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Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)

Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”

When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.

Consider this post:

Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.

Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:

Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:

Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.

Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.

Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.

The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.

And then there’s this post:

I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!

Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?

EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:

Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:

[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.

Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.

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kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

The alternative explanation is that nwo get’s his opinions about women from badly written porn. Which… would explain a lot, actually.

Shaenon
8 years ago

Every time I read NWOslave, I am reminded of this dish I got on ebay.

William Steig! A great cartoonist, not to mention a follower of engagingly batty psychiatrist Wilhem Reich and his theories of orgone energy.

Shaenon
8 years ago

And the creator of Shrek. But he also owned an orgone cabinet!

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
8 years ago

You really ARE stupid Owly. Do you not attempt to do just a LITTLE research outside of AVfM, or is that a too illumaniti for you?

Anything outside of Jesusland is Illuminati brainwashing.

All of this Illuminati smearing is the resentment of bitter old men whose ideals have long passed away.

Wearing heels at a volunteer event = forced to dress as a girl by the university.

BLOW IT ALL UP.

2 + 2 = 5 in MRA land. Logic bitches!

I honestly can’t think of anybody. Not even Hollywood has the imagination that nwo has.

I wouldn’t be that optimistic. NWO has vivid delusions all right, but I wouldn’t call it imagination, because no introspection, questioning, wondering, or creativity is happening.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

Yeah, Boggi, those MRAs are such BITCHES. God, they’ve transgressed the boundaries of male behavior so badly that the only insult good enough for them is woman.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

Several people commented on womens health, both reproductive and otherwise. Falconer even managed to allude to being in a blind rage over how poorly women are treated by the medical field. For every $1.00 spent on mens health $3.00 is spent on womens health. Is a mere 25% spending on mens health still too much in your opinion? In 1900 the average american man lived within 1 year of the average american woman, now it’s 7 years. Is that too much as well?

Sources? But this is a pretty poor argument anyway. People advocating for women’s health are not by default advocating against men’s health. Just because I want women to live longer, healthier lives doesn’t mean I want men to live miserable, unhealthy lives and die young.

Lifting one group up doesn’t necessitate knocking another group down.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@ostara321:

Yes it does so.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The idea that anyone can both be anti-birth control being covered by insurance and want less money spent on women’s healthcare, proportionally speaking, confuses me. Pregnancy and childbirth are really really expensive. If you want to cut costs, making sure that women who don’t want to have babies can avoid doing so is a really easy way to cut costs in terms of healthcare that’s specifically targeted at women.

My sister in law had a very difficult second pregnancy, and was hospitalized for much longer than is typical. When she got out she saw what the cost would have been if her insurance hadn’t picked up most of it. It was over a million dollars. Compared to that kind of money (which again her insurance was responsible for), the cost of BC pills is negligable.

Joanna
8 years ago

Have you folks seen the response to Limbaugh’s redefinition of the word “slut”? It’s hilarious! XD

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Love the video!

Molly Ren
8 years ago

I also noted the paultry $1000.00 a year for womens contracteption being so much cheaper than pregnancy, or the abortion slaughterhouses. Of course it’s really not an either/or now is it? It’s an also paying more for women plan. My taxes for the slaughterhouse and my private funds for the contraception and pregnancy. So how can paying for womens contraception, plus paying for the slaughterhouses and pregnancy be cheaper than only paying for the slaughterhouses and pregnancy? My math seems to be a bit rusty.

Because obviously, women will be taking birth control, getting pregnant, and aborting ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

Cloudiah
Cloudiah
8 years ago

@Shaenon I already had a million reasons for adoring William Steig, but I did not know he owned an orgone cabinet. I believe that makes him even awesomer. 🙂

SaruGoku
SaruGoku
8 years ago

NWO,

Did you actually bother to read the article or did you just accept this hook, line and sinker from your pals at AVfM?

Here’s a link:

http://www.walkamileinhershoes.org/

The incident you were talking about was a march to protest against violence against women, not some kind of abuse and humiliation of men. These men were supporting the women in their lives. yay for them!

You really should go and read the original article before you go running off at the mouth.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

For every $1.00 spent on mens health $3.00 is spent on womens health.

Fine. Then y’all start having the babies and we can reverse that dollar amount! Hurry up. What’s keeping you. You claim the d00dz invented everything and built everything. Get busy!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I repeat from above – one baby, over a million dollars in medical costs if my sister in law hadn’t had really great insurance. This is the majority of the reason why there’s such a disparity in healthcare costs between men and women.

(Women also go to the doctor more when they’re sick. We need to persuade men to do so too, and all this stuff about how men are naturally tougher etc isn’t helping.)

Maya
Maya
8 years ago

For every $1.00 spent on mens health $3.00 is spent on womens health.

Fine. Then y’all start having the babies and we can reverse that dollar amount! Hurry up. What’s keeping you. You claim the d00dz invented everything and built everything. Get busy!

Where are those artificial wombs geniuses!

Molly Ren
8 years ago

Then we’d dress up girls in work clothes and boots, (yukky, it might chaffe your sensitive skin). We’d parade them about and mock the stupid sewer workers.

I like how this is a horrible punishment in NWOslave’s mind. I wear jeans and hiking boots to work EVERY DAY, yo!

Naira
Naira
8 years ago

At least NWO managed to get a believable proportion this time for healthcare spending this time.

One of his last claims ended up with what…10 billion dollars to women’s charities for every one to men’s? I can’t remember the exact ratio, but I did the math. Just looking at the numbers of a small men’s charity in New Jersey would mean that more is spent on women’s charities every year than about 6 times the combined GLOBAL wealth.

Yeah. Fuck that.

katz
8 years ago

Well, however much NWO’s mother spent on neonatal care was obviously wasted.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

They V O L U N T E E R E D NWO

vol·un·teer/ˌvälənˈti(ə)r/
Noun:
A person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task.
Verb:
Freely offer to do something.

English, motherfucker. Do you read it?

Joanna
8 years ago

“Well, however much NWO’s mother spent on neonatal care was obviously wasted.”

NWO was born on a bed of straw to an Amish midwife. There would have been a proper bed, but it cost too much tax money.

Naira
Naira
8 years ago

Shadow wins. Pulp Fiction references always win.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

I still want to know how it works that women are constantly forcing men to rape them, but rape never happens.

NWO, please, enlighten the fuck out of me.

Shaenon
8 years ago

Lifting one group up doesn’t necessitate knocking another group down.

The difference between a civil rights group and a hate group in a nutshell.

Joanna
8 years ago

“Being womanly is humiliating for a man.”

Being womanly is humiliating for NWO, NWO representing all men everywhere of course.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@Shaenon:

Funny thing is, both types of groups tend to target their efforts on disadvantaged or minority groups.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

I’m pretty sure NWO thinks being womanly is humiliating for a woman. Does he really have any thoughts on people unfortunate enough to be women except “BLOW THEM ALL UP”?

(And, of course, “they’re all asking to be raped but none of them actually are.”)

Joanna
8 years ago

“(And, of course, “they’re all asking to be raped but none of them actually are.”)”

I have a problem with this “asking to be raped” thing in that it sort of negates the meaning of rape. Rape means having sex with someone without their consent. So if they “ask you to rape” them, that means there was consent given… the anti logic just… it hurts >.<

Maya
Maya
8 years ago

Then we’d dress up girls in work clothes and boots, (yukky, it might chaffe your sensitive skin). We’d parade them about and mock the stupid sewer workers.

I like how this is a horrible punishment in NWOslave’s mind. I wear jeans and hiking boots to work EVERY DAY, yo!

THE HORROR! THE HORROR! WOMEN WEARING WORK PANTS IS DESTROYING CIVILIZATION! WHEN WILL THE REACTIONARY HYSTERIA COME TO AN END!

*does a lady faint*

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
8 years ago

Owlyslave, darling, love, sweetheart, you do realize that one of the major factors in women’s increased life expectancy is not “we decided to murder all the men” but “childbirth became less dangerous”?

Also, I am 🙁 about something that presents men in heels as inherently hilarious, but it’s certainly not humiliating for a man to be in heels, and rape is actually a thing that happens.

Joanna
8 years ago

Speaking of men in heels, some of the cat walk stuff here is awesome:

http://highheelspassion.blogspot.com/

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
8 years ago

@Maya

I know. These hysterical harpies scream and scream about the destruction of western civilization, but they obviously display such poor intelligence and education I doubt they will ever truly comprehend the gifts their civilization gave them let alone be able to give anything back.

@Holly

When I compare MRAs to women I don’t mean to humiliate women. I mean to humiliate MRAs by using irony. They criticize women with every stereotype and cliche out there from being selfish, shallow, vain, silly, hysterical, irrational, delicate, self-destructive, weak, materialistic, and only being about love and sex etc. etc. to nausea. Yet they themselves have most if not all of these “womanly” weaknesses.

Most MRAs are either hysterical harpies like NWO, selfish bulldogs like AntZ and MRAL who then hide behind a mask of innocence, shallow and materialistic seducers like Roissy, or sophists and demagogues like RockingMrE and ManWomanMyth who feign reason to manipulate people by playing on their prejudices and their resentments and insecurities resulting from the changes in our cultures understanding of gender and of gender roles.

They are some of the thoughtless, cruel, and vicious people in the world yet if you strike back they cry waterfalls of tears. It’s like watching Kent Hovind say “evolutionists” are “willingly ignorant”. The projection is so extreme and sanity-warping psychoanalysts would find MRAs fascinating study.

gracemargaret
8 years ago

“So if they “ask you to rape” them, that means there was consent given… the anti logic just… it hurts >.<"

Yes, Joanna. I thought I was the only one who noticed this! Even well meaning people say things like this, it's frustrating.

I volunteered at a "Walk A Mile In Her Shoes" event. It was organized by a local sexual assualt trauma center, and the men who participated volunteered to raise awareness against violence against women. It was great, the men were there because they actually care about this issue and, again, VOLUNTEERED. He conveniently left all that information out.That deliberate misrepresentation is so typical.

Re: birth control. My sister gets ovarian cysts and before she knew that was what was causing the pain in her side, her cyst was so large she had to have it surgically removed. Now she takes birth control pills to stop getting cysts and it has worked. So this shouldn't be covered by insurance? Much cheaper than surgery!

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

Boggi – No. Please don’t double down on this. “No, it’s you who really acts like a stereotypical terrible woman!” is not a good way to do irony.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Dude, this is not about whether or not they deserve to be insulted. By using “bitches” as an insult, you are implying (and reinforcing the stereotype) that, to be a woman or womanly is to be inferior. You could have done everything you wanted without using “woman” as an insult.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Being womanly is humiliating for a man.

Tell that to Iggy Pop, who is far cooler than you or I could ever hope to be

http://media-cdn.pinterest.com/upload/206321226648707889_6fuEZIhn_c.jpg

AVT
AVT
8 years ago

You guys do realize that the American elite have a hell of a lot more privilege beyond being white and male, right? I mean, that’s part of it, but they’re also rich, they’re almost all able-bodied, they’re usually born into reputable families, they’re neurotypical, etc.

magdelyn
8 years ago

Being womanly is A W E S O M E ! ! !

Lauralot
8 years ago

Being womanly is A W E S O M E ! ! !

Pretty much, yeah.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

That’s good to hear, Mags. But I doubt your MRA pals would agree. Look at how often they resort to emasculating their male opponents likening them to female genitals (and thereby implying that they are lesser men).

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

by likening*

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
8 years ago

Being womanly is A W E S O M E ! ! !

Pretty much, yeah.

Forgive me for being an irredeemable chauvinist, but how? I don’t mean to be sexist in any way, but I genuinely don’t see anything spectacular about being womanly. To me it’s mostly bad, and this is probably due to our conditioning in this society.

Could you please inform me? Once again, I don’t wish to offend you, I genuinely want to know the truth.

AVT
AVT
8 years ago

@BoggiDWurms- I think that being womanly is awesome if you think being womanly is awesome. If you don’t like being womanly, then being womanly kind of sucks.

But by using it as a disparaging term, you’re seeking to extend that qualification beyond yourself, and that’s really not your call. Just IMO.

Quackers
Quackers
8 years ago

What does it even mean to be “womanly”? does it mean sexy? because that only works if you’re conventionally beautiful and thin. If you’re chubby or an overweight or not so beautiful woman you will be mocked if you try to express your sexuality. Why do you think fat women are painted as non-sexual on TV or in movies (that is the rare time they actually appear in movies)

Or when they do express their sexuality its only for comedic effect?

AVT
AVT
8 years ago

@Quackers- Yeah, I mean, there’s that too. I was just using B’s terminology to try to make my point, but I should have put “womanly” in quotes because, as you say, it’s inherently subjective.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

@kirbywarp

Well, yeah, in a way. Lifting marginalized groups pretty much always includes dismantling the unearned privilege of others, hence the backlash. But it’s more about helping folks than hurting anyone. The only “hurt” that comes in is when the privileged look around and start to notice that more folks are getting some of the stuff only “they” used to get. And for some people, it appears that that’s unconscionable.

Quackers
Quackers
8 years ago

oh no worries AVT, I wasn’t really addressing what you said in particular just kinda throwing in my own two cents on the topic. But yeah I do see what you’re trying to say regarding Boggi’s question.

I just think strict enforcement of stereotypical gender roles is harmful, and many people have different opinions on what being “womanly” or “manly” means anyway.

chocomintlipwax
8 years ago

I ran across our “mile in her shoes” march a couple of weeks ago. I got the email about it a few days before, and it said men could wear heels or “slippers.” (They call flip-flops “slippers” here so I wasn’t sure how that would be in any way different from what the men always wear, but I did see some “fuzzy” slippers in the march. And flip-flops. And heels.) The email also stated that the intent is not to be offensive toward trans people, shame people etc., but to give men a genuine experience of what it’s like to “walk in her shoes.” All fine and good (there were trans people participating) but it’s really hard to train 20-year-old men to stop finding femininity icky and gross, and you know some guys just do it for a laugh.

Well, as I walked by the march there were lots of women holding supportive signs, and then there were a few guys whistling at the group, catcalling, etc. Immediately I thought, “That’s not good,” but then I realized that … hey … these guys are getting the REAL experience. Uncomfortable catcalls and all. I still don’t think it was a “good” thing, but … well, that’s what it’s like to walk around as a woman. Sort of.

And speaking of assaults on campus, I just got an email alert like, an hour ago. No, we don’t get tons of email alerts about sexual assaults on campus (maybe 4 or 5 in the last year), but with all the alcohol and bureaucracy, you just know that they’re not all getting reported. Either because the victim is too scared, too ashamed, thinks that it was their fault, etc.

(Of course, Owl et. al. are of the opinion that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, there never was any tree in the first place.)

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
8 years ago

@AVT

Actually, that’s a good question. What does Mags mean when she says “womanly”? What does Lauralot mean when she says “womanly”?

I have metaphysical and mystical notions of “masculine” and “feminine” that are different from common notions in our society. I know what society’s ideas of “womanly” are and they aren’t very positive. But are your ideas?