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actual activism antifeminism drama grandiosity hypocrisy misogyny MRA MRA paradox oppressed men reddit terrorism

Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)

Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”

When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.

Consider this post:

Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.

Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:

Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:

Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.

Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.

Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.

The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.

And then there’s this post:

I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!

Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?

EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:

Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:

[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.

Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.

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KristinMH
9 years ago

My womanly day only started about two hours ago, because I was up until 4 in the womanly morning with the baby. Other than that it resembles Skyal’s day. Only without the older children.

katz
9 years ago

My womanly day has all been database engineering so far. There may be a turkey sandwich in the future.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

I’m no Islamaphobe by any stretch, but the culture of women there is the only time I wonder if something is wrong with men genes. Is there any place that popped up, any society where they just got it right? No, it’s the human condition. Humans suck.

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

I wonder if we’ll ever “get off the ground” as a species, since so many people (both men and women) don’t question anything, including all of these ideas about gender. No. They just accept all of these attitudes and say it is either from “God” or “Nature”. Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

My womanly day involved some not nice things. Some nice things and a bottle of Diet Wild Cherry Pepsi.

katz
9 years ago

Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

Boggi, how many times do people need to tell you to go fuck yourself?

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

WTF?

So, is that true for other kind of oppression, or just one? Why not say that slaves are also to blame for accepting their state?

I don’t mean no woman is sexist, or that no woman participate in maintaining patriarchy. And maybe it’s just a formulation issue, but frankly, “victims of oppression are to blame for complicity accepting that oppression” doesn’t sound anything like “people are to blame when they contribute to the oppression” to me.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

Fuck off.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Glad I’m offensive to everyone!

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

And I’m pretty sure nature is very real and I’m very sure many people (biologists and the such) would disagree it silences questioning.
Actually, theologists would probably also disagree that the idea of god silences questioning.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Why Boggi, was it your goal?

katz
9 years ago

Boggi, are you seriously trolling us?

Do you really think this will end well?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

I’m glad you’re glad, Boggi. Was this your intent from the beginning? It’s not like you haven’t said problematic things before.

Need to know
9 years ago

Boggi- I wish, in my womanly way, you would stop and think before you type something so offensive.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

I mean, this is not a complicated concept. Really.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

@katz

When my “God” and “Nature” comment I didn’t mean to some asshole atheist (even though I am one).

What I meant was to show how people use such ideas as authorities to dictate how something “must be” or “essentially is” so and so.

Men and women are like this and/or must be like this because God said so!

Men and women are like this blah blah blah because Nature! SCIENCE! (Yes, atheists too use this bullshit reasoning to “justify” their sexism. Do you think I’m not aware of that?)

And so forth and so forth.

@hellkell

My whole “women allowed themselves to be oppressed” was bad. I now realize how that was fallacious.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is what I really meant to say. Men aren’t the only ones to, as you put it, support the patriarchy. Women who do that are also contributing to oppression.

Like one of our good friends cristy0misty, a woman “turned out well”.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I wonder if we’ll ever “get off the ground” as a species, since so many people (both men and women) don’t question anything, including all of these ideas about gender. No. They just accept all of these attitudes and say it is either from “God” or “Nature”. Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

Well, I’m glad you’re smarter than like 98% of the human race. How did you get that way? Figure it was luck?

In this one thread, you’ve:
1) Used “bitch” as an insult
2) Said that being womanly is bad
3) Said you have some sort of bizarre spiritual theory of gender
4) Said that trans/androgynous people are magical snowflakes who transcend gender for your personal enlightenment
5) Said women let themselves be oppressed (you did back down on that one, thanks)
6) Acted like now you’re the mega-enlightened one here?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

My whole “women allowed themselves to be oppressed” was bad. I now realize how that was fallacious.

Oh really? What made you see the light? You sound just like MRAL backpedaling there.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

In this one thread, you’ve:
1) Used “bitch” as an insult
2) Said that being womanly is bad
3) Said you have some sort of bizarre spiritual theory of gender
4) Said that trans/androgynous people are magical snowflakes who transcend gender for your personal enlightenment
5) Said women let themselves be oppressed (you did back down on that one, thanks)
6) Acted like now you’re the mega-enlightened one here?

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

darksidecat
9 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

What the fuck? Are you fucking serious? Internalized oppression isn’t the same fucking thing as the privileged oppressing the oppressed. If we beat you down so far you hate yourself too, the hatred is your fault?

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is also crap. First, the fact that we all take part in oppressive systems does not take away the individual responsibility for oppression. While I leave open for the moment the question of individual responsibility for privileged status per se, the day to day acts of oppression the privileged engage in should not fucking be considered absolved. Secondly, equivocating internalized oppression with the oppression? That’s total and absolute fucking bullshit. You think a queer kid sitting in their room hating themselves is as bad as the hetero kids that beat them while shouting out slurs? That they are “enforcing” homophobia in ways that are in any way, shape, or form comparable?

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

Well, that depends whether you realize it.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

*gets popcorn*

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Oh really? What made you see the light? You sound just like MRAL backpedaling there.

I explained myself already! In response to your other quote:

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is what I really meant to say. Men aren’t the only ones to, as you put it, support the patriarchy. Women who do that are also contributing to oppression.

Like one of our good friends cristy0misty, a woman “turned out well”.

katz
9 years ago

What I meant was to show how people use such ideas as authorities to dictate how something “must be” or “essentially is” so and so.

Bullshit. You said God is a human fantasy, and that’s exactly what you meant. Now you’re just trying to handwave it because people are calling you out, like Rush Limbaugh. You do this exact same thing every time:

1. Say some deliberately offensive thing.

2. Double down and defend it.

3. Backtrack and pretend that wasn’t what you really meant.

4. Apologize, say that you were totally wrong and realize that now, and try to change the subject.

We are very patient here, but if you keep acting like MRAL, you’re going to get treated like him.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Well, that depends whether you realize it.

Perhaps I’ve just internalized a lot of sexism, and I’m fighting to destroy it. At least I never lie about what I really feel.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

@DSC- It’s not crap. You’re right, obviously men can choose to engage in an oppressive manner, and many do. But I was speaking toward individual responsibility for the system as a whole.

Secondly, women’s participation in the patriarchy need not involve internal self-loathing; actually, that’s a non-sequitur because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. And I think you know that.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

@katz

I’m not trying to “backpedal” or anything. There was a deliberate misunderstanding, and I communicated my ideas very poorly. When I said “God is a fantasy” I didn’t mean “There is no God and religious people are stupid.”

I mean that concepts people use to justify sexism like “God” and “Nature” are constructs and ideals people make up, and that gives them bias and prevents them from seeing things objectively.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

“a deliberate misunderstanding”
???

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

Are you really that clueless?

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

When I speak of “God” I don’t mean the deity of the Christian faith. I mean an ideal like a mandate on what men and women “ought” and “ought not” to be, and what is “natural” and “unnatural”.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

Are you really that clueless?

No, just closeted.

The last few months of my life have been utter shit. Don’t make it worse. I really, really don’t want to be sexist. Why else would I even come here! How can you doubt my very pro-feminist opinions from my posts and threads o the forum (the ones that haven’t been locked that is).

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

When I speak of “God” I don’t mean the deity of the Christian faith. I mean an ideal like a mandate on what men and women “ought” and “ought not” to be, and what is “natural” and “unnatural”.

Thanks, Humpty Dumpty.

Now guess what I mean by “supercilious asshole who needs to at least drop the superior-to-the-sheeple complex if he’s going to make all these ‘mistakes’ like accidentally blaming women for sexism.”

Don’t worry, if you’re offended by it I’ll tell you it meant something else!

katz
9 years ago

When I said “God is a fantasy” I didn’t mean “There is no God and religious people are stupid.”

You’ve outright said that people who believe in God are stupid! It was only a few weeks ago! (Could anyone be a dear and dig that up for me? I suck at archive binges.)

Perhaps I’ve just internalized a lot of sexism, and I’m fighting to destroy it.

No, you’ve internalized a douchebag sense of superiority, and changing its target won’t make you a better person.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Excuse me? Don’t use us to work your shit out. That’s unfair, and quite frankly a chauvinist thing to do.

I can doubt your oh-so-feminist opinions by the the not-so-feminist things you’ve said. Some of them in this very thread.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

But Boggi, the locked thread are still real, and the fact you post here is certainly no reason for people to let slide what you say. You’re not a special snowflake in that, many other commenters have been attacked for what they said. Self declared MRAs, self declared feminists and everybody else is responsible for what they say.

And you really can’t say stuff so obviously offensive (it’s no like it’s the first time the subject comes up), say that you’re GLAD you’re offensive then refuse all responsibility because your life is though.
I thought the comparison to MRAL was exaggerated but now, I’m starting to wonder.

darksidecat
9 years ago

@DSC- It’s not crap. You’re right, obviously men can choose to engage in an oppressive manner, and many do. But I was speaking toward individual responsibility for the system as a whole.

Oppressive systems don’t just pop by magic out of thin air. People create them and perpetuate them. And people are responsible for them. You can’t just pretend you don’t have responsibility for using, supporting, and allowing to continue systems of oppression.

Secondly, women’s participation in the patriarchy need not involve internal self-loathing; actually, that’s a non-sequitur because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

Internalized oppression has nothing to do with self loathing? A woman supporting the oppression of women has nothing to do with internalized self loathing or self hate of women? Your argument is patently absurd. A woman participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that does her harm. Whereas a man participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that benefits him. Pretending that those are equivalent states is ridiculous on its face.

And I think you know that.

I know no such thing. Also, your baldfaced assertion that I am not arguing in good faith is incredibly fucking dismissive without actually addressing my points. So fuck you.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

Thanks, Humpty Dumpty.

Now guess what I mean by “supercilious asshole who needs to at least drop the superior-to-the-sheeple complex if he’s going to make all these ‘mistakes’ like accidentally blaming women for sexism.”

Don’t worry, if you’re offended by it I’ll tell you it meant something else!

I’m not being “humpty dumpty”. I accidentally said things the wrong way, and didn’t communicate the message as I should have. I’m not trying to cover my tracks. Merely explain myself.

You’ve outright said that people who believe in God are stupid! It was only a few weeks ago! (Could anyone be a dear and dig that up for me? I suck at archive binges.)

I said that in a moment of spite specifically to piss off an MRA, probably Ideologue Review or some other idiot.

No, you’ve internalized a douchebag sense of superiority, and changing its target won’t make you a better person.

What superiority? The problem is my internalized sexism.

Excuse me? Don’t use us to work your shit out. That’s unfair, and quite frankly a chauvinist thing to do.

I suffered a lot of anxiety depression before I discovered this site, and that suffering was caused my MRAs. What else was I to do! It was so horrible I wished I was dead almost every day.

But thankfully it’s almost gone…

I can doubt your oh-so-feminist opinions by the the not-so-feminist things you’ve said. Some of them in this very thread.

I’m obviously in conflict. Now stop picking on me. Pick on AntZ or someone else. At least they are unapologetic, fully bigoted assholes who will never reveal the error of their ways.

At least I apologize and try to explain/correct myself.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

The last few months of my life have been utter shit. Don’t make it worse.

If you’re going to spew insulting garbage and expect people to be all quiet and understanding and not question or criticize it, you’re the one making things worse.

I really, really don’t want to be sexist. Why else would I even come here!

To work out your issues at our expense? Would be the first time someone’s tried it.

How can you doubt my very pro-feminist opinions from my posts and threads o the forum (the ones that haven’t been locked that is).

You mean your “Doesn’t this incredibly sexist person have some interesting points?” routine? That’s a bug part of what’s causing me to doubt your “pro-feminist” stance, actually.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I suffered a lot of anxiety depression before I discovered this site, and that suffering was caused my MRAs. What else was I to do! It was so horrible I wished I was dead almost every day.

What else can you do? Go see a therapist.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

So now we’ve got:
1) I’m not backtracking, I’m explaining myself
2) I said that in a moment of anger
3) I have a lot of personal problems, and this means that you shouldn’t object when I say offensive things
4) Can’t we just forget those times I was sexist? They were whole entire minutes ago. Forgive and forget, people!
5) If you don’t teach me to not hate women, who will?

I’m not saying Boggi is MRAL, obviously he’s not, but I’m suddenly reminded.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

If you’re going to spew insulting garbage and expect people to be all quiet and understanding and not question or criticize it, you’re the one making things worse.

I don’t want people to just “be understanding” and just accept my offensive stuff. My offensive stuff is never intentional. It’s only when it is called out on that I realize that it is offensive and apologize for it.

You mean your “Doesn’t this incredibly sexist person have some interesting points?” routine? That’s a bug part of what’s causing me to doubt your “pro-feminist” stance, actually.

Those locked threads are mental turds. Ignore them.

I’ll think I’ll just leave for now. I have a lot of other things to do and I spend too much time here anyway. I’m obviously just making people angry.

Bye.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

I’m obviously in conflict. Now stop picking on me. Pick on AntZ or someone else. At least they are unapologetic, fully bigoted assholes who will never reveal the error of their ways.

At least I apologize and try to explain/correct myself.

You don’t get it, do you. You don’t get to say offensive stuff then tell people not to be offended, just because your life is though.

And you don’t get to tell us what to care about. But don’t pretend you receive the same treatment as MRA: http://manboobz.com/2011/09/08/man-boobz-video-7-split-the-country-in-half-men-on-one-side-women-on-the-other/
As long as you don’t have post devoted to mocking you, you’re really not treated like them.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

My offensive stuff is never intentional.

So? It’s really not enough. Goodbye.

katz
9 years ago

So Boggi, by your estimation, how many times do you get to say that people who believe in God are all stupid and deluded before it counts?

It’s kind of tempting to needle you by saying “Atheists are a bunch of assholes…oh wait I said that in a moment of anger and didn’t mean it” or something like that every time you show up, except that I don’t think offending half (or more) of the people here is acceptable collateral damage.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

My womanly day only started about two hours ago, because I was up until 4 in the womanly morning with the baby.

Belatedly: CONGRATS! Last time I was on ManBoobs you were still preggers, so good job moving things along. 😀

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

1) I’m not backtracking, I’m explaining myself

Which is true, and not just an excuse.

2) I said that in a moment of anger

Which is also true, and not just an excuse.

3) I have a lot of personal problems, and this means that you shouldn’t object when I say offensive things

That’s not I mean at all! You can object to me all you want! Each time I say an offensive thing I apologize for it!

4) Can’t we just forget those times I was sexist? They were whole entire minutes ago. Forgive and forget, people!

That’s not what I want at all.

5) If you don’t teach me to not hate women, who will?

It’s not about that. It’s about me needing to “intellectually refute” MRA accusations OCD throes at me. It’s about staving off a monster in my head.

Futrelle, do me and everyone at Manboobz a favor and just ban me (both here and in the forums). Things will be a lot better that way for all of us.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

I suffered a lot of anxiety depression before I discovered this site, and that suffering was caused my MRAs. What else was I to do! It was so horrible I wished I was dead almost every day.

I’m obviously in conflict. Now stop picking on me. Pick on AntZ or someone else. At least they are unapologetic, fully bigoted assholes who will never reveal the error of their ways.

At least I apologize and try to explain/correct myself.

It’s not the end of the world. :p Take the afternoon off and come back on a different thread tomorrow, one day older and wiser, and I promise people won’t “pick on” you for yesterday’s news.

AVT
AVT
9 years ago

@DSC- Sigh. All I meant was that individual men are not intrinsically responsible for larger systems of oppression. That’s it.

A woman participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that does her harm. Whereas a man participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that benefits him.

Really? This is a gross oversimplification. Personally, I’m of the opinion that patriarchy hurts the vast majority of both genders. As a group, men are privileged over women- of course- but only in relative terms. And the further individual men deviate from the pre-approved masculine ideal, the more they’re marginalized. Since not many men are Don Draper… well.

There are a thousand and one ways women- on an individual basis- could rationally participate in the patriarchy, and benefit from doing so. Frankly, I’m really not interested in spending an inordinate amount of time debating this with an asshole who came in swearing and waving zir hands, and also because I don’t think what I’m saying is very controversial. If anyone else here has an objection, please say so, and I’ll be more willing to engage.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

If you’re depressed/anxious, things seem like bigger deals than they are. Seriously. It’s no big. Just take a breath and come back tomorrow and you’ll be fine.

/womanly job of comforting sad man

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

@Boggi… sigh.

The last few months of my life have been utter shit. Don’t make it worse. I really, really don’t want to be sexist.

I’m sorry you’ve been having a rough time, really. I hope things get better for you. However, that does not mean people aren’t allowed to call you out on stuff. That’s not fair.

You don’t want to be sexist? Great. I don’t want you to be sexist either. That’s on you, though. You can’t blame the uncomfortable feelings you have about the possibility that you have some sexist thoughts on the people who notice you being sexist. If you said the same things and nobody called you on it, they would still be sexist things. If you want to make those uncomfortable feelings go away, asking people to shut up about it so you don’t have to question yourself isn’t the way to go. You should be grateful for the opportunity to question yourself. Work through your discomfort and learn something.

Understand, too; most people are sexist. Most people aren’t MRAs. If you’re saying some problematic things, that doesn’t make you Paul Elam. It just makes you… average. Better, maybe, because you care enough to want to not be that way.

And hey, so you don’t feel like I’m beating up on you, I have tons of privilege. I had some painfully clueless ideas about race when I was younger, despite considering myself an ally of PoC. I said clueless things to a Black friend of mine in high school, which I feel guilty about to this day. I’m almost definitely still clueless in ways I don’t even think about. But instead of sticking my fingers in my ears going “LA LA LA NOT RACIST NOT RACIST” or getting mad at the people who call me out on stuff, I try to learn as much as I can so that I can be the best ally that I can. By the way, “learning as much as I can” does NOT mean “demanding members of an oppressed group teach me.”

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