school english classes is nothing but surface. Your profile is among the most trite and cliche i’ve come across. which is a compliment of sorts, though keep in mind, you’re not in kansas anymore. You know who else won’t deal with a narcissist? just look in the mirror to find the answer: another narcissist.

None of these worked, in case you’re wondering.

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pillowinhell
9 years ago

Oh wow. So he knows your mind based on not reading your profile beyond the picture and the little sexual orientation box. Its not even up for debate that he skimmed your interests, not even to look for a music group or book you like in common. To go on about what he wants to do in bed, that involves very mild kink? To someone who makes NO MENTION of being so much as interested in it? To a straight up asexual is just…is there even a word for that?

And he understands human needs, yep uh huh. Like air or potable water or that he wants sex! I guess being listened to and understood or even recognized as something other than the two dimensional film he’s playing in his head is what? Only a need for more highly evolved beings like Taelons?

And apparently, if being asexual or only wanting new friends is what you’re looking for that just means you’re low maintenance! The holy grail of people who have zero interest in getting to know you at all! Even your name, very likely. And if he’s still on the bisexual thing you’re kinky and obviously spreading yourself around so you won’t miss him!! And avant guard and daring by being who you are!! And he’s really hoping you like bondage!eleventy!! Think of all the things you can do with him in bed!

“And want a piece of you”? Did you mention icing on the cake and now he thinks your a black forest cake confection?

And of course you have so much of his anger. You turned down a really good catch, you cruel heartless woman you. What’s creepy about all of this is that you’re a part of him now…because he wants a piece of you. Which you denied. Which means you must be angry because there is no separation between his desires and emotions because he’s thinking about what he wants to do to (oh the endless possibilities….)you which is the only thing making you remotely real to him. Ick.

Yeah, he’s not so much insulting (and there’s plenty of that) as disturbing.

You know, when I wrote my profile, I was also reading the Heartless Bitches International site. Good for helping with reading between the lines in missives sent by men you don’t want to date. Also good for ensuring there’s enough brimstone in the profile to deter all but the most determined sleezebags.

And somehow, despite saying things that would make me look like a demanding and heartless taskmistress, I never had even one guy upfront proposition me about bondage or domination. You must be really lucky!! How do you do it?

Amog
Amog
9 years ago

“In response to your comments, yeah, that’s adorable. You insinuate that I’m not “a nice person” and sarcastically call me “such a charmer” because I didn’t nod and smile and be kind to someone who engaged me in an abusive, disgusting manner. I understand that some people think my job is to be submissive and never make men feel bad about their approach (no matter how egregious it is)–because really, if they abuse me and attack me as an opener, I should really be the bigger person and let them down gently. We should be well-behaved when attacked, or else it’s really our fault that it happened!”

Of course, of course. And if somebody tries to pick your pocket on the street, you should immediately and gleefully shoot him in the head! I mean, how can anyone hold that against you? What were you supposed to do, just stand there and let them get away? All you did was legitimately protect yourself from a criminal!

Laughable strawmanning aside, I’m not even sure why you’d reject that guy. You sound like a good match for each other, what with both of you being wordy pretentious narcissists. No, that’s not a neg either.

See, normal people would just laugh these weirdos off, but you and a few other commenters here sound like you have some genuine anger and issues of your own. You probably look forward to receiving these socially inept messages so you can tear into them and feel better about yourselves.

Upon further reading, I see that you’re “asexual” and pillowinhell is into BDSM. Why am I not surprised.

Don’t bother replying (or circlejerk amongst yourselves if you must), I won’t be coming back here.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

Don’t bother replying (or circlejerk amongst yourselves if you must), I won’t be coming back here.

Please stick that flounce, you’re boring as shit.

swankivy
9 years ago

Amon,

“And if somebody tries to pick your pocket on the street, you should immediately and gleefully shoot him in the head!”

Yep! ‘Cause mocking a guy who thought it was a good idea to open with these kinds of attacks is just like murdering someone. This is really about my anger. If someone approaches me civilly and talks to me like a person, they don’t get mocked. They get treated like civil people treat each other.

“I’m not even sure why you’d reject that guy. You sound like a good match for each other, what with both of you being wordy pretentious narcissists.”

And you’re a great judge of character! I always love it when people who are threatened by “words” try to make other people feel ashamed of it. You do realize this is the equivalent of mocking someone for being a nerd in high school, right?

“See, normal people would just laugh these weirdos off, but you and a few other commenters here sound like you have some genuine anger and issues of your own.”

LOL “normal people.” Happy to hear you get to define what the proper response is. Oh no, now I have to desperately clamor to make assholes on the Internet think I’m NORMAL! Or you could just get over the fact that no one needs your approval.

“Upon further reading, I see that you’re ‘asexual’ and pillowinhell is into BDSM.”

More LOL. Invoking my orientation and putting scare quotes around it? I’m gonna assume you don’t know what asexuality is, considering you’re trying to use it as (again) something I’m supposed to be ashamed of or something that marks me as flawed . . . maybe you think it reveals something sick about me. Well, maybe one day you’ll educate yourself. Considering the way you talk here, though, that’s not likely.

“I won’t be coming back here.”

You’ll be missed!

swankivy
9 years ago

Oops, I typoed “Amog” as “Amon.” Which he’ll surely never see since he’s NOT COMING BACK EVER OMG.

@pillowhell – Yeah, you’ve got the guy down. I actually think I hate the pseudo-intellectual dickweeds more than the outright trolls and neg nerds. Oh, they try so hard to make themselves look so in touch, so in control, so *appealing*. Personally, I thought the most disturbing part of it was how he kept telling me what I’m attracted to – what I surely have been though “as a woman” and how he is going to meet my needs. All these assumptions about how I’m a “free-spirited woman” and how he’s pretending (soooo hard) to understand what I’m all about, being so independent and all.

I get a lot of form letters. They’re really insulting. These dudes honestly think we can’t tell this message is generic.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Oh yes Amog, knowing about BDSM totally makes me into it! I also know about NASA so clearly I’m an astronaut too!

So we’ve found the formula to get at least one reading comprehension fail to understand you’re asexual swankivy. You just need to mention it a dozen more times.

Aw shucks, and he was such a pleasant asshole too.

jumbofish
9 years ago

Don’t bother replying (or circlejerk amongst yourselves if you must), I won’t be coming back here.

stick to the flounce douchebag

Pecunium
9 years ago

Amog: Don’t bother replying (or circlejerk amongst yourselves if you must), I won’t be coming back here.

Of course you won’t dearie, nor will you stop in to take a look.

Laughable strawmanning aside,

Well, no, it was the pretty much all of your post, you didn’t make it an aside at all. Someone who is intentionally rude, or who chooses to intentionally disregard someone’s written description of what they are looking for; and is dealt with assertively, even rudely, is far from someone shooting another in the head for petty theft.

The one is a commensurate response. That it might mean you can’t do such a thing without risk to your feelings, bothers me not a whit.

See, normal people would just laugh these weirdos off

And decent people wouldn’t try to imply that being offended by entitled jerks, and refusing to let them continue in their obnoxious ways; withough check or hindrance, was abnormal.

Reasonable people wouldn’t pretend they could give a psychological diagnosis over the internet, much less accuse those who disagree with them of being pathetic losers who get of on abuse so they can feel superior.

Intelligent one’s wouldn’t follow that with a flounce proclaiming how superior they were in the act of “tearing into people.” But if it makes you feel better to not have to read the responses, that’s your perogative.

ostara321
ostara321
9 years ago

I’ve been lucky enough that most of my OKC interactions have been more on the boring to pleasant end of things, rather than unpleasant to downright scary, though the few that have been reminiscent of PUAs or MRAs in training have mostly just been hilarious. Like the dude who was fun at first, I chatted with a few times and we decided to meet for coffee, but I told him I’d have to get back to him on the date. Two days later he freaked out on me saying if I wasn’t interested I should just tell him and he didn’t want to date someone so flighty anyway. My response was “wow, we were dating? Why wasn’t I informed? Well, at least now I know we’re broken up, because yeah, this is not happening. Pro tip: if you think someone isn’t into you, timing their responses and then freaking out on them when they aren’t responding fast enough to stroke your ego is a surefire way to really make them not into you.” I’m not someone who automatically counts someone with a lower self esteem out because I’m not always totally cool with myself either, but yelling at me when we haven’t even met IRL yet sets off MAJOR alarm bells.

The dude who basically told me my interest in social justice issues was garbage because most people in the world were too stupid therefore nothing could ever be equal because, stupid people, was promptly ignored. I’m not sure if he thought he could impress me with his brilliant logic (I’m assuming at least that he didn’t consider himself one of the stupid) or if he thought that passive aggressively insulting me by saying the things I care about are stupid would make me want to fuck him but I didn’t really feel like finding out.

I have yet to figure out what to do with the guys who ask me “what do you go for in guys?” Usually, that’s in a message full of a bunch of other questions, so I’ve done well with ignoring that question and focusing on the other ones. But it’s something that unnerves me. I mean, why ask that? If you ask me that and I tell you, don’t you sorta think the cat’s outta the bag that you’re just trying to conform to what you think I want to get me into bed, rather than, I dunno, just being yourself and seeing if we hit it off?

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

My experience with OKC is that I get contacts from cis women and trans men when they have in the 80s-90s% match (sometimes high 70s%) with very low enemy score, while cis guys who try to contact me are okay with 30-60% match and 20+% enemy (no samples for trans women yet). And they often obviously haven’t read my profile at all.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

I mean, I can understand the male entitlement dynamic when it comes to hetero cis men attempting to get with hetero cis women, but how do they think being an entitled tool who think only of their own self-gratification will work when they’re trying to get with another bi man?

Hey buddy, I’m as privileged as you are. So, hmm, NO! How bout YOU suck me off? 😛

(Okay so yeah, I try to not actually play the privilege card IRL as I’m working on my social justice stuff, but I find their approach hilarious.)

pillowinhell
9 years ago

BlacBloc, wow I guess they figure that a thirty percent compatibility should buy them just enough time to get off after a half hour date?

To be fair, I’ve heard some real doozies from Beloved who also used internet dating sites. I asked him if women are just as messed up. Seems we are.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

Maybe the fact my profile is filled up with references to me being bi, a geek, poly, interested in neither a LTR nor one-night deal, is filtering out the sort of messed up women that might otherwise contact me? Either because they’re biphobic, not into geeks, not into larger gentlemen, or are either in it for life or only interested in a fling without the hassle of FWB? I don’t know, I’m mercifully devoid of the woman types of awful in my inbox.

M Dubz
M Dubz
9 years ago

@pillowinhell- Yeah, part of me thinks that it’s another whole symptom of the “women aren’t really human/ all women behave THUSLY” syndrome. That is, if men see all women as behaving the same, then compatibility doesn’t really matter, because we’re all the same anyway, and you should just pick the prettiest one. *sighs*

Also? Chubby-chasers on the internet are a whole additional level of awesome (awful). Because they think they’re doing you a FAVOR by objectifying you and treating you like a hunk of meat. Because clearly fat ladies have no standards/ are just desperate for a scrap of attention amirite?

Polliwog
Polliwog
9 years ago

I think my all-time favorite “why should I read the profile, all that matters is your picture” exchange on a dating website was shared with me by a friend. (It is probably relevant to the story to mention that my friend is Chinese-American.)

Guy: Why, hello, gorgeous. I can tell we will be incredibly compatible! You are obviously sweet and deeply submissive, and will love yielding to my assertive and manly desires!

My friend: Dude, the FIRST SENTENCE of my profile is “I’m a domme.” You fail forever.

Guy: You shouldn’t present yourself as submissive if that’s not what you want!

My friend: ….again. First. Freaking. Sentence.

Guy: FUCK YOU, YOU FAT BITCH. YOU USED A SUBMISSIVE PICTURE!

(That is an actual direct quote. “You used a submissive picture!” has been a running joke among my friends ever since.)

M Dubz
M Dubz
9 years ago

I also love how the insult they always go to is “fat bitch.” As a representative of fat bitches everywhere, I take umbrage with you saying that like it’s a BAD thing.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Well geez, what was your friend thinking, putting up a picture that shows a Chinese person? We all know what Asian temperments are like right? / end snark and carefully washes hands after typing that.

Jesus, the things people come out with.

BlacBloc, yeah your preferences might be weeding out the jackass women. Beloved told me about several women who insisted on dating him, even after it was quickly established that he does not want more children. He’s very upfront about it. He ended up dating a woman for a couple months who thought he would change his mind. And some were just right out there. One thing I have heard from men is about the lack of response they get on dating sites.

Polliwog
Polliwog
9 years ago

I also love how the insult they always go to is “fat bitch.” As a representative of fat bitches everywhere, I take umbrage with you saying that like it’s a BAD thing.

Heh, yup. It’s extra funny given that the only thing this guy apparently bothered to look at was her picture, and the friend in question isn’t, in point of fact, fat, at least not by any remotely sane definition of “fat.” It’s weird enough when the idiots run around informing fat people that they’re fat like this will be a shocking revelation to them, but it’s pretty bizarre when they cannot think of any other attack to use on a woman who wears something in the range of a size 4.

M Dubz
M Dubz
9 years ago

@ Polliwog- Yeah, fat has basically become a synonym for “OMFGYOUAREAHORRIBLEUGLYUNDESIRABLEPERSON.” This is frustrating because:
1) When men call women fat, they are supposed to burst into tears, like the worst thing ever is not being attractive within VERY narrow parameters.
2) When my friends freak out when I describe myself as fat around them. It’s like “No, I didn’t say I was ugly or undesirable or not-awesome. I am attractive and desirable and awesome. Also fat.”
We should be able to talk about our bodies in ways that are honest and also nonjudgmental.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

LOL! Yeah look! Our post got noticed and some woman noticed enough to call the professor a jackass!!

Well, at least now I know what rock Dalrock is hiding under.

Okay Jackasses, we noticed your blog. But quite frankly, we’ve heard your brand of drivel eleventy million times. Come up with something you haven’t riffed off two hundred other blogs.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Ha ha ha — my work here is done. Professor Jackass noticed I posted his link. My favorite comment:

Kind of like how cloudiah ripped you a new one by quoting what you said, and then not disproving you, or explaining why your views were “wrong”, or trying to argue against you in any way.

Like anything he said is even worthy of debunking. It is BARELY worthy of mockery, and only on a slow news day. 🙂

Pecunium
9 years ago

cloudiah: I’m amused at the, preemptive, declaration of victory. That comment goes on I wouldnt have even worked out that she disagreed with you. But it seems that she does disagree, it just that she doesn’t know why, or else can’t explain it satisfactorily to her fellow boobs. Yes, with wits like that being present I’m sure that you would be in for a rough time indeed if you were to head on over…

So… we know he disagrees, but not why. On the other hand we can be certain that, were they do deign to grace us with their presence, we would be “devastated” by their logic.

So bravely they decide they will spare us the lash of reason.

mythago
9 years ago

Sounds like Professor Jackass is developing a bad case of “professor’s disease” – where he spends so much time lecturing to people whose grades he controls that he has no idea how to respond to people who don’t have to stay in his good graces.

@pillowinhell, a friend of mine (who is a decent guy, not a Nice Guy) was griping about lack of responses on OKC – “why can’t they just say no thanks? I would be fine with that.” We had to explain to him that those women he is messaging probably get a crapton of emails, and have found that if they reply with anything at all, even “no thanks”, they will immediately get back a FURTHER reply (from a guy they’ve clearly told they aren’t interested in), which means they have to a) continue the conversation (again – one they didn’t want) and/or b) will get harassed and yelled at for “leading him on” by, you know, continuing the conversation.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Well, Mythago I get the part you’ve explained. Generally, I just got a thank you for letting me know. But continued online harassment is a risk. Thankfully PoF has a block button. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Men put profiles up, and rarely get women who read them and contact the guy. So men are still stuck having to make the first approach. Why are women still so resistant to making the first approach? Volume of responses received? Fear of slut shaming? Rejection? Tradition? I mean, why wouldn’t a woman respond to an interesting profile. I’m sure most of us spend time looking through them.

Okay, rejection on an online site is something I have a hard time crediting. Perhaps because its a keyboard interaction and not face to face and in public.

Jessay (@jessay)
9 years ago

@swankivy I just watched a couple of your videos and subscribed. I watched the first letter you got and, oh my, what a jerk! I can’t believe people are so angry about something that really doesn’t matter in their lives overall. So what if one woman who you haven’t even met is not sexually attracted to you (or anyone else but you know the guy is angry because he’s taking it personally), is that the end of the world? I get how hard it is to be attracted to someone you can’t be with who is a regular part of your life, I have a friend like that now. But, come on, someone you don’t even know? And it’s also no reason to be shitty to the person even if you do know them. If you can’t accept someone’s disinterest in you sexually you should move on. If I didn’t value the guy in my life’s friendship and have fun with him when we’re just hanging out I wouldn’t stick around and just torture myself.

While I’m not asexual, I’m definitely child free. I have never wanted to have children, and, if anything, if I change my mind and want to nurture a child or two in the very distant future I have always been set on adoption. I hear a lot of those things you mentioned. People act as though my not wanting children is wrong, and they see it as the ultimate goal in life. My goals are also related to what I can create with my mind and not with my uterus. It’s just so obnoxious when people treat you as if their goals should be yours. I don’t see the point in having kids in this society, but I’m not about to tell someone whose ultimate goal is to become a stay at home parent that they’re going to regret not having a career. Why should I be assigned a lifestyle that makes me cringe?

Oh, and for being called fat as an insult, I got that a few times on my youtube videos from angry MRAs. I was called fat and ugly a bunch of times. Then another MRA was like, “Just for the record, I think he crossed the line, I don’t think you’re fat and ugly.”

Gee, thanks. Because I made a video laughing about MRAs to gain their superficial approval and be told I was pretty.

lauralot89
9 years ago

I have nothing to add to the conversation, but I just want to say: swankivy, I’m so excited to see you here. Your site was one of the first that I found after realizing I was asexual, and it’s always been hugely helpful and entertaining to me. You are awesome.

Jessay (@jessay)
9 years ago

Oh, cloudiah, that quote you pulled btw. I just want to note, “Sometimes I wonder if they forget that they are there to attract a man, and that men will actually be reading the stunningly stupid things they write on their profiles.” They treat it like you’re there to attract any man. Like, I dunno, maybe they assume that because you’re using an online dating website that you must be so desperate that you should just take the first dude who messages you. We talk about it a lot, but I mean, they don’t seem to get that women have preferences. We aren’t just going to settle for any old guy just to have someone.

I don’t want a guy who is going to treat me like his property. I don’t want a guy who is going to disrespect me. I don’t want to waste my precious time dating a guy who doesn’t understand up front that those are things I will not tolerate. So if my assertiveness over what is and is not an acceptable way to treat me in my profile is “scaring men off,” those are not the types of men I want to attract in the first place. No loss here. I much prefer being alone than being with someone who hurts me or I’m incompatible with.

But again, these are men who want their women to be docile, obedient, and agreeable at all times. So of course they don’t get that women have needs too.

Jessay (@jessay)
9 years ago

Ahh, one last thing, sorry.

As for why women don’t message men. Well, I can tell you my reasoning: I find flirting via the internet to be way more scary than flirting in person. Maybe it’s due to the permanence of the internet. You know, whatever I say might get screencapped or forwarded if it’s really stupid. Also, the fear of the non-response. Personally, I don’t respond to people I’m not interested in because, like some of you said, it just drags the interaction on further, and a lot of them just feel like form letters anyways or will be straight up cruel to prove “they weren’t interested anyway.” I fear that non-response the most because there is no sense of closure. I’m the type who needs closure (it’s part of my OCD). If I get up the courage, and it takes a lot of courage for me, to write something sincere to someone, and then I get nothing in return… well, that’s hard for me to take. It’s not worth agonizing over so i rarely bother in the first place.

Meanwhile, when I speak to someone in person, which I’m much more likely to do, I can get an immediate response. I can read their body language, feel the warmth (or lack thereof) of their energy, and get a real idea of whether or not they are actually interested. There are no non-responses involved. I can then move on with my life.

I really don’t like online dating which is why I don’t actively use my profile. The only reason I semi-used it for a few months was because my social outlets just are not bringing in single men who I’m interested in (I get single men who I’m not, and taken men who I am), so I thought maybe I’d have more luck on a site where everyone is single. Unfortunately, getting over that hurdle of messaging a guy first was too difficult for me, and the only messages I was getting were from men who I was completely not attracted to, so it was a bust. Now, if these men were appearing in my every day life, I’d approach them with much less problem. I don’t know where they’re hiding.

mythago
9 years ago

@pillowinhell: a guy friend of mine who has a really great profile (and is also just as cool IRL!) is annoyed because he gets a lot of women sending him messages that say “I’m not actually interested in dating you, but I wanted to say I love your profile!” Uh….okay.

I suspect the lack of initiative by women is a combination of women being subject to the same “she doesn’t make the first move unless she’s desperate” conditioning lots of us get, plus fear of online harassment. After all, if you approach a guy and then he turns out not to be so great after all, it’s just that much more likely that you’re going to get a shitstorm if you say “Sorry, this isn’t going to happen.”

pillowinhell
9 years ago

I suppose the answer is likely to be different for everyone. I guess I’m pretty cavalier when it comes to dating, for some reason its never really bothered me, the rejection. Sometimes it stings a bit.

Jessay (@jessay)
9 years ago

Rejection isn’t what bothers me, it’s when things go unresolved. Like, when you go on a date and never hear from the person again. I would much rather be told, “I’m not interested after all,” than be left to wonder wtf happened. So yeah, as I said before, the fact non-response is the reason I avoid messaging people personally.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Sometimes I wonder if they forget that they are there to attract a man, and that men will actually be reading the stunningly stupid things they write on their profiles. Looking through Match, I see a lot of grrrl-pwr buzzwords, feminist posturing, and what I can only describe as pre-emptive shit-testing….

1. Do your market research. Determine what the men you find attractive want in a wife, then give it to them. If you’re not willing to do this, then on behalf of men everywhere, I invite you to shut up and stop bitching about not being married. Shaming your customers into buying your product only works on women and beta males (women). And no, banging a different man every three months on your way to the serial monogamy hall of fame is not market research.

Is such a hot mess of logical failure.

1: I don’t think they forget it at all. I think they are doing just that. They’ve figured out what they want, and they are looking for it. These guys aren’t it. Sucks to be them.

Newsflash, “pre-emptive shit testing” of this sort is a good thing. It weeds out the idiots who won’t read, the clueless who don’t read and the assholes who think they have a right to “bang a different [woman] every [x chunk of time]” because they like it, and women don’t.

That’s called creating a campaign to target one’s market. It’s what smart people do. Fools just throw ideas at the wall and hope some will stick. These guys seem to resent being asked to live up to standards.

Sucks to be them.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Ugh, I checked out that Professor website. Just what Austin needs, more privileged manchild jagoffs running at the mouth. They claim fat women are a violation of their civil rights, clearly they’ve never had a civil right violated in their candyass lives.

MollyRen (@MollyRen)
9 years ago

I’d say the “women don’t approach” conditioning is a huge reason why women don’t write to guys on websites. I’ve hardly ever gotten approached by anyone, either IRL or online, so I realized early on that if I didn’t do it, no one would. But it’s still occassionally nerve-wracking!

princessbonbon
9 years ago

Apollo on the blog says:

This also amuses me for other reasons though. There seems to be a general failure of these girls to understand that they don’t get to decide what men find attractive. Men decide. And on this issue, the men have spoken. Fat girls are not attractive. Unfortunately for her, those “narrow parameters” don’t get any wider.

So if a man has the right to decide what he finds attractive, does this mean women do? The obvious answer is of course they do, if you are a rational person and most of these types are not. So the answer they give is no way!

THEN on top of that, they get all butt hurt when the woman has the nerve, the NERVE to not be whatever arbitrary weight that they think is acceptable. Why are you angry that a woman that you have no interest in dating and is not pestering you for a date is saying that she is fat? Why does it make you cry inside that she is not miserable?

And I see the Professor also assumes that fat=unhealthy. *sigh*

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Well, the other part is that you have more competition for the same number of jobs. Employers can therefore offer less pay because people should be grateful they even have a job. I think the everyday working guys fear having that much more competition and rightfully so. Depending on your skillset and education, finding decent paying work can be like winning a small lottery.

Women contaminating the workforce may drop the status of the field. But the pay drops due to a glut of prospective employees.

swankivy
9 years ago

@Pecunium: “Someone who is intentionally rude, or who chooses to intentionally disregard someone’s written description of what they are looking for; and is dealt with assertively, even rudely, is far from someone shooting another in the head for petty theft.”

That’s really well said. People who say this crap are acting like they DESERVED civil treatment when they opened with blatant disrespect. Why should I treat them the way I treat respectful people?

“And decent people wouldn’t try to imply that being offended by entitled jerks, and refusing to let them continue in their obnoxious ways; withough check or hindrance, was abnormal.”

Exactly. People try to do this when they want us to seem unreasonable. I get a lot of “oh my GOD, calm DOWN” when I react with outrage to things that are outrageous. Any response is usually labeled hysterical just because it is a response. If they can make it seem like my response is an overreaction that reveals something bad about me–and then they jump into criticizing that–then they neatly avoid having to address my argument.

@ostara321: “Pro tip: if you think someone isn’t into you, timing their responses and then freaking out on them when they aren’t responding fast enough to stroke your ego is a surefire way to really make them not into you.”

Very nice. That’s happened to me too–the whole “don’t bother replying, obviously you’re not interested” thing. Which I guess means that if I have a life, it’s offensive. A great article by the title “Schrödinger’s Rapist” explains this phenomenon in much better first-person commentary than I could.

@M Dubz: “part of me thinks that it’s another whole symptom of the ‘women aren’t really human/ all women behave THUSLY’ syndrome. That is, if men see all women as behaving the same, then compatibility doesn’t really matter, because we’re all the same anyway, and you should just pick the prettiest one.”

YES. Ever gotten that lovely comment: “Look, we might as well be HONEST–I have to know if I’m attracted to you before I’d consider a relationship, so I look at that first! What’s wrong with that? *Natural human urges, sex shaming, I’m a GUY okay, why do you hate men*, etc.” Thinking that actually all men are like this, and all women are like this but they pretend to not be . . . they believe they will get points by suggesting that this is “honesty” rather than, you know, being shallow, and that I should respect it because I’m being chosen as a pretty one anyway and should feel oh so coveted.

“Also? Chubby-chasers on the internet are a whole additional level of awesome (awful). Because they think they’re doing you a FAVOR by objectifying you and treating you like a hunk of meat. Because clearly fat ladies have no standards/ are just desperate for a scrap of attention amirite?”

Dear god yes. I’m not fat but several of my best friends are. (Oh shit, should I make up a black friend too in case we discuss racism? No, seriously.) My website was once trolled by Reddit, and someone said something similar to me, though–not about me being fat since I wasn’t, but about me being “not conventionally attractive” and therefore I probably hate men so much because it’s only ugly ones or rude ones who talk to me. If only, they said, a really hot guy would do me a favor and talk to me in a club, I’d stop being such a bitch. Don’t hurt yourselves there fellas!

“I also love how the insult they always go to is “fat bitch.” As a representative of fat bitches everywhere, I take umbrage with you saying that like it’s a BAD thing.”

I get called “fat bitch” when they can’t see me. Because they assume I’m probably fat and therefore worthless. If you’re somewhere in the middle, people will still call you “fat bitch” if they can see you, and harass you about it. If, like me, you’re on the skinny end of the spectrum and they can’t possibly call you fat, they will call you anorexic or a druggie, which is what I usually get. As long as they can try to say something to attack what women surely must be most obsessed with–their appearances. Way to try to undermine my self-confidence by exploiting what you THINK are my weaknesses, jackass!

@Polliwog: I love the “you used a submissive picture!” story. Classic. People do that to me too–tell me my picture or even my mere presence on OKC is leading them on and is “not fair” because, you know, waah, they want me, waah, I’m hurting them by not being available. But I guess we shouldn’t be surprised. Eve has been blamed for “tempting Adam” as if he has no agency since the Garden of Eden.

@Everyone talking about guys who get pissed that girls don’t write back on OKC: It’s a valid complaint, and I really wish people in general would respond to their mail even if they’re not interested, but YES, every “I’m not interested, thanks” mail is an invitation for abuse, and in my case it comes about fifty percent of the time. I have a thick skin. Not everyone does. If I make it clear that I’m not interested–and that’s always, because I just point them to my profile and draw their attention to the part that says I AM NOT HERE FOR DATING OR MATING–I’ll either get a lecture, or an explosion, or a “bitch u ugly anyway,” or a condescending diatribe on how I should stop getting off on rejecting men for my own sick pleasure. Whatever. I could NOT have been more clear about what I’m looking for. Kicking your feet and screaming about not being recognized as an exception is pretty much just a total exercise in embarrassing privilege display.

swankivy
9 years ago

@Jessay–Thanks for watching my videos. Your comments are right on–indeed, these people feel like they need to condescendingly lecture me on my obligation to entertain their desires, and how I’m just going to be so SAD if I’m left alone to, you know, live as if I’m the authority on my own desires.

My looks have been insulted in my videos a few times . . . usually people acknowledge that I’m within the range of normatively attractive and start saying crap about how it’s a waste for me to be asexual (or, if they wish they could abuse me for being fat but they can’t because they’ve seen me, they’ll tell me I have “skinny drug addict arms” or something), but I’ve also had people insult my hair for being ratty and tell me I have a Jew nose or an annoying voice. You know, I actually prefer this kind of “rebuttal.” Because telling someone they’re ugly instead of arguing with their argument is pretty easy to laugh off.

@lauralot89–I really appreciate your comment and I’m excited that you’re excited to see me. Haha. I get a lot of bullshit from people about how “WTF is this awareness stuff important? STFU already, no one cares if you don’t have sex” or “aren’t there BIGGER PROBLEMS you should be worrying about??” So it’s always nice when someone decides to tell me I made a difference.

swankivy
9 years ago

Oh god this is so effed up.

@Pecunium , on how those guys say “the women are forgetting that they’re THERE to attract a man”: “I don’t think they forget it at all. I think they are doing just that. They’ve figured out what they want, and they are looking for it. These guys aren’t it. Sucks to be them.”

Exactly. It’s like they haven’t figured out yet that we actually want to be offensive, or at least off-putting, to men who would talk to us this way, expect us to be this way, or think about us as though we are obligated to entertain their requests. I’ve had more than one man on OKC tell me that my profile is going to chase people off, or that my “attitude” is too brusque, etc. Did they ever think that ALL of the men who have ever talked to me through that site whose company I actually WANTED to keep were amused by my comments? And they’re not just “manginas” or men who are making fun of their competition in order to get laid. That’s just what they like to say to each other. “Everyone thinks like us. The guys who say what girls actually want to hear are doing it just to get in their panties.” Er, except no.

“These guys seem to resent being asked to live up to standards.”

And that is exactly it. “But what do you expect me to DO?” and “god damn you expect me to pass a test or something!” Honey, the only reason this is frustrating to you is that you are STILL trying to Christmas-tree the scan-tron and expecting an A. These are not impossible standards. They are not arbitrary or shallow or based on attributes that are out of your control. We simply ask for respect and some semblance of understanding compatibility factors.

@princessbonbon: You’re also spot-on when you talk about women’s right to be whatever weight they want to be. This idiot thinks he can declare “excuse me, but fat girls are not attractive, I have spoken, and I have lots of head-nodding; therefore women need to whip themselves into shape in the form of a size 8 or smaller, or else we will not deign to sleep with them.”

Have fun, guys. Enjoy your “standards.” Enjoy your “right” to tell women what they can look like before you’ll screw them. And then keep waving your fists around screaming about how women aren’t attracted to you or how it’s THEIR unreasonable standards that are to blame for your romantic failures. Anyone can have unreasonable standards and be therefore hard to please, but meanwhile, all the fat chicks I am super close with are married or in relationships. Because . . . news flash . . . not even close to all guys have those standards. THEY’RE NOT STANDARD.

“Why are you angry that a woman that you have no interest in dating and is not pestering you for a date is saying that she is fat? Why does it make you cry inside that she is not miserable?”

::applause:: Yes, they really want to punish us for not being what they want to have sex with. As an asexual who does a lot of awareness efforts, I get rape threats pretty regularly. I’ve determined that this is a two-pronged attack. One: if a guy were to rape me in a “corrective” sense, he hopes that I would suddenly worship his penis after realizing how full and complete and whole sex had made me feel. He has conquered me and shut up another silly asexual bitch who thinks the world does NOT revolve around penis. And two: Were I to not be converted into a nymphomanic through the magic of his amazing cock, you see, *I got what I deserved*. I got PUNISHED. And that second attitude is the same way these particular guys view women who are in any way not physically attractive or available to them: they need to be HURT and put down and attacked for daring to feel good about themselves. How dare they feel sexy, or attractive, or of value as a human being, if they are not doing anything to deserve his attention? Oh no, lady. There need to be CONSEQUENCES for that.

Happily, those “consequences” involve calling you ugly on the Internet. BOO-HOO!

Jessay (@jessay)
9 years ago

Newsflash, “pre-emptive shit testing” of this sort is a good thing. It weeds out the idiots who won’t read, the clueless who don’t read and the assholes who think they have a right to “bang a different [woman] every [x chunk of time]” because they like it, and women don’t.

Totally. I’m a fairly busy woman with a limited amount of free time (when I’m online it’s often as a breather in between working on projects and whatnot, not the type of time I could commit to meeting a man), so I don’t want to waste that time by just dating any old dude who happens to see my profile. I want to make the time and money I spend going out count. I’m better off hanging with my friends, watching a tv show, or checking the internet than spending $40 on a meal with a complete douche.

So if a man has the right to decide what he finds attractive, does this mean women do? The obvious answer is of course they do, if you are a rational person and most of these types are not. So the answer they give is no way!

Yeah, when they go on a rampage about women being fat as if it’s some sort of great injustice against the men, they’re just deciding what they find attractive. When women have any sort of standards at all, or don’t want to sleep with that dude who is in the “friend zone” because they aren’t attracted to them, they are superficial bitches. How DARE we not hand over our vaginas to any “nice” guy who wants a piece (while simultaneously having to be pure and virginal), but they can have their pick of the litter. Fat? You should be ashamed of yourself!

The double goddamn standards, my god!

Well, the other part is that you have more competition for the same number of jobs. Employers can therefore offer less pay because people should be grateful they even have a job. I think the everyday working guys fear having that much more competition and rightfully so. Depending on your skillset and education, finding decent paying work can be like winning a small lottery.

They should be WAY more concerned about outsourcing than they are about women working in the field. Women still at least have to make minimum wage whereas people in other countries can go home with a dollar a day. That’s what’s driving down our pay rates.

And Ohhhh my god. The threats of corrective sex that I see enough to be concerned about. Somehow we do not live in a rape culture, yet lesbians and asexuals get threatened with rape as a way to “fix” their orientations way more often than they should (which should be zero, but the number of times it happens to most individuals is well above this). Same goes for “bitchy” women who “just need a good fuck.” How do people say these things and then sleep soundly at night?

Pecunium
9 years ago

Jessay: How do people say these things and then sleep soundly at night?

Because they don’t see women as people, not really. To make a, not as strained as I would like, comparison, they do the same sort of compartmentalising chattel slave-owners do.

Women aren’t completely human, so it’s ok to abuse them.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: swankivy

Demi gay guy here! Wow, I had no idea there were so many ace and gray-a folks on here! Brings a tear to my heart, it does.

RE: Jessay

My sexual abuse was corrective in nature. I STILL remember the classic line the first time my rapist succeeded. He buttoned up his pants, saw me curled up crying and said, “I knew it would be hard the first time. But don’t worry. Next time we can work on teaching you to like it.”

This is why I want to shake people who insist asexual folk don’t encounter any sort of discrimination and bull.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

I think I just got negged on XBox Live!! o.O Some completely random soul sent me a friend request, and then like 10 hours later sent me a message saying “you should add me, you only have three friends”. Hilarious, but creepy!

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: Shadow

Apropos of nothing, but been meaning to tell you since I first saw your icon: WOO NIGHTCRAWLER YEEEEAH

swankivy
9 years ago
Reply to  LBT

@LBT: Yes, it’s annoying when people think asexual folks don’t get attacked. I’m fortunate in that I’ve never actually been sexually assaulted, though I’ve had people threaten it multiple times because they thought I deserved to get forced into experiencing sex (you know, because then surely I’d see how irresistible it is and how much of a fool I’ve been to forgo it). Nice to see you here too.

I’ve seen other people embed YouTube videos in comments, and I don’t know if I’m able to do that (I’m new in commenting here), but I’ll try to embed my self-made “Asexual Bingo” video below to show the anti-asexual (and frequently misogynistic) comments I often get. Nobody harasses us? Yeah right.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Rogan

Wha-what!!! High fifteen!!! *falls on arse*

@swankivy
just copy the url from the address bar and paste it

swankivy
9 years ago
Reply to  Shadow

I figured that would only show the link. I was trying to embed. But it looks like the link shows up anyway. I dunno which codes are “allowed,” and it tends to vary. Anyway it’s a pretty cool video. 😉 Except I’m biased, since I made it.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: Swankivy

Aw, unfortunately, due to various computery issues, video is damn near impossible for me to access at this time. 🙁 Sorry. Do you happen to have a transcription around somewhere?