Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”
When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.
Consider this post:
Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.
Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:
Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:
Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.
Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.
Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.
The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.
And then there’s this post:
I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!
Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?
EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:
Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:
[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.
Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.
There my friend is how corporations make money off of you. And they keep shifting the shit over and over again so you will keep buying and never be satisfied.
Well, if one is defining woman as a social construct, then being womanly is that which people who define themselves as women do. We all know that there are characteristics that women associate with women. To what extent these are affectations to everybody is up for debate. But, I present the way I choose…which so happens to be more rather convensional, as I’ve written:
“…For some reason, women and gay men really like my look. I think it is the dramatic, retro sexuality that educated women now think inappropriately deferential to the patriarchy. I have been accused by other trans people of being a sexist because of my interpretation of femininity. Maybe women like that I emphasize the curvature of my form, which harks back to an earlier perception of the feminine — out of style today — built on a 5’10” frame made taller with heels…”
Today being womanly means sitting around in my comfy old wrecked jeans and a sweater, taking lots of really disgusting flu medication, and trying not to hack up a lung.
Hmm, unless they occasionally lick their groins, go into heat and/or hump male dogs then I’m not seeing it. (But maybe they do…)
Ooh I like this meme!
Today, being womanly meant going to work, wearing some motherfucking slacks, working on a presentation I’m giving tomorrow, and eating a catfish po’ boy with french fries.
Seconding Crumbelieveable & Cassandra. It’s not your place as a man to decide the worth of being “womanly”.
I don’t think that “manly” and “womanly” are universals, but rather are what a culture expects of those who ID as man and woman. Some aspects of male and female gender presentation DO seem to be pretty universal. With men, for example, there’s physical aggression, bonding over sports (whatever the sport of the culture may be), an aversion to exchanging physical affection (like a hug) with strange men to name a few. I don’t have a problem with having these ideals as long as people don’t try to apply them as universals, and as long as these ideals are conceived by the people to whom it will apply i.e. (as far as the binary goes) men have no business deciding what’s womanly, and women have no business deciding what’s manly. I don’t know enough to make definitive statements about non-binary people, but I would think that the same rule would apply i.e. it is up to a group to decide what their ideal presentation is
Hey Manboobzers, thanks to you all I was able to tell my friend not to refer to a transman he knows as “a shim”. I wouldn’t have had the words to do that before reading this site. 🙂
That might just be universal universal. Does anyone like that? :p
I identify as a manly woman so I’m not quite sure if I get to play the “womanly” game. But today I was manly-woman-y by:
-Writing a sociology essay
-Talking to a bunch of my dude friends
-Getting really angry that anatomy lab was canceled after I’d gotten up with only three hours of sleep to attend
-Napping extensively (and somewhat resentfully)
-Eating tofu
-Wearing a sweater and jeans
-Fixing a ripped backpack.
I’m not even sure which of these are stereotypes. “Oh, you know women, always napping resentfully.”
I’m not even sure which of these are stereotypes. “Oh, you know women, always napping resentfully.”
It probably counts if you’re doing it to deny a man sex. 😀
“napping resentfully” sounds like something a cat would do 🙂
I have metaphysical and mystical notions of “masculine” and “feminine” that are different from common notions in our society.
I’m a little afraid to ask, but I will anyway.
@Bagelsan
It’s been my experience that, regardless of culture, women are generally more comfortable with physical affection. Even in more conservative cultures (like South Asian cultures) women are more likely to hug people, or use reassuring touches, than men. I think it’s a result of being socialised to be nurturing, but that’s just my uneducated guess.
@Holly
My mum is also a resentful napper, so y’all may be starting a stereotype together 😛
I guess that’s another way in which I as an evil feminist destroy men then – I actively seek out men who’re physically demonstrative and affectionate, and pretty much won’t have sex with men who aren’t.
@Bagelsan
I just realised that I said strange men, when I meant strangers
CassandraSays – There’s a category of men you won’t have sex with??!?!
That right there is destroying men.
@Cassandra
I’m not sure if you mean in general, or with loved ones. i think men and women are much more similar when it comes to physical affection with loved ones, I’m talking more about outside of that inner circle. It’s because of that similarity that I think it’s a matter of socialisation over biology.
I know! It’s so evil of women, having preferences. That should probably be included in some sort of MRA manifesto – “women are strictly forbidden to refuse to have sex with men simply because they don’t find them appealing, because what if he’s a really Nice Guy?”.
It’s true!!! This is why I die a thousand deaths every day!
@ Shadow
I mean that I actively seek out men who’re very huggy in general. Obviously everyone is more huggy with people in their inner circle than with strangers, but the men I tend to go for are the ones who’d be described as unusually huggy or touchy-feely by anyone who knew them.
@Cassandra
Lol, fair enough. It’s funny because I find that kind of openness very endearing in people, right up until they turn it on me.
Whereas I’m super huggy so if I attempted to date someone who wasn’t it wouldn’t end well. I’d annoy them by wanting hugs more than they were comfortable with, and they’d annoy me by not being as affectionate as I’d want. It’s a recipe for an unhappy relationship.
Also, again – flu medication, I’m on lots of it, so apologies if I’m not making much sense this evening.
I love being a woman. As far as I’m concerned, that’s what “womanly” is, so I guess I love being womanly.
I also happen to be a very femme woman, because that’s who I am, and I love that too. There’s a lot of bullshit that surrounds that. The idea that how I dress/act/speak is how women are supposed to dress/act/speak, and that other women who dress/act/speak in a different way are somehow doing it wrong. The idea that, because of the way I dress/act/speak, I can’t be as capable or as smart or as serious as someone else. But the bullshit is what society has arbitrarily thrown onto the concept of femme women and women in general. It doesn’t tell me or anyone else how valuable we are, and fuck anyone who thinks it does.
Me too. 🙂
Today, being womanly meant lying around in flannel pajamas with a mustard stain on them, proofreading some files, doing my physical therapy, making pasta, and playing far too much Skyrim.