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actual activism antifeminism drama grandiosity hypocrisy misogyny MRA MRA paradox oppressed men reddit terrorism

Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)

Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”

When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.

Consider this post:

Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.

Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:

Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:

Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.

Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.

Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.

The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.

And then there’s this post:

I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!

Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?

EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:

Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:

[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.

Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.

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Molly Ren
9 years ago

It’s not about that. It’s about me needing to “intellectually refute” MRA accusations OCD throes at me. It’s about staving off a monster in my head.

Yo, dogg, I think if you have a monster in your head, posting on a website devoted to mockery isn’t gonna do shit for you. GET THERAPY. LIKE, REAL THERAPY.

Futrelle, do me and everyone at Manboobz a favor and just ban me (both here and in the forums). Things will be a lot better that way for all of us.

Realizing you could actually just stop typing might also help.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I don’t want people to just “be understanding” and just accept my offensive stuff. My offensive stuff is never intentional. It’s only when it is called out on that I realize that it is offensive and apologize for it.

Bullshit. You repeat stuff you’ve already been called out for.

Those locked threads are mental turds. Ignore them.

No.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Boggi, see a therapist.

Don’t post here asking to not be corrected, and you know what? Don’t post here asking to be corrected, either. That’s also not our job. And more than not our job, it’s not going to help.

If you want to work out your issues online, do it on an OCD forum, not a feminist forum. Posting here, even when you’re trying to argue pro-feminist, just legitimizes those thoughts. Your thoughts are not really about women and feminism. They’re about your OCD, so deal with that, not with feminism.

katz
9 years ago

Those locked threads are mental turds. Ignore them.

No, see, the locked threads actually exist, and people actually read them after you posted them, and maybe even replied before they were locked. If you hurt someone’s feelings, they aren’t going to get un-hurt by ignoring the thread now.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

(Also, and I’m confident this has nothing to do with OCD: cut out the superiority complex. There’s like five billion religious people in the world and you’re not smarter and better than all of them. You’re also not smarter than everyone who consumes products or everyone with a view of gender different than yours. Just go with the assumption that you don’t know everything at this stage in your life, and that most other people are intelligent humans who have thought through their beliefs? For serious.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

By the way, Boggi, I really do feel for you. I know you’re struggling with intrusive thoughts, and that has to be really, really shitty. It’s just that — as several people have said already — you can’t use this community as a tool to help you with that struggle. We’re people, not CBT worksheets. When you say hurtful things to us, they hurt, even if you’re just trying to work stuff out for yourself.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Re. us not being CBT worksheets: yeah, feel free to type out anything you want, but then DON’T POST IT. Paste it into a document called “things to tell my therapist about” and then print it and tell a therapist about it. ‘K?

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

@B- For the record, I never though you were trolling, and I think you ask some good questions. It’s just that you seem to not be interested in listening- whether to agree or disagree. I’d also recommend that you seek therapy.

And yeah, the superiority complex is very off-putting. There are legitimate reasons- both individually and sociologically- that humans are inclined to religious belief. And I can say that as an atheist, I really have no desire to associate with the atheist community. So many of them are smug self-satisfied pricks. Don’t be one of those guys.

darksidecat
9 years ago

Personally, I’m of the opinion that patriarchy hurts the vast majority of both genders.

Then defend that opinion, rather than pretending that those who are arguing against you must be disingenuous. Patriarchy benefits men and harms women. All men benefit from at least some aspects of male privilege, and all women suffer from at least some of the harms of oppression of women. Claiming that individual men don’t benefit, and individual women don’t suffer, is a denial of systems of privilege and oppression.

And the further individual men deviate from the pre-approved masculine ideal, the more they’re marginalized.

Femme men still benefit in some ways from male privilege, even if it’s not to the same extent as their butch male counterparts. Also, the fucking reason they are punished is due to the association with women.

Since not many men are Don Draper… well.

Men who are not “Don Drapers” still fucking benefit from male privilege.

There are a thousand and one ways women- on an individual basis- could rationally participate in the patriarchy, and benefit from doing so.

No, there aren’t. Women can sacrifice some of their interests in hopes of short term gains, they can give in to avoid a fight, they can give in because of internalized oppression…but they can’t actually benefit from the existence of the fucking patriarchy, that’s pretty much definitional.

Frankly, I’m really not interested in spending an inordinate amount of time debating this with an asshole who came in swearing and waving zir hands,

“Asshole who came in swearing” Way to be a hypocrite. Also, I swear all the fucking time. Go fuck yourself if you don’t like it. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

…also because I don’t think what I’m saying is very controversial.

Someone’s disputing you, it’s not uncontroversial. Also, issues of class feminism, male privilege, oppression dynamics, etc. aren’t controversial? What fucking world have you been living in? (Other than a first grade classroom where we gasp and cover our ears upon hearing the word “fuck”).

boomboom
boomboom
9 years ago

It sure is different here on manboobz than it is on you tube. It’s much more refreshing. I totally know where boggi is coming from, people have misunderstood what he has said.
and it warms my heart. Yes, I sound utterly bizarre but… it’s a very harsh environment over there, and very anti feminist, and the most popular feminists there are really too close to anti feminist for my comfort level. That’s where boggi comes from. He comes from a place where if you DON’T make a comment calling god a fantasy you might get jumped on. It’s a place where people can openly say there’s no patriarchy and they’re not considered the tin foil hat wearers.

It’s where if you make a feminist video, you must spend the entire time apologizing and reassuring men, and it helps to wear lots of make up and make sure to say something SExxy Pos! It’s a place where if you pick someone out to hate, you can wear that like a really expensive tshirt or bag and people will think you’re really cool and stuff. Make sure to drop the name in the video and posture yourself. To suggest that a man in an elevator at four am that knows you are tired and then asks you to go somewhere alone with him is being sexist is an outrage and effrontery to all men everywhere, and you should be probably registered on some website of radicals, Let’s not get too carried away now.

It’s violent, abusive and it’s an MRA haven. I’ve seen almost every one effected by that ‘what about the menz’ thinking and ‘you had better be balanced’ attitude. And ‘balanced’ means please deny there are any problems, please make SURE to mention that women do it too!

This is where boggi came from, that’s where the worm lives.
I was enjoying him getting spanked a bit, because I don’t know exactly who it is, but I’m pretty sure it’s someone that’s been a complete tool to anyone with feminist balls on that site.
BUT … I feel bad. I think that he’s been misunderstood here in this comment thread.

I can tell you for one, when he meant women are complicit, he meant people like Meagan Kelley and Sara Palin. That much I know. He means the girlwritescrap types. I knew it before I saw him drop a name to clarify. I mean I don’t know exactly who this is like I said, and I’m sure that at the behest of “feminists” on you tube that he admires that have been HUGE supporters of Johntheother (probably not anymore, but he hasn’t changed AT ALL, so yeah…)… he has treated me and other more to the point feminists like utter shit. But still…
seems like he’s getting the shit end of the stick here, and it might help to know what rocks he’s crawled out from under. YT is shit.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

YouTube isn’t a country. I’m not buying this “he’s from a different culture” stuff because someone goes to a different website.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Then defend that opinion, rather than pretending that those who are arguing against you must be disingenuous.

Do I really need to defend that, DSC? Is it opinion that powerful old men (supported by the patriarchy) have send thousands of young men to die in wars? Is it opinion that violent masculinity (supported by the patriarchy) has resulted in widespread violence against and harm to men? Is it opinion the masculine ideal (supported by the patriarchy) has emotionally stunted countless men, torn apart families and destroyed lives? PHMT is not an opinion, it is a fact, and I don’t need to defend it, though I just did.

So we’ve established that, in absolute terms, the patriarchy is bad for almost everyone. Relatively speaking, sure, men are privileged above women- just as masculine men are privileged over non-masculine men and feminine women over non-feminine women. But in the end, only a very few people- that is, the men at the top- are winners.

The privilege afforded to those that meet the masculine or feminine ideal is something that is very real and very much a part of patriarchy. Feminine women can use their privilege (granted by the patriarchy) to contribute to the oppression of other women. In some cases they can also use their privileged position to contribute to the marginalization of non-masculine men. To deny this is to deny reality, and both of these actions directly support patriarchal power structures.

boomboom
boomboom
9 years ago

Oh it has to be a “country”? You don’t have to buy anything, because I’m not selling anything. Nothing I said was untrue. Go ahead and state your case, but I don’t agree with all the posters here every time they argue with Boggie. You’re not always right.

Sorry for my long post before, it’s a trip to see how different the two environments are. It’s weird to know that acceptable feminists over there took forever and a day to not like Johntheother. That’s weird. The guy has not changed one bit. Those are the people that boggi likes. You think I like people like that? Nope. You can have at him, but I’m not selling you anything, and you sound a bit superior, which is fine, but I thought you didn’t like that?

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I’m sorry for not understanding that hating women and being a really crappy feminist is the traditional Youtubian way and that Youtubians have difficulty acclimating to Manboobzian culture where we hate women somewhat less. It was very culturally insensitive of me.

(I also am not sure what you’re talking about because there’s plenty of feminists on YouTube who actually don’t pander to male viewers in any particular way? I mean, yeah, they get shitty misogynistic comments, but on YouTube, videos of lizards get shitty misogynistic comments, that hardly means anything. I think by “YouTube” you’re describing a particular really small circle of channels within YouTube.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

I’m honestly… not sure what point you’re trying to make, boomboom? Do you feel the reaction to what Boggi has been saying was inappropriate? What do you think should have happened?

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

@DSC: whether or not the responsibility is of an (actively) enabler depending of their belonging to the oppressed or oppressive group is similar seems pointless to me, so I won’t argue about it.

But do you agree this responsibility is nonetheless very real? i can’t say for sure reading your last comments.
I have a few comparisons and examples that come to mind:
– The recent forum thread about Michelle Duggar. It is obviously a system that discriminate against women, it’s painfully obvious. And she has probably been brainwashed from childhood to accept it, but nonetheless she is forcing (literally, as are proof the camps that you mentioned) her daughters down the same path, she is raising her sons to be oppressive and enjoy their privileges. As a result she receive she validation of her community.
– Since you made a comparison with queer kids, what do you think about GOProud? Here is a group of gay men that support (supported? my news aren’t that fresh) homophobic presidential candidates and defend a party that tries to stop right equality for lgbt. By doing so, they decrease the…. what would be the opposite of privilege? Well they get treated better by homophobs and ensure they don’t lose their class privilege.

Or for a crappy metaphor, let’s say all women are in the middle of the sea: stepping on other women’s head to delay drowning is not acceptable, no matter how terrible the drowning is.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Yeah, boomboom, I’m not getting where you’re coming from either.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Boomboom, I’m sorry, I was a bit snotty there, but I don’t believe:

A) That YouTube has a monolithic culture of weaksauce feminism

or

B) That Boggi being “from” YouTube should change how we react to him

boomboom
boomboom
9 years ago

@Visc… everyone had their own arguments for boggidwurms. Some are better than others from my POV. That is what I’m saying. I would not give some directive about the “group” when I hope there is not a group think in this case, but individuals reacting on their own.

Also, what I said was what I wanted to say. Meaning, there is no hidden point.
Every site has cultural norms. 4chan has their norms, the joe rogan site I belong to I think as like the only posting female has a certain environment. (JFC btw). Now I know that we’re not talking about what dinner fork to use… we’re talking about attitudes and ideas. I just read through the thread, the arguments directed at boggi, and there were some hits and some misses my from my standpoint. I don’t think everything argued against him was correct. I felt conflicted to say something for the reasons I mentioned.

I’ll be back tomorrow. Or about eight hours from now.

katz
9 years ago

The thing is that Boggi doesn’t learn from his mistakes. While it annoys the hell out of me, I know that lots of feminist spaces are also atheist spaces, and so I’d understand someone coming here and making a dismissive comment about religion, and I’d say “I don’t appreciate those sorts of comments” and they’d say “Sorry, I won’t say that kind of thing again” and everything would be fine. But Boggi does it over and over again.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

@boomboom, after reading that, I still have no idea what you’re on about. Are you just trying to say that different sites on the internet have different communities and cultures? What’s the relevance to this thread, to Boggi, to the rest of us? You’re being incredibly mealy-mouthed about this. Unless you can actually outline your position, I can’t take a stance on it, so I’m just not going to worry about what you have to say.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@Shadow: Re: NWO’s TEXAS bus campaign.

It probably was over the line–and was taken down in 2008 and was only in Dallas not all of Texas (of course most of Texas has no public transit).

Here is a link about it: http://glennsacks.com/dart/

NWO never gives sources; always over-reads or reads inaccurately.

You can never trust him to report anything accurately.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Joanna, I have no idea what the fuck’s up with AZ, but it looks like they want to give Florida a run for it’s money in the Craziest State Sweepstakes.

That law being proposed breaks so many privacy and discrimination statutes it’s not even funny.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@Holly and Hellkell: Arizona makes me glad I ended up in Texas (which is bad enough and is trying to copy AZ). *shudders*

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Look, I reread my exchange with DSC. I stand by what I said, but for the record, it’s not my intent to engage in denialism. Male privilege is a very real phenomenon- of course it is. I only think that, in a patriarchal society, there’s a bit more to it than that. Men are privileged over women, and both men and women are privileged on the basis of performance to a narrow standard. That’s my interpretation of patriarchy as an axis of oppression, though of course I am willing to engage with others operating in good faith. The thing is, if you’re going to come in swearing and screaming, I’m going to react a little defensively, as I did here.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

it looks like they want to give Florida a run for it’s money in the Craziest State Sweepstakes.

We won that in 2010 with SB1070 and it has been all downhill since. I will check to see if it is likely to pass COW (which it probably is because well…this IS Arizona.)

Pecunium
9 years ago

Shadow: In the middle east (and in parts of Asia) men touch a lot more. One of my friends and I teased another friend of ours when we got back from Iraq by walking to the PX holding hands.

It’s not that men don’t touch (at least in the Army) but the ways in which we accept social touching are different.

I belong to a couple of fairly touch-full subcultures. So people who aren’t well known to me are likely to offer hugs. It’s an interesting set of protocols, watching how people ask/accept/deny them.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

AVT, thanks for laying down the rules. Wouldn’t know what to do without you. Funny, we’ve never heard the “not all men are privileged” argument before. Nope, not at all. Excuse if we don’t all fall out over your never before heard brilliance.

PFKAE, please tell Debbie whatsherface who authored the bill that she should be ashamed of herself.

magdelyn
9 years ago

AVT, you lost me at male-privilege and patriarchy.

magdelyn
9 years ago

darksidecat needs to learn how to express their opinion without attacking people … i mean it’s really embarrassing – I mean for them.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@Mags: kyriarchy! White privilege! Cis-privilege! Unconscious racism! Aversive sexism!

Will that lose you enough that you cannot come back, or do you have your pockets stuffed with breadcrumbs to strew so you can find your way back! And why do you want to keep coming back anyway?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

PFKAE, please tell Debbie whatsherface who authored the bill that she should be ashamed of herself.

I think she has heard and I think she has ignored.

ithiliana
9 years ago

AVT: You are woefully ignorant of the history and complexities of feminist theories, and the critiques of feminist theories by womanists and feminists of color, as well as of many of the working definitions developed by those who with to criticize the kyriarchy. Your assumption that the issue is how much individual blame can be attached to a man, and the insistence that some women benefit just as much or more than men, is a derail, and is language that is usually found in trolls who want to pretend to engage in actual discussion but who have no intention in engaging in good faith, and you are in fact engaging in denialism throughout, not to mention victim blaming. So why not take a flying fuck off and stop trying to pretend your rhetoric deserves anything except mockery (purpose of the site after all).

It is also possible to be misogynistic and nasty without using a single cuss word: and your posts have shown that. Lack of swearing does not mean anything except choosing not to swear: it’s not a guarantee of good faith, intelligence, morality, values, or any fucking thing else.

In other words, I agree totally with DSC that you’re fucking clueless about what you’re saying, and not worth the time to engage with in any discussions of the bloody fucking patriarchy. Get a grip, or a clue, do some more reading, and stop trying to pretend women in any group or on any axis are as ‘privileged’ as the equivalent group of men.

@Mags: Oh, I don’t DSC has done anything to be embarrassed about. You on the other hand regularly set off my embarrassment squick with your public performances.

kiki
kiki
9 years ago

So how can paying for womens contraception, plus paying for [abortions] and pregnancy be cheaper than only paying for [abortions] and pregnancy?

I think Owly should be forced to have this as his signature, so that any new posters who aren’t familiar with him will immediately be able to see how jaw-droppingly fucking stupid he is.

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

So if Boggi is from an Internet community of shithead feminists, he should… find a different community and stop being a shithead? That is not difficult. MOST people manage to avoid reading the YouTube comments, you know.

Cloudiah
Cloudiah
9 years ago

MOST people manage to avoid reading the YouTube comments, you know.

O, that way madness lies. Even on kitten videos, sometimes. It’s incredible.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I actually have a browser plugin to protect me from YouTube comments. (YouTube Options for Chrome.)

magdelyn
9 years ago

“…Your assumption that the issue is how much individual blame can be attached to a man…”

Bingo! We have have a winner.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I also have a personal policy of never watching “opinionated rant” YouTube videos. Even when I agree with the person it’s an awkward feeling, getting ranted at via webcam; when they’re saying something aggressively offensive to me it’s unbearable.

katz
9 years ago

I find that most of the time, on noncontroversial videos of something I like, the top comments are OK. Like if it’s a music video, the top comments will probably be “They’re the best band ever” or something like that.

Below that, there lies madness.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

A big non-thanks to ithiliana for reading a whole lot of imaginary shit into my words.

By the way, though it’s irrelevant, I can assure you I am quite aware of the “complexities of feminist theories”. That doesn’t mean I’m under any obligation to accept it all as gospel, and I don’t. So fuck you and your monumental arrogance.

magdelyn
9 years ago

AVT, don’t take it personally. It’s just business.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

OH, NOES, AVT SAID “FUCK!”

To the fainting couches for some pearl-clutching!

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

I always zone out during videos: I’m incapable of concentrating on a person talking at me. What can I say, I’m a creature of text.

…It seems to have saved me from a lot of bullshit.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@AVT: , I can assure you I am quite aware of the “complexities of feminist theories”.

OK, then, same question I ask all the trolls who claim to be familiar with feminist theories/authors: name five.

Because what you said sure doesn’t prove it.

And no more than two can be current feminist posting in blogs: bonus points if one is 19th century, and two are womanists/feminists of color.

You don’t have to accept them or agree with them, but PROVE YOU HAVE READ THEM.

(And if three are Dworkin, McKinnon, and Solanis, you are typical troll being typical).

magdelyn
9 years ago

Hmmm…How about the wicked witch of the west? No, no. I model my life too much after her to be a feminist.

magdelyn
9 years ago

How about transphobist and man hater Mary Daly?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

You burn when someone throws water on you Mags?

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