Another day, another threat – sorry, prediction – of impending violence towards women from someone on The Spearhead. This time from a fellow called James, in his twenties:
The OLDER MEN simply do not understand what it is like to be a young man today.
I will say one thing though- a very big percent of young men of my generation do not believe in this feminism or white knight bullshit, and they have very little tolerance towards it.
Older men will allow themselves to get ass raped in divorce courts, but the younger men of my generation have no such tolerance.
So if the younger women think they are going to treat the younger men with the same level of hatred that the older women do to the older men, they have a big surprise waiting for them.
1. Either the men will just entirely boycott the younger women
or
2. They will actively fight for their rights, even with force, if it requires it
What I mean by that is, the younger generation of men are much more violent than the older generation. So in plain English, if women think they are going to treat the younger generation of men like shit, then we are going to see a huge increase in violence against women.
In short, the men of my generation are not as willing to tolerate the abuse from man hating women as the older men are. Young women would be very wise to take note of this.
Unfair quote-mining on my part? Not exactly. James got 72 upvotes for this bit of wisdom on The Spearhead, and only 8 downvotes.
Meanwhile, our old friend at the Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology blog highlighted James’ comment in a post of his own, quoting the whole thing, and adding his own spin:
The younger you go on average you will find less tolerance for anything pro-female. This is not surprising. Even looking at my own life, I have been dealing with feminism since I was in elementary school especially if we define feminism correctly as feminine-ism. I remember (female) teachers being pro-female and anti-male going back to first grade. As bad as I had it, it is worse for men younger than me. They’re not going to listen to lies about how women are oppressed because all they have seen with their own eyes are the opposite. …
By 2020 the balance between men who are currently old vs. men who are currently young will have shifted. There will be less old men who remember life pre-feminism. There will be more young men who have spent their entire lives under the feminist jack boot. There will be more men who are completely fed up with women. Around 2020 there will be a lot more men willing to take radical direct action against feminism.
“Radical direct action against feminism?” What does this mean? Generalized violence against women, as James seems to suggest? Firebombing police stations and courthouses, as MRA “martyr” Tom Ball urged in his manifesto? Like most of those in the Men’s Rights movement who like to talk ominously about what they hope will be a massive anti-feminist backlash, the PMAFT blogger is vague about what exactly this might entail. But it’s not hard to connect the dots here.
Protip: MRAs, if you don’t want people to see the Men’s Rights movement as a hate movement — you need to stop posting, stop upvoting, stop even tolerating this kind of hateful shit.
I feel fairly confident in saying that most MRAs are not 11 or 12 years old. Immature, sure, but tweens? No. The fact that so many of them talk about bad experiences with divorce should give you a clue that these are not men in the high school and college age range, for the most part.
MRAs are largely divided between guys in their early 20s, who are mostly upset about not getting laid enough and/or rape being illegal, and guys in late middle age and older, who are mostly upset about not being married and/or not getting custody of their kids no matter how much they threaten to kill the judge. The number of MRAs between those two age groups seems to be fairly small.
I imagine a lot of young guys get into PUA stuff for a while and give it up once they realize that talking to women like humans is a lot cheaper and has the added side benefit of actually working sometimes.
With the young ones I kind of assume that most of them will grow out of it. It’s the ones who’re older that are a concern. If someone reaches Meller’s age and still hates (insert demographic group here), it’s very unlikely that they’re ever going to change.
I thought we were going with Meller being a 100+ year old time-traveling vampire?
Maybe we could call him Steampunk Santorum?
On behalf of steampunk fans everywhere I am fairly comfortable in saying oh hell no we don’t want him.
@ Need to Know: Second.
He’d make kind of a good bad guy for a Steampunk story, though. I see a plot twist at the end of in the second act when his dolls convince his clockwork soldiers to turn on him. He has a chance to get away, but he’s too busy ranting against bimetalism to notice his former minions aproaching until they drop a net on him.
PAN, would you say you’re a good example of the average man?
@indifferentsky,
“Predicting that violence is the outcome of people not doing anything wrong is not “weaksauce”. You like abusers or something, and your mental problems are not mine or ours. Stop coddling people that refuse to take responsibility for themselves and so then “predict” violence as an outcome. You’re just conceding that men are violent and who can help it- type thinking. It’s stupid.”
I KNOW that rape is hard to prove and even if he’s guilty, he can often claim it was consensual. But what to do about that? If there was a better way to make conviction of the guilty people easier apart from lowering the standard for what counts as evidence? Norwegian politicians apparently don’t think so… False rape is ok in our country, it’s called “accidental rape” – it doesn’t differ at all from concensual sex, apart from the mindset of the one who is the victim. Meaning it can’t be proven to be different from sex. And people go to jail for having normal sex and later finding out their partner felt raped and “couldn’t say no”. It’s possible some of them knew the partner didn’t want the sex, but we have to be able to read minds to prove it, and we can’t.
I’m a woman too, and don’t want any violence to happen to me. But I realize things might happen to me because of other women’s doing. So no, I don’t “like abusers or something”. I just can use logic, and realize that moral indignation is not gonna help me against bad outcomes. For example, do you realize that police might trust you less if you really get raped, because of all the false accusations (encouraged by all the propaganda on campuses that rape can be anything, including having sex with someone who had one small drink, or having sex with someone after asking for it for 2 hours)?
Of course men have responsibility for their actions. But my points were these:
1) People will not tolerate the intolerable for too long – it’s cruel to subject them to it and stupid to expect no backlash. Timid tolerance of abuse is not “being responsible”.
2) If you want the world to be a better place, you have to make sure what laws you’re creating and how you encourage people to act won’t have unintended consequences. You also have to remember that not all people are responsible, and some might, for example, lash out at innocent people due to unfairness and abuse they got from people they can’t harm (courts, police, politicians). Sure, that type of thing can happen no matter how fair the laws are, but you don’t want to make it worse, right?
Also, it’s very regrettable that you assume I must have mental problems. It’s a reaction that leaves people most vulnerable to bad consequences for everyone. It’s a lot easier to conclude someone is insane rather than find out where the problem came from, but it’s also more dangerous. You lose valuable clues on why a situation is the way it is and endanger those who you want to protect.
@Rutee,
“How stupid are you? You do realize we don’t extrapolate from MRAs’ asshattery to men, right?”
And how stupid are you? I was saying you were shitting on the entire MRA group. Imagine I did this with feminists. “They are all angry man-haters”. But they are not. And MRAs are not.
“Do you read the shit they write? It’s the conclusion that best follows from the evidence. I know you’re a lackwit who just has to protect her boyfriend, but do a better job than this shit.”
Yes, I read what they write, and if you bothered to see my latest blog post like I invited, you would see I’m capable of critisizing MRAs also. I don’t like hypocrisy. I just don’t think this particulal post was anything close to misogynist. And, I recommend you to use words like “shit” and “lackwit” more times, it makes you sound more right.
“We track the activities of hate groups and domestic terrorists across America, and we launch innovative lawsuits that seek to destroy networks of radical extremists.”
That is from their site. Nobody is charged, but they say they like to dissolve networks of “extremists”, which are (from Wikipedia) “Extremism is any ideology or political act far outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards” – that could be MRAs, since they are preceived to be outside the political center of society (and some claim they violate morals wih their views). Or are you saying SPLC uses another definition which is not in the dictionary?
“By which you mean writing misogynist rants and complaining about the gynocracy.”
No, some warn other men and some have been doing counseling work.
“I’m still waiting for the ‘logical’ underpinning of racism.”
Don’t. It’s not one of my interests. I was making a general point. You tried to get me to reveal hypocrisy by “excusing” MRAs and condemning racists, but I have the same attitude to everyone new that I don’t know. But actually… I’ve known people before that said very racist, angry things without being genuinely racist, because people of certain nationalities talk too loud right near their apartment every night, depriving them of sleep and health. If they posted a rant about it online, I bet you’d jump to the opportunity to call them racist, but I know (and everyone who knows them knows) they aren’t. That’s one example I know of.
“Saying they were always a sexist jackass is not saying they used to be calm.”
And how do you know they weren’t calm? Known them all your life? Maybe they were calm, maybe they weren’t. It just seems incredibly stupid to assume everyone who is now ranting about women AND got raped in divorce must have been so hateful all their life. What makes it likely?
“They theoretically could, but only one of them is evidenced as a widespread phenomenon, and it’s the latter”
Lessening the standard for evidence of rape as well as what defines rape and putting more innocent men in jail as a result is not forgivable even if it’s twice as little as the underreported rape problem. Or even 10 times as little. And in Norway at least, the false rape thing is not just evidenced as widespread phenomenon, it’s OBVIOUS for anyone who will take time to read what the law says.
Emma the Apologist evolved into Dictionary troll!
Emma, what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously, its not okay to be abused or treated like shit not even because some other woman treated him like shit before you.
Accidental rape from one small drink. Go fuck yourself….I had a friend who was raped that way, after the guy roofied the drink. When you listen to a friends blood curdling screams after being awoken by them at 2 am because she having nightmares still, then you can talk about how accidental the rape was and how its all just in her head.
Meller, Meller, Meller. Where do I even start with you? Maybe I should start by telling you flat out that if you think your little pinhead crusaders are going to rise up and just steamroller over all us weak little feminists, you’ve got another thing coming. I know you lot think anyone to the left of you is just a bunch of granola-eating, tie-dye-wearing pacifist hippies or limp-wristed homosexual stereotypes and you figure that we’ll run and hide at the first sign of a fight. Problem is that flies in the face of decades of history. We’ve stood up to the Klan. We’ve stood up to nazi skinheads. We’ve stood up to anti-abortion assassins and clinic bombers. We’ve had death threats sent to our homes and we’ve had our families stalked. We’ve spent most of our functional lives butting heads with people who wish us dead on a good day and occasionally do manage to assault or murder us when they can get away with it.
So what the precise fuck do you and the rest of your pack of morlocks think you’re going to bring that we haven’t all ready stared right in the face? Are we supposed to be afraid of a bunch of whiny, entitled guys who think not getting laid by supermodels six times a week is the height of injustice? Are we supposed to be afraid of men who only attack when they can do so from ambush, or when they know their targets are unarmed or alone? The best you can hope for is to inspire some broken individual to acts of violence in the hopes of creating a climate of fear. There’s no glorious revolution coming for you and you know it.
The answer’s complicated, but “constantly scream about FALSE ACCUSATIONS” definitely ain’t it.
This is one of those “counter to what they think, MRAs didn’t invent misogyny” things–the idea of “hey… what if we called rape victims liars and didn’t try to investigate their rapes?” was in society way before you guys. Don’t get too proud.
“So in plain English, if women think they are going to treat the younger generation of men like shit, then we are going to see a huge increase in violence against women.”
How is that not misogynist?!?! Seriously. The guy thinks women treat men like shit (hating women), and he thinks therefore random violence against women is justified/predicted/exciting (hating women). If that’s not misogynist what the hell is?
If you ask most rapists, yes, they’ll say they thought it was consensual.
Coincidentally, if you ask most burglars, they’ll say they thought it was a gift.
I don’t think MRAs are so adorably naive that they don’t understand that criminals usually deny being criminals.
If a man is violent against you, that’s HIS DOING. No need to look for the Secret Evil Woman behind the curtain. Men are people and they can make decisions. If they decide to hurt you that’s on them.
Police often don’t trust rape victims because they, like you, have heard the myth that false accusations are everywhere.
Also, I HATE FUCKIN’ HATE when MRAs say the “oooh, if it’s one drink it’s rape!” thing, because it’s a lie, and because it’s used to delude themselves into thinking every rape report is therefore just a case of one drink, no matter how horrific.
Also on what planet is badgering someone for sex for two hours okay with you? Holy fuck. That’s a goddamn nightmare.
Again, I don’t think you’re really that adorably naive.
Most criminals would lash out at the people who got them arrested and convicted, if they could. You think someone needs to be innocent to do that?
I like how it’s okay to say that a divorce judgement is “rape” but not THAT ACTUAL RAPE IS.
Oh hey look! One of my tenants is being arrested right now for beatting the shit out of hIs girlfriend. Emma, can you come down here and explain to the cops how she deserves her now broken arm and massive bruises because some other woman was mean to him at some point in his life? Or maybe she forgot to fold his t shirts the right way?
“I’ve concluded that MRAs are real woman-haters who want to hurt women because they say they are. Often.”
Lol, even the pro-rape MRA turned out normal IRL and caring, but he’s but one guy, so I will give this statement some thought. I’ve been on MRA sites for a while, and what I see is usually this: a) “All women are sluts and want an alpha to fuck them roughly and treat them like shit” – this type, I predict, will turn nice again if a nice girl comes along (even if he denies it). Unless he’s robbed in divorce – won’t trust a woman.
b) “Women today are mean and used us long enough, don’t be surprised if government money runs out/violence increases”
If that is what you interpret as baseless misogyny and threats, I’m guessing you’re wrong. I already explained why.
Again, I will agree with you that some MRAs openly admitted they turned misogynist (turned, not born). Makes me sad and I wish people didn’t, by induction, conclude all “group A” is “like that” just because they either encountered no exceptions, or majority of “group A” was like that. But everyone does it, including you (now). It doesn’t make it ok (although people can feel whatever they like, even be racist deep down if they want), but you’re just not better, that’s all.
“We know that’s a lie because nearly every damn person who has been hurt by another person fails to take that hurt and turn it into a reason to hate half the population.”
You’re doing a great job… Except you hate MRAs and you perhaps haven’t been hurt by them. But it’s not unusual, I heard it before. “I was agreeing with MRAs before but found out they were evil misogynists”. What, like the whole MRA group, every single one? Thank god I know nice feminists exist, or I would have ended up like you.
“You have written at length about how you have a low self-esteem in order to keep your beta boyfriend happy, and how beneficial it is to think of yourself as ugly and undeserving of alpha cock, in order to keep yourself from acting out your hypergamous nature as a woman.”
Nah, it was advice to those who had a hypergamy problem (which they admitted to have), just something to try. It’s true I used to have low SE as a teenager (many people do), but it’s been proportionate to my abilities for many years. I figured that having low standards for wealth, looks and pretty much everything else apart from character had something to do with my low SE and high achieving personality in the past, so I decided to write suggestions (which is the blog post you’re talking about). it’s kinda like rising to wealth out of poverty and being willing to help out those who used to be like you – you know approximately how it feels to be beta and don’t look down on them because they are beta.
@pillowinhell
How is that related to the topic? Where did I argue women deserved violence? Nowhere.
Everyone’s nice when they’re getting everything they want. That’s not impressive.
“I’m not getting everything I want out of women, but I still believe they’re human beings who think just the way I do”–that’s my minimum standard for a decent human being. It’s actually not that hard to attain. Hell, I can do it!
There’s no such thing as a “hypergamy problem.” If you’re not happy with your partner, or with the available potential partners around you, that’s a real thing, and you have no obligation to somehow make yourself happy with them. Nobody gets guaranteed the partner they want, but everybody has the right to try and hold out for the partner they want.
Busy now Emma. There’s a woman here who needs help. She’s been living here with her BF, but she’s not on the lease so I can’t let her back into the unit once asshole is in jail. She’s now homeless and will likely lose her job because she can’t work.
What the fuck do you think you’ve been saing here all thjis time? Deal with this discussion later.
Dear Emma,
I think your time might be better spent writing another passive-aggressive post on your blog. Something along the lines of this one, perhaps? http://emmatheemo.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/a-strange-derailing-argument-ive-encountered/.
That way, people who actually want your opinion on MRAs and rape can seek it out there.
Thanks.
@pillowinhell
One alcoholic drink, not roofie. And lots of people here love to offer me horror stories about their friends and relatives and try to pass it off as argument. I am very sorry about your friend, but how does that make it ok to imprison someone for “rape” if the person who had sex with them only had one non-drugged drink? That’s what they teach people in universities – that you can accuse someone of rape if you had one alcoholic drink.
@Holly
“The answer’s complicated”
Lets hear it – that would be great if there is one. I’m serious. I would like a way to imprison more guilty people without increasing the number of innocent people in jail. If you know it, you’re already smarter than Norwegian politicians.
And the OP doesn’t sound misogynist and I already explained why many times. You’re confusing statement of fact and willingness to defend himself with a threat.
“If you ask most rapists, yes, they’ll say they thought it was consensual.”
But you don’t have to be a rapist to think it was consensual! That is the point- HOW to tell them apart? How do you tell apart these:
1) A couple starts having sex, no words are said, both are into it
2) Woman doesn’t want it, doesn’t say no or fight, goes through with the motions because she’s scared.
“If a man is violent against you, that’s HIS DOING. No need to look for the Secret Evil Woman behind the curtain. Men are people and they can make decisions. If they decide to hurt you that’s on them.”
Sure, but lets say you’re in prison for drugs, and have to share a cell with a violent rapist who rapes you, and you can’t leave. Of course he should be punished and jailed, if that is what you’re asking about. But the lawmakers increase your chance of being raped. There is no contradiction between holding people responsible for their actions AND making precautions about people’s behavior IN GENERAL.
“Also, I HATE FUCKIN’ HATE when MRAs say the “oooh, if it’s one drink it’s rape!” thing, because it’s a lie, and because it’s used to delude themselves into thinking every rape report is therefore just a case of one drink, no matter how horrific.”
Take that up with people who decided one drink was enough for it to be rape. It’s not MRAs. I hate it too, because it ruins things for real rape victims. Remember, MRAs aren’t mainstream nowadays, they can’t really spread “myths” harder than feminists can. You could be right that general lack of belief for rape victims is out there, but I wouldn’t blame MRAs for it – they aren’t big enough to make it.
“Also on what planet is badgering someone for sex for two hours okay with you? Holy fuck. That’s a goddamn nightmare.”
It’s not ok, but is it rape? If he was acting like a kid who wants his parents to buy him candy, no. Don’t you think there is a middle ground between perfectly correct pleasant sexual behavior and rape?
If police departments took more rape claims seriously and stopped using BS like “they’d had sex before” or “she probably just regrets it” as excuses to not investigate, that would imprison many more guilty people.
Can I promise no innocent people? I can’t. But that’s the case with any law. You can’t enforce burglarly law, or arson law, and promise no innocent people will ever be convicted.
It doesn’t matter if you’re “a rapist.” It matters if you raped someone. You don’t need to think you’re a rapist to have forced someone to have sex.
Want to avoid this? Only have sex with people who want it! It’s actually not that complicated. I know there’s the boogeyman of the woman who’s all over your dick and then says “secretly in my head I didn’t want that,” but you know what? Like “one drink,” that’s a goddamn strawman that gets thrown in the faces of women who were blatantly terrorized and forced into sex.
Stating that men are going to start attacking women is not “willingness to defend himself.” He doesn’t say “if a woman threatens my life I’ll attack her,” he says that he expects/clearly wants men to start just lashing out at any random woman, as payment for the perceived collective sins of women.
Then that was his decision. While the jail administration may have been actionably negligent (if they paired you with a known prison rapist, didn’t respond to calls for help), ultimately they didn’t decide to rape you. He did. Don’t fall into the “he was a wild beast, all the blame lies on those who angered the beast” trap. Men are people.
Actually, it’s assholes going “I bet she just had one drink and regrets it!” that ruin things for real rape victims. And (you’re being adorably naive again) assholes can say that and make people believe it no matter how often it actually happens.
This is true. MRAs don’t have nearly as much influence as garden-variety misogynists. They just wish they did.
My vagina isn’t candy and men aren’t children.
As for whether it’s rape to badger someone for two hours… to be honest, I think it barely matters. It’s something you’ll never get a conviction for and it’s a fucking horrible thing that no one should ever do–does the label matter, beyond that?
Emma, just read your blog and I’ve read stuff from you BF before. There is zero point in talking further to you, you’ve commited yourself to a cause I want nothing to do with. You can keep telling yourself that you don’t advocate for violence because while you won’t commit it, you’ll stand behind the men who do.
One drink is enough to get some people legally impaired. If I’m too tipsy to drive, then I’m too tipsy to consent to sex soberly. Sobriety is measured by the normal functioning of your brain, impairment is impairment. The laws regarding alcohol and sex have been in Canada for quite some time. What is really the cost of waiting until your potential sex partner is sober to ask for or have sex? A little inconvenience.
Also, emotions come and go and aren’t easily controlled. What actions you take to vent your emotions IS absolutely under your control, so stop with the “oh but he was upset” shit.
If a white knight is some dude who comes in to defend teh ladiez no matter how feminist they are, in hopes of sex, then what is the term for a woman who defends the misogynists and rape apologists and MRA trollz…….for some reasons that I don’t even want to think about?
Enabler? Vomit-inducing double-thinking patriarchal apologist?
Let me think a while; I’m sure I can come up with more.