Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”
When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.
Consider this post:
Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.
Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:
Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:
Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.
Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.
Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.
The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.
And then there’s this post:
I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!
Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?
EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:
Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:
[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.
Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.
@Holly and Hellkell: Arizona makes me glad I ended up in Texas (which is bad enough and is trying to copy AZ). *shudders*
Look, I reread my exchange with DSC. I stand by what I said, but for the record, it’s not my intent to engage in denialism. Male privilege is a very real phenomenon- of course it is. I only think that, in a patriarchal society, there’s a bit more to it than that. Men are privileged over women, and both men and women are privileged on the basis of performance to a narrow standard. That’s my interpretation of patriarchy as an axis of oppression, though of course I am willing to engage with others operating in good faith. The thing is, if you’re going to come in swearing and screaming, I’m going to react a little defensively, as I did here.
We won that in 2010 with SB1070 and it has been all downhill since. I will check to see if it is likely to pass COW (which it probably is because well…this IS Arizona.)
Shadow: In the middle east (and in parts of Asia) men touch a lot more. One of my friends and I teased another friend of ours when we got back from Iraq by walking to the PX holding hands.
It’s not that men don’t touch (at least in the Army) but the ways in which we accept social touching are different.
I belong to a couple of fairly touch-full subcultures. So people who aren’t well known to me are likely to offer hugs. It’s an interesting set of protocols, watching how people ask/accept/deny them.
AVT, thanks for laying down the rules. Wouldn’t know what to do without you. Funny, we’ve never heard the “not all men are privileged” argument before. Nope, not at all. Excuse if we don’t all fall out over your never before heard brilliance.
PFKAE, please tell Debbie whatsherface who authored the bill that she should be ashamed of herself.
AVT, you lost me at male-privilege and patriarchy.
darksidecat needs to learn how to express their opinion without attacking people … i mean it’s really embarrassing – I mean for them.
@Mags: kyriarchy! White privilege! Cis-privilege! Unconscious racism! Aversive sexism!
Will that lose you enough that you cannot come back, or do you have your pockets stuffed with breadcrumbs to strew so you can find your way back! And why do you want to keep coming back anyway?
I think she has heard and I think she has ignored.
AVT: You are woefully ignorant of the history and complexities of feminist theories, and the critiques of feminist theories by womanists and feminists of color, as well as of many of the working definitions developed by those who with to criticize the kyriarchy. Your assumption that the issue is how much individual blame can be attached to a man, and the insistence that some women benefit just as much or more than men, is a derail, and is language that is usually found in trolls who want to pretend to engage in actual discussion but who have no intention in engaging in good faith, and you are in fact engaging in denialism throughout, not to mention victim blaming. So why not take a flying fuck off and stop trying to pretend your rhetoric deserves anything except mockery (purpose of the site after all).
It is also possible to be misogynistic and nasty without using a single cuss word: and your posts have shown that. Lack of swearing does not mean anything except choosing not to swear: it’s not a guarantee of good faith, intelligence, morality, values, or any fucking thing else.
In other words, I agree totally with DSC that you’re fucking clueless about what you’re saying, and not worth the time to engage with in any discussions of the bloody fucking patriarchy. Get a grip, or a clue, do some more reading, and stop trying to pretend women in any group or on any axis are as ‘privileged’ as the equivalent group of men.
@Mags: Oh, I don’t DSC has done anything to be embarrassed about. You on the other hand regularly set off my embarrassment squick with your public performances.
So how can paying for womens contraception, plus paying for [abortions] and pregnancy be cheaper than only paying for [abortions] and pregnancy?
I think Owly should be forced to have this as his signature, so that any new posters who aren’t familiar with him will immediately be able to see how jaw-droppingly fucking stupid he is.
So if Boggi is from an Internet community of shithead feminists, he should… find a different community and stop being a shithead? That is not difficult. MOST people manage to avoid reading the YouTube comments, you know.
O, that way madness lies. Even on kitten videos, sometimes. It’s incredible.
I actually have a browser plugin to protect me from YouTube comments. (YouTube Options for Chrome.)
“…Your assumption that the issue is how much individual blame can be attached to a man…”
Bingo! We have have a winner.
I also have a personal policy of never watching “opinionated rant” YouTube videos. Even when I agree with the person it’s an awkward feeling, getting ranted at via webcam; when they’re saying something aggressively offensive to me it’s unbearable.
I find that most of the time, on noncontroversial videos of something I like, the top comments are OK. Like if it’s a music video, the top comments will probably be “They’re the best band ever” or something like that.
Below that, there lies madness.
A big non-thanks to ithiliana for reading a whole lot of imaginary shit into my words.
By the way, though it’s irrelevant, I can assure you I am quite aware of the “complexities of feminist theories”. That doesn’t mean I’m under any obligation to accept it all as gospel, and I don’t. So fuck you and your monumental arrogance.
AVT, don’t take it personally. It’s just business.
OH, NOES, AVT SAID “FUCK!”
To the fainting couches for some pearl-clutching!
I always zone out during videos: I’m incapable of concentrating on a person talking at me. What can I say, I’m a creature of text.
…It seems to have saved me from a lot of bullshit.
@AVT: , I can assure you I am quite aware of the “complexities of feminist theories”.
OK, then, same question I ask all the trolls who claim to be familiar with feminist theories/authors: name five.
Because what you said sure doesn’t prove it.
And no more than two can be current feminist posting in blogs: bonus points if one is 19th century, and two are womanists/feminists of color.
You don’t have to accept them or agree with them, but PROVE YOU HAVE READ THEM.
(And if three are Dworkin, McKinnon, and Solanis, you are typical troll being typical).
Hmmm…How about the wicked witch of the west? No, no. I model my life too much after her to be a feminist.
How about transphobist and man hater Mary Daly?
You burn when someone throws water on you Mags?