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actual activism antifeminism drama grandiosity hypocrisy misogyny MRA MRA paradox oppressed men reddit terrorism

Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)

Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”

When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.

Consider this post:

Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.

Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:

Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:

Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.

Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.

Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.

The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.

And then there’s this post:

I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!

Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?

EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:

Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:

[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.

Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.

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Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Cassandra

That’s interesting to me actually. One of the things that I noticed about how sexism is upheld versus racism is that, sexism is generally upheld through a sense of superiority in men and fear in women, whereas racism is often upheld through a sense of superiority in one race, as well as a fear of “those savages” whomever the savages may be. So when you say that you didn’t find the comments threatening, I think that’s somewhat unique because, IME, a lot of white people DO find those comments threatening, especially when they’re expats in a non-Western country. And I think that’s something fostered by a supremacist system as part of othering those people, and justifying treating them as different.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Okay… okay. This has gotten ridiculous, and I’ve kind of lost track of the whole discussion. Let’s say I was mansplaining. I don’t see it, and it wasn’t my intent, but let’s say I was. I’m sorry. Is that enough? What do you want me to do?

@Cassandra, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. Just saying, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that everything’s got to work out in your favor. That’s not how it works.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

*one caveat though. This is filtered through the experiences of White expats in Africa, where things are more unstable for White people than in the Middle East (not sure about Asia)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

@ Shadow

Hmm. In my experience some people I grew up with, other expats, did exist in a state on constantly feeling threatened. It always seemed ridiculous to me because there were just so many situations in which it was so obvious that white privilege was protecting us in a way that no one else was protected. Example – when I was about 9 or 10, in Saudi, I once decided to go wandering around the sports complex that was under construction near my house in the middle of the night. So there I was, exploring in my PJs, and the local cops spotted me, stopped, and asked me what I was doing. Initially they were quite hostile, but as soon as they figured out that I was a British foreigner (I was frequently mistaken for Persian at first glance in Saudi), their attitude totally changed and they just drove me home and told me very nicely to please not wander around alone at night. Even at that age, I knew that if I hadn’t been a white foreigner that experience would not have ended well. And stuff like that happened all the time.

I do think that people who grew up 3rd culture from very early childhood, like I did, tended to interpret their experiences very differently than people who became expats as adults, so yeah, my perspective may be a bit weird.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

To clarify- there just seems to be a level of entitlement there, with the expectation to carry on an exclusive conversation in a group thread, and it seems like it might speak to some larger entitlement.

magdelyns
9 years ago

Well, my pretty, I can cause accidents, too.

magdelyns
9 years ago

Complexities of feminist theories; blame everything on the man. let’s go to an island so we can frolic in lesbian delight. oh, and men suck. if it wasn’t for them, my life would have been happy.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Nah, it just speaks to the fact that I don’t really want to talk to you because, as ithiliana said, you’re not coming across very well. That sure is some entitlement you have there, thinking that everyone has to want to engage with you.

PDA
PDA
9 years ago

As opposed to, say, Magdelyn, who is perfectly happy carrying on a conversation with herself.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

I’m not saying everyone wants to or has to engage with me. I’m just speaking to the fact that you’re having a private conversation on a public channel. And that’s fine, but it’s kinda weird that you’re mad at me for butting in. Maybe everything usually goes your way, probably it does. But you have no right for that always to be so. And your sociological theory was cannonballed.

magdelyns
9 years ago

cassandrasays, your privilege is showing.

darksidecat
9 years ago

@AVT,

…also because I don’t think what I’m saying is very controversial.

If you’ve read Dworkin and Twisty, you would know your statements were anything but uncontroversial within feminist theory. Your own short list is enough to demonstrate that if you had actually comprehended even those, you would know that your “theory” isn’t some indisputable statement. Even with your incredibly limited knowledge, you should have fucking known better.

I stand by what I said, but for the record, it’s not my intent to engage in denialism.

What you said WAS denialism. I’m not making a tone argument here, the contents of your statements were denialism. And you stand by them, so you are engaging in denialism.

That’s my interpretation of patriarchy as an axis of oppression..

This. This is exactly what I was calling bullshit on. Your interpretation is utter privilege denying crap. Your denials of male privilege are crap, your denials of intersectionality* are crap, your attempts to attack femme women are crap (femme women have privilege and are agents of the patriarchy? Hell to the fuck no.), your entire spiel is crap.

“It’s just my opinion” is absolutely not a fucking decent counterargument (with a few slim exceptions regarding pure aesthetics).

The thing is, if you’re going to come in swearing and screaming, I’m going to react a little defensively, as I did here.

Also, you’re a total fucking tone troll, and a hypocrite.

*In the interst of continuing Ithiliana’s point about erasure of black women’s theory, I’ll point out that this term was coined and this theory developed in large part by Kimberle Crenshaw. http://www.socialdifference.org/files/active/0/Article__Mapping_the_Margins_by_Kimblere_Crenshaw.pdf

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

You really don’t think feminine women receive benefits for being feminine?

Twisty Faster I consider kind of a fringe idiot, although a good writer with a coherent philosophy, which is why I follow her. Likewise Dworkin. They do not have a major voice in mainstream feminism.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

AVT, dude, you’re getting more ridiculous with each comment. Seriously, just stop digging. When you’re aggressively unpleasant on a forum where nobody knows you, it makes it extremely unlikely that people will respond to you in a positive way.

You also need to learn the difference between mockery and anger.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Tbh, I’m sick of you, DSC. You’re an asshole. If you can’t see why I might have a negative reaction to someone coming in and immediately saying things like “fuck you” and “you’re full of shit”, you’re an idiot. That’s not being a “tone troll”, it’s taking offense to someone who can’t even show me basic human respect. Fuck off.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Dworkin is actually a fairly important, though controversial, figure in terms of feminist history. She doesn’t have any current voice because she’s, you know, dead.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@AVT

Aside from any other issues Cassandra may have with what you’ve written, if you can’t see that opening the lines of communication with this piece of dickbaggery:

and I’m just sharing my own personal experience, mine, not extrapolating this to anyone, so please hold off on calling me a mansplainer

will net you the reception that you got, then there’s no helping you.

@Cassandra

I do think that people who grew up 3rd culture from very early childhood, like I did, tended to interpret their experiences very differently than people who became expats as adults, so yeah, my perspective may be a bit weird.

yeah, I can see that difference between myself and my parents. I can also see it between my parents and some of my other aunts and uncles because they both studied in the USSR, where all the foreign students kind of banded together, so they had friends from many different of cultures, contrasted with those aunts and uncles who studied in India and Sri Lanka. This is only true of people who immerse themselves in the culture though. I had so many friends and acquaintances who were born and raised in Africa, but grew up in such insulated communities that they still came out racist as fuck. I’m sure you would have found the same thing going on out there too.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

CassandraSays probably would think that, privileged prefect that she is.

Lauralot
9 years ago

You know, if you want to complain about being addressed insultingly by another poster, you probably shouldn’t treat everyone you engage with in the thread like total shit.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

@ Shadow

Yep to the first part. If someone opens communication like that, things are never going to end well. It’s kind of hilarious how oblivious he is to why exactly interactions aren’t going well for him here, though.

Yeah on the second part too. There was a very clear pattern in every place I ever lived where some expats would wall themselves off in hermetically sealed little communities, and others would actually interact with their surroundings. I never did want much to do with the first group, and luckily neither did my parents.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Also, Shadow, probably OT for this thread, but I’d love to hear about the experiences of your various relatives studying in the USSR at some point. (Is a communist history geek.)

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Cassandra

Yep for sure. I don’t know if I mentioned this before, but my grandad (mom’s dad) was actually one of the founders of the Communist party in Sri Lanka. That’s actually why my parents (and a couple of my uncles and aunts as well) studied out there. It’s too bad I didn’t meet you a couple of years ago (we lost him in ’05), I would have hooked you guys up through e-mail. He would have adored having someone to talk communism with.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

That’s so cool. Sorry to hear about your grandad’s passing away. I’m sure he would have been fascinating to talk to, and to have grown up with.

darksidecat
9 years ago

You really don’t think feminine women receive benefits for being feminine?

Nope, they don’t. Femme women get a whole ton of shit piled on them, including things like presumed incompetence. It’s a lose-lose situation. And they are most certainly not privileged for being feminine.

You are so totally dishonest about even the most basic shit, like a basic fucking understanding of major feminist movements.

Tbh, I’m sick of you, DSC. You’re an asshole. If you can’t see why I might have a negative reaction to someone coming in and immediately saying things like “fuck you” and “you’re full of shit”, you’re an idiot. That’s not being a “tone troll”, it’s taking offense to someone who can’t even show me basic human respect. Fuck off.

More tone trolling and hypocrisy. You are so full of shit it’s dripping from your ears. You’re pretty much the definition of tone troll right now http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tone%20troll http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_troll

PS. Fuck you, you’re full of shit.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@iShadow: It’s funny, but all those myths and out of context quotes of Dworkin and Daly actually drove home the concept of privilege to me, rather than the intended effect of considering feminism a hate movement. My introduction to feminism was actually through stumbling across some rad fem comments,which led me to some pretty dismissive to almost outright man-hating blogs. The utter indifference that their comments provoked in me, compared to the sense of unease that I got when I read White supremacists’ comments made the idea of privilege much easier to understand once I encountered it.

This is absolutely fascinating–and something I’d never heard of before. The whole idea of learning about feminism through various types of quotations and commentary on the internet is something I’ve thought about often.

ithiliana
9 years ago

What do you want me to do?

Well, if you’re serious about this question, read the following:

1. If you want to have actual discussions of feminisms, especially with feminists, you could understand that framing statement with “it’s just my opinion” is not a “get out of argument free card,” and that you should back up such claims with some sort of evidence. Just for Mags: you are arguing from a privileged position and by definition an ignorant one, which is what led to the mansplaining issue.

For example: what benefits do you see “feminine women” getting from the patriarchy? Specifics, plus examples, required to support a claim that not just “here is this claim I’m throwing out without any support and expecting people to “respect” you (whatever that means)”. Protip: I am sure everybody respects your basic human rights, but that doesn’t mean we have to 1) agree with you; 2) coddle your entitled little manly feelings, or 3) use the language you demand.

2. Don’t do fauxpologies: aka: I’m sorry IF you were offended type of thing as you did. And following a fauxpology with “is that enough?” also not incredibly useful.

3. Stop namecalling: “fringe idiot” for example. (Also, if you identify one feminist’s position as fringe, compared to mainstream, what do you consider mainstream feminism?)

4. Understand the basic premise of what CassandraSays said: When you’re aggressively unpleasant on a forum where nobody knows you. . .

Yes, it’s a ‘public’ blog but as with all blogs, there is a community here where people have built up histories and relationships online. Anybody who barges in and starts demandng stuff is going to be met with some resistance (given how many misogynists post here, how much trolling goes on, etc.) How long did you lurk, and how much of the discussions here have you read, if any? How much do you actually know about this blog and its community? I read here for some months, and only then began, cautiously, to interact.

5. Although this might be 4.1: Understand you’re not a special, unique snowflake: that is, as I’d noted with regard to my asking previous trolls who claim to know feminist theories or read feminist authors, you’re not the first to post here and start mansplaining, and a lot of your rhetoric is very very very very familiar to anybody who has been involved in feminism for any time, AND to anybody who knows some of the basic conventions of internet discourse. Also, tone trolling.

So, there you go! Totally up to you of course, but you did ask.

ithiliana
9 years ago

*points up* Just in case it’s not clear from context, that post is addressed to AVT.

Pecunium
9 years ago

AVT: It’s got nothing to with what one says, but how. If a man comes in and makes a statement of his opinion, and does it in a way which implies that opinion should be given preference, or weight, or just be accepted… that can be mansplaining.

Saying, “It’s a good thing I wasn’t doing that”, was mansplaining that the people who saw that aspect, were wrong by virtue of not being you… which is claiming an authority.

Context and subtext are important.

@Cassandra, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you.

Really? By telling her to take a public conversation to email because you did something rude and she got snarky?

you seem to be laboring under the delusion that everything’s got to work out in your favor. That’s not how it works.

You might want to read that again, and ponder Socrates comments on the unexamined life.

Tbh, I’m sick of you, DSC. You’re an asshole. To be slightly contentious… why should DSC care? Zie has no reaason to give a damn about your good opinion of her and your theories are cracked, your explanations patronising and your tone offensive.

It’s a public conversation, with a large number of particpants, of wide, and varied, experience, undertsanding and interest. You show up and act as if your understanding of things ought to be considered afresh; as if it weren’t something often seen before (see above, re mansplaining). You are pissy to the regulars (who do have the privilege which comes of being a known quantity) and then seem to think you’re a special snowflake who ought to be coddled and treated well just because why?

Because you came to share.

Not the way it works. There is a basic level of respect people get. There is the respect you earn in a community by taking part (for good or ill), and there is the respect one pisses away by not taking a look around before making a cannonball splash in the deep end of the pool.

If you actually step back, look at what you said, how you said it and what you then did to upset the people who have responded to you, you can get the level of hostility you’ve created to abate. But you have to want it. It’s not gonna just happen because you stamp your feet and declaim how unfair people are being.

To use your model, they don’t think they are being unfair, which is their opinion, and perfectly valid.

Pecunium
9 years ago

And what ithiliana said.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I think feminine women and masculine women get different things from the patriarchy at times: feminine women get less looks-shaming, masculine women get less unwanted sexual attention, feminine women are seen as more likable, masculine women are seen as more competent.

But these are more like “different bites of the shit sandwich” benefits (especially since it’s never “no looks-shaming” or “seen as just as competent as a man”); being a feminine woman isn’t a privilege so much as a different way to experience oppression.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@Holly: good points! And even those differences are heavily tied to intersectional issues: that is, young white slim able-bodied and conventionally attractive feminine women may for a short time believe that they receive benefits (pure on their own merits of course) from men within the patriarchal system, but those ‘privileges’ are heavily continent on a number of factors that will inevitably change.

“Temporarily favored because one fits the ideal paradigm” is not the same thing as privileged.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

But in that case, isn’t male privilege tied to a similar paradigm?

ithiliana
9 years ago

AVT: But in that case, isn’t male privilege tied to a similar paradigm?

Not sure what you mean here, but you might be talking about Intersectionality. In a kyriarchial system (definition here), there are interconnected and interlocking axes of identity: it makes no sense to talk only about gender, or only about class, etc.

In the intersectional theory, males in any group have privilege that women in that group don’t; one of the favorite things our misogynistic trolls like to talk about is how men have to work hard and die young in terrible jobs while women sit around eating bonbons being supported by men: they claim this was historically true for millennial, and also that it’s just come about because feminist oppression.

That makes sense only if you identify the intersections: working class men, and upper-class women. The idea that working class women (or during the medieval and early moden periods) peasant women (and peasant was the numerically but not socially dominant category in the noble/church/peasant class structure) worked physically hard and as demanding a job as men n their class PLUS had more responsibility for childcare is lost on them.

MEN have male privilege; WHITE people have race privilege (I’m talking US here), STRAIGHT people have straight privilege. As a WHITE woman, I am a member of a class that has benefitted from affirmative action in hiring (universities) more than men of COLOR (but men of COLOR have benefitted more from male privilege than women of COLOR). As a QUEER woman, I have less privilege on the gender and sexuality, but do have CLASS (university professor) and RACE privilege.

By talking only about men and women, which is what most misogynists do, you revealed a lack of knowledge intersectionality.

It is not, however, a way to say that there’s some equality or equivalence in “benefitting” from the patriarchal between what was it that you said: masculine men and feminine women (which you never defined).

There are all sorts of women that might be categorized as feminine (again, not that useful a term in feminist theory because it assumes a single universal definition that doesn’t exist) who do not benefit that much because of age, disability status, weight, race, etc. etc. etc.

ithiliana
9 years ago

Rats. Sorry for HTML fail.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@AVT: and also note how male privilege especially when joined with race, class, sexuality, etc. privilege plays out — so that yeah, all those corporate boards of directors that David featured a few posts ago–a lot of old white men who I am damn sure are predominantly straight and whose family incomes are a lot more based on ASSETS (taxed differently than) INCOME.

And that’s the point of that discussion: sure most men are NOT in that group. But men in any demographic group by virtue of male privilege have more privilege than women in that group, and are going to be treated very differently.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Fair enough. I appreciate the civility. It’s just that your contention that gender performance means nothing, well, in an academic and/or theoretical sense I understand where you and Holly are coming from. But empirically, that simply doesn’t seem to be grounded in the real world. There are studies that show attractive people (of both genders) make more money. They have the knowledge that the culture is behind them. They will be disproportionately represented in the media. Maybe this isn’t a “privilege” per se… but I have a hard time accepting that it counts for nothing.

Bostonian
9 years ago

No one said gender performance means nothing, it just does not mean what you think it means.

Empirically, women who perform femininity get some substantial disadvantages with the small perks of being treated slightly better in some situations.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: AVT

What does gender performance have to do with attractiveness? O_o They’re two completely different things.

ithiliana
9 years ago

AVT: There are studies that show attractive people (of both genders) make more money. They have the knowledge that the culture is behind them. They will be disproportionately represented in the media.

Well, not having read or having the experience to evaluate the studies, only having heard about them, I cannot speak to them–but I would bet a real nickle that “attractive” (straight, white, middle or upper class, etc.) men benefit more than women and for longer (look at the relative ages of white male celebrities vs. white female celebrities). And all the studies show that (allowing for variables such as time worked and within the same professions), men (straight,white) earn more than (straight white) women.

There is also a dominant cultural narrative that when a straight white man makes it big, it’s his own individual success (based on merit); when anybody else makes it, it’s to satisfy a quota, or because of appearance/manipulation/etc. So “success” in any field is credited differently based on gender (and race), etc. And ‘attractiveness’ is heavily culturally determined (there are lots of studies that show how much more money, proportional to income, women have to spend to achieve that level of attractiveness which has a lot to do with make-up (yes a few more men are wearing bronzer now, but it’s nowhere near the same), clothing, high heels (which if worn continually are going to have severe physical effects), etc.).

Your earliest posts seemed to be claiming that “feminine women” were in some way equivalent to the ideal category of men–I’m not feeling like going back and reading/quoting, but the (very rude and insulting implications) way you talked about it was simplistic and overgeneralized (as others have pointed out to you–most of them civilly).

And for your sense that the incivility was somehow unwarranted–again, if a person has heard the sort of mansplaining crap that was a part of your earlier posts again and again and again and again and again for years and years and years, well, then as far as I’m concerned the anger is perfectly warranted. Your ignorance of the way your rhetoric tapped into sexist, paternalistic, and at times misogynistic discourses is not an excuse.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: ithiliana

Also, “attractive” can really skew in different ways.

For instance, back when I IDed as a cis girl, I was Barbie. Put me pretty high up on the ladder. But funny, once I start IDing as a trans man, suddenly I wasn’t nearly as attractive to people. “Attractive,” in many people’s minds, means “cis-looking.”

ithiliana
9 years ago

@LBT: Yes, definitely–there are a bunch of interconnections that limit “attractiveness” to a relatively small population, and usually for a limited time.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Well, frankly, I think it’s more simplistic to reduce everything to “male privilege” (or, if we’re talking about kyriarchy, “white straight male privilege”). And you might have all this impressive SJ language from kyriarchy 401, but in the end, I sort of see a lot of justification for oversimplification.

I mean sure, let’s say attractive men have a longer “shelf life”- that’s probably a function of male privilege, right? But as I’ve heard people say, privileges don’t cancel each other out. An attractive woman still has opportunities that unattractive women don’t have. Can you explain to me how this is not a privilege?

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

AVT, I’m seconding LBT in saying that conforming to gender roles =/= attractiveness. I’m assuming you mean conventional attractiveness, but even then it falls apart. A hyper feminine fat woman in her 60s is not conventionally attractive.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

“Feminine” and “attractive” aren’t synonyms. A fat, elderly disabled woman may be feminine as all get out, but she’s not getting any Pretty Points from the patriarchy.

Bostonian
9 years ago

No one has said the people do not have privilege relative to one another. There is a clear hierarchy in the US, and Europe that is broken down on color and gender lines. This is reflected in income and opportunities.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Cassandra

Oh yeah, growing up in a multigenerational household was really enlightening, though that was also due to how intelligent my grandparents were. They both shaped a lot of who I am. but not being a communist myself, and being a restless teen, I didn’t get as much out of the time I spent with him that I should have.

@ithiliana

My path may have been somewhat unusual because I’m always interested in how other people view the world, which is why I checked out WN and rad fem sites even though I knew they would not have pleasant things to say about people like me. However, I think there are a lot of people that saw feminists calling out sexism on the internet, who decided to check out those commenters’ blogs and thus becoming introduced to the feminist blogosphere.

@AVT

Can you explain to me how this is not a privilege?

Holly said this like 10 comments above you

I think feminine women and masculine women get different things from the patriarchy at times: feminine women get less looks-shaming, masculine women get less unwanted sexual attention, feminine women are seen as more likable, masculine women are seen as more competent.

But these are more like “different bites of the shit sandwich” benefits (especially since it’s never “no looks-shaming” or “seen as just as competent as a man”); being a feminine woman isn’t a privilege so much as a different way to experience oppression.

Maybe you could try refuting that before demanding more explanations. Also, noone here is your professor, and they are not here to educate you, so understand that demands to do so won’t be met kindly. Finally, many of the commenters here ARE professors and academics, so if you’re going to sit here pooh-poohing what they say, might I suggest you flash some credentials to tell them why they should bother taking you seriously. I’m not an academic and I’ve run across discussions about your claims so I’m finding it hard to take you seriously.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Also, being conventionally attractive does tend to give you some privilege over those who aren’t, but that’s as relevant to gender privilege as class or race. The fact that a white woman is more privileged than me because she’s white, says nothing about our hierarchical standings as a man and woman.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Okay, than let’s go with pretty privilege here, forget performance. Are you seriously willing to tell me that attractive people aren’t afforded opportunities rooted in said attractiveness? I mean, you really can’t say that, because studies have amply demonstrated that conventionally attractive people actually make more money on average.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

As far as (conventional) attractiveness, in some ways it IS a privilege, but it still doesn’t cancel out being a woman. Pretty women make more than other women; they don’t make more than pretty men.

Also, pretty women are more subject to sexual harassment and more likely to be assumed to be dumb and shallow.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Sure, so? Being white is a privilege. Being rich is a privilege. But rich, white women still get to eat the shit sandwich that is sexism.