Oh, the Men’s Rights subreddit is on a roll! Earlier in the week, as regular readers will already be well aware, a sizeable number of the regulars there were waxing indignant about a spermburgling girlfriend who turned out to be imaginary, and expressing sympathy for the imaginary girlfriend’s imaginary boyfriend, even though he’d admitted to punching her in her imaginary stomach.
Now they’re directing their wrath at a British journalist whom they’ve decided is being insufficiently grateful for being rescued from being hit by a speeding automobile by Ryan Gosling.
The backstory: Earlier in the week, British journalist Laurie Penny was wandering the streets of Manhattan, lost in thought, when she almost stepped off the curb into the path of a taxi. A man standing nearby grabbed her and pulled her to safety. That man happened to be famously hunky young actor Ryan Gosling.
Naturally, Penny tweeted about it, and her tweet aroused something of a Twitterstorm, in part because of the novelty of the situation, and in part because the thought of someone so dashing performing this little act of urban heroism made more than a few ladies (and men) swoon a little. I would probably react the same way if I heard a story about Kate Winslet saving a kitten.
Anyway, Penny was a little bit overwhelmed by all the attention her story was getting, and ended up writing a funny, spiky little essay for Gawker reminding people that while, yes, Ryan Gosling had indeed done a very nice thing for her, for which she was grateful, that it wasn’t really the biggest deal in the world. For one thing, she pointed out, lots of ordinary decent people perform similar acts of “heroism” all the time. For another, there are bigger heroes out there – like those working tirelessly to keep Rick Santorum from becoming our next president.
She ended the piece with this:
I really do object to being framed as the ditzy damsel in distress in this story. I do not mean any disrespect to Ryan Gosling, who is an excellent actor and, by all accounts, a personable and decent chap. …
But as a feminist, a writer, and a gentlewoman of fortune, I refuse to be cast in any sort of boring supporting female role, even though I have occasional trouble crossing the road, and even though I did swoon the teeniest tiniest bit when I realized it was him. I think that’s lazy storytelling, and I’m sure Ryan Gosling would agree with me.
And the thing is, I’m sure he would. I’m sure he’s as embarrassed about the attention as Penny is.
Well, for some people, Penny’s refusal to play the “boring supportive role” was simply unacceptable. Over on The National Review, antifeminist asshole Suzanne Venker wrote a snide and misleading piece portraying Penny as an ungrateful bitch:
If Western women want to know where all the good men have gone, they need only look in the mirror. Not only can men no longer hold the door open for women or pay the check after dinner, they can’t even save a woman’s life and get a simple thank you.
Never mind that Penny wrote explicitly that she was “grateful to the dashing and meme-worthy Mr. Gosling.” We can conclude that Venker either has terrible reading comprehension, or is deliberately lying about Penny. In any case, she continued on in this vein:
Feminists have totally destroyed the relationship between the sexes. Not all women seek the feminized version of the American male. Most women like big, strong, sexy men. They want men who are willing to put out fires, fight in combat, and, yes, even save damsels in distress. But in post-feminist America, Marlboro Man is a rare breed. We can thank women like Penny for that.
Well, actually, the reason the Marlboro Man isn’t around any more is that he died of lung cancer. (Well, to be more specific, two of the actors who portrayed the Marlboro Man did in fact die that way.) But let’s continue:
If Americans don’t wake up to the evils of feminism, the next time a woman walks down the wrong side of the street, the men of America will simply walk right past her and let her get hit.
And we’ll have no one blame but ourselves.
Really? Really? I’m pretty sure that Penny’s Gawker essay isn’t actually going to turn American men into a bunch of woman-hating psychopaths. I think we can all agree that Venker is being a giant turd here.
Well, not all of us, I guess. Someone posted Venker’s little screed to the Men’s Rights subreddit – you were wondering when I’d get back to them, weren’t you? And the regulars responded, well, like you would expect them to. Here are two of the most highly upvoted comments there, from two of the subreddit’s most prolific posters.
Stay classy. Men’s Rights Redditors!
@Robert
Geo Of A Men’s Project is also a great site to search for.
Ami is a woman she was never a man. A transwoman yes, a man no. -_-
Racism is about roles too — think about the hardworking Latino, the athletic African American, and the spiritual Native American. Not bad, as far as stereotypes go, but wouldn’t you rather be, y’know, you?
But I think there’s a difference between vague, fairly recent racial stereotypes and highly entrenched, almost forced gender roles. Yeah, it’s a gray area, and I need to think about it some more, but I just don’t think “Asian people are nerds” is equivalent to the rigidity of gender roles that have been at least vaguely consistent for centuries.
Another thing- note that it’s only the marginalized that face stereotypes- the in-group doesn’t. Someone else made this comparison, and I thought it was pretty good. Whites are sort of like the Human in MMORPGs- that is, balanced, and perceived as being able to do pretty much anything depending on where his/her own talents lie.
Why the fuck did you bring her up anyway to use her as an example as a “dude feeling down”? wow just wow.
I wanted to use examples of men who “didn’t fit in”. Since I thought Ami was a man who transitioned into a woman – she isn’t. I stand corrected. – I used her as an example. But now I realize casually using Manboobzers as examples wasn’t the best idea.
I didn’t wish to be misunderstood. It was stupid of me.
And note, I’m not trying to say racial oppression has been historically “worse” than women’s oppression, or anything like that. I’m making no value judgements at all, or at least, I’m trying not to. But I just think that they operate differently, and trying to explain why IMO the nature of sexism necessitates a men’s movement in addition to a feminist movement.
I do think a lot of the MRA hatefulness maybe comes from men who are at least subconsciously unhappy with capital-M Masculinity, and then subsequently feeling alienated or excluded from discussions about gender. Others are just reactionaries, but I think a surprising percentage are otherwise liberal. Not that this excuses their bullshit, of course, but I’m just looking to explain the phenomenon… because it really is a phenomenon. They’re everywhere on the internet.
Uhhh are you talking about trans people? No trans person “transitions into their gender” they are their gender. Some people choose to undergo surgery and hormones to allow them to be more comfortable in their body but thats not changing their gender. Ami is trans and was raised “as a boy” but she is a woman. Trans people are not “men or woman who don’t fit in”. fuck you
Ok Maya I’m sure I’ve already been ninja’d by the time I write this but Ami is not a man she’s a woman. That’s really fucked up that you would say that. People who are trans are not “men” or “women” just because they were assigned a certain gender at one time or another. They are the gender they are. As a man who is thoughtful about masculinity probably more so because I’m bisexual as opposed to straight so that might have given me more room to question gender norms than if I was just “normal” I know I still do have a lot of privilege in terms of being cis straight white etc. I’m also a feminist and I don’t think it takes anything away from that my being a man and a somewhat “masculine” one however you would define that. I’m really confused why you would call someone a man who is obviously not to prove some kind of point. How would you feel if you were in the same situation and someone did that to you?
And @Maya- Thanks a lot for referring me to that blog- it looks great. Seriously- this is the kind of thing I wish we had more of.
Crap, I can’t find the study right now, but there is a study where boys were given more attention that their girl classmates by their teachers in a classroom setting, and still felt ignored. I don’t absolutely know that one can extrapolate anything from that, but I’ll start by saying that I don’t know that “feeling addressed” is always a big concern.
What are you talking about specifically, then? Like, nurturer/protector? Firefighter/nurse? Mother/father? Hunter/gatherer? Be more specific and I can address it.
Oh, I don’t know what MMORPG is? But this — “Another thing- note that it’s only the marginalized that face stereotypes- the in-group doesn’t.” Isn’t strictly true. White people are stereotyped as smarter and more trustworthy, etc. Just because you’re not paying attention doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
@Robert
You’re welcome.
@abeegoesbuzz- Well, okay, but I wouldn’t call those steroetypes per se- I mean, “smarter” and “more trustworthy” don’t limit you. It might as well be “better”. Asians have a reputation for intelligence, but along with this comes nerdiness and social awkwardness… that is, they’re inept in other areas. Black people as athletes… and inept in other areas. A damaging stereotype has to box you in. “Being trustworthy” doesn’t box you into anything. You’re just better.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, that’s hilarious. We have an MRM that’s full of dudebros and brodudes who want to fight over who’s got the more submissive foreign wife and claim that any discussion over whether men should be allowed to wear skirts or cry openly distracts from their mission of denying that rape exists, and you think that men seek out the MRM because they wish they could get in touch with their “feminine side”?
I’m starting to suspect that Robert hasn’t encountered very many MRAs.
so what’s your opinion on the MRA argument that men are more oppressed because they are seen as “do-ers” and capable? that men have been oppressed more because they had to work hard, even though working hard is seen as admirable and of having good character. Working hard actually gets you money and prestige yet MRAs are now framing this as an oppression. What is your opinion of MRAs who think female “victimhood” is some kind of privilege? that somehow being seen as a weak, incapable female who needs another adult to care for her is so great. So great that women had to fight for their rights to education and career? so great that men are willing to take on this role because it’s much less oppressive than their current one?
So, to you, a stereotype is only a stereotype if it’s a negative stereotype.
And let me guess — a stereotype is negative … if you say it is? I love this game. To be clear, white-people stereotypes definitely put whites in a better place than minority stereotypes. I just want to see what kinds of mental acrobatics you have to go through to see that conclusion and ignore that men’s stereotypes put them in a similar situation.
You can laugh, but I really think a lot of MRAs are youngish people who are unhappy with their lives as men, that is, with the expectations that are placed upon them. Eventually, yeah I think it eventually gets twisted and turned around and used to justify all kinds of bile, but I really think that with a non-hateful men’s movement Elam and co. would find their audience drying up really fast.
I could be wrong- I don’t visit the extremist MRM sites very often because, well, they suck. Maybe I’m just naive. But a lot of the internet MRAs seem like young guys. You people would probably have more experience than me- am I wrong?
Men need to discuss gender without discussing male privilege, just like heteros need to discuss not being queer without discussing hetero-privilege, white people need to talk about race without discussing white privilege, able bodied people need to discuss being able bodied without discussing able bodied privilege, cis people need to discuss cis-ness without discussing cis privilege, etc.
@Robert, so, if “separate spheres” isn’t oppressive and considering one inferior, then feudalistic systems are not oppressive either, right, and it’s not fair to call the nobility or monarch privileged? After all, those systems have defined roles for peasants as well as defined roles for nobles and monarchs…
On the incest issues, it’s not just incest, it is incestuous child molestation. There’s room for debate/discussion of adult incest and issues of consent, there’s no room to discuss child molestation, esp. child molestation where the abuser violates a position of trust and closeness, in anything but a negative light. He was endorsing molestation, incestuous molestation.
Who knows how old anyone is online, but a fair number of regular MRA commenters/bloggers that I can think of at least say they’re in their 40s or older.
When you’re talking about expectations budding MRAs face, those would be different of course than the expectations one would face if one were stereotyped as “better.” Can you delineate how?
@Abeegoesbuzz- Look- here’s the difference, to me. I’ve never really heard the stereotype of “white people being more trustworthy” expressed explicitly those terms. The implication is there, sure, in the sense that white people are often treated as more trustworthy. But that’s just a function of white people being seen as, well, better than everyone else, in pretty much every sense. There’s no limitation placed on them.
I just think- I mean, in a racist community, there’s really no place for members of another race. In a sexist community, women and men both have a place, it’s just that men’s place is exalted above women’s- but it’s still objectively more constraining for men than a non-sexist society would be. Again- I’m not making any value judgement here… it’s just that I think the nature of sexism, again, necessitates a men’s movement.
And now that I’m sort of repeating myself, I suppose I’ll bow for the night. Maya- thanks a lot for the link, again. That’s great, I hope it starts something.
This is actually a very good idea. Think about it guys. Do you want these guys to be in a healthy environment with concerns they can relate to or stuck with terrible people like Paul Elam. If they feel there is something “in it for them”, it will be far easier for them to accept feminism and think of women’s issues critically and not feel excluded or threatened by it.
They’ll be less misogynistic assholes in the world. Isn’t that what we want, for women to be treated as full human beings and for people to be knowledgable and understanding rather than close-minded and ignorant?
His name is Robert Farson.
His name is Robert Farson.
His name is Robert Farson.
… sorry, couldn’t resist. 😛
A racist society has plenty of places for other races, like in the fields.
Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all night.
My understanding is that white folks aren’t treated as more trustworthy because they’re seen as better, necessarily… It’s more like other races are painted as less trustworthy (as gangbangers or something). Then again, white folks are also considered the default race, so society looks at a white person they just look at the person and not the white. It’s… pretty bad.
Peasants are great for all sorts of labor, therefore, feudalisms aren’t oppressive.
Good to know. e_e
You are such a fuckwit.
Oh, God, is this new little troll MRAL yet again? Because it really looks like MRAL.
If it is you, dude, GO AWAY. See a freaking therapist.