Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”
When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.
Consider this post:
Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.
Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:
Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:
Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.
Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.
Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.
The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.
And then there’s this post:
I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!
Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?
EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:
Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:
[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.
Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.
@DSC- It’s not crap. You’re right, obviously men can choose to engage in an oppressive manner, and many do. But I was speaking toward individual responsibility for the system as a whole.
Secondly, women’s participation in the patriarchy need not involve internal self-loathing; actually, that’s a non-sequitur because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. And I think you know that.
@katz
I’m not trying to “backpedal” or anything. There was a deliberate misunderstanding, and I communicated my ideas very poorly. When I said “God is a fantasy” I didn’t mean “There is no God and religious people are stupid.”
I mean that concepts people use to justify sexism like “God” and “Nature” are constructs and ideals people make up, and that gives them bias and prevents them from seeing things objectively.
“a deliberate misunderstanding”
???
Are you really that clueless?
When I speak of “God” I don’t mean the deity of the Christian faith. I mean an ideal like a mandate on what men and women “ought” and “ought not” to be, and what is “natural” and “unnatural”.
No, just closeted.
The last few months of my life have been utter shit. Don’t make it worse. I really, really don’t want to be sexist. Why else would I even come here! How can you doubt my very pro-feminist opinions from my posts and threads o the forum (the ones that haven’t been locked that is).
Thanks, Humpty Dumpty.
Now guess what I mean by “supercilious asshole who needs to at least drop the superior-to-the-sheeple complex if he’s going to make all these ‘mistakes’ like accidentally blaming women for sexism.”
Don’t worry, if you’re offended by it I’ll tell you it meant something else!
When I said “God is a fantasy” I didn’t mean “There is no God and religious people are stupid.”
You’ve outright said that people who believe in God are stupid! It was only a few weeks ago! (Could anyone be a dear and dig that up for me? I suck at archive binges.)
Perhaps I’ve just internalized a lot of sexism, and I’m fighting to destroy it.
No, you’ve internalized a douchebag sense of superiority, and changing its target won’t make you a better person.
Excuse me? Don’t use us to work your shit out. That’s unfair, and quite frankly a chauvinist thing to do.
I can doubt your oh-so-feminist opinions by the the not-so-feminist things you’ve said. Some of them in this very thread.
But Boggi, the locked thread are still real, and the fact you post here is certainly no reason for people to let slide what you say. You’re not a special snowflake in that, many other commenters have been attacked for what they said. Self declared MRAs, self declared feminists and everybody else is responsible for what they say.
And you really can’t say stuff so obviously offensive (it’s no like it’s the first time the subject comes up), say that you’re GLAD you’re offensive then refuse all responsibility because your life is though.
I thought the comparison to MRAL was exaggerated but now, I’m starting to wonder.
Oppressive systems don’t just pop by magic out of thin air. People create them and perpetuate them. And people are responsible for them. You can’t just pretend you don’t have responsibility for using, supporting, and allowing to continue systems of oppression.
Internalized oppression has nothing to do with self loathing? A woman supporting the oppression of women has nothing to do with internalized self loathing or self hate of women? Your argument is patently absurd. A woman participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that does her harm. Whereas a man participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that benefits him. Pretending that those are equivalent states is ridiculous on its face.
I know no such thing. Also, your baldfaced assertion that I am not arguing in good faith is incredibly fucking dismissive without actually addressing my points. So fuck you.
I’m not being “humpty dumpty”. I accidentally said things the wrong way, and didn’t communicate the message as I should have. I’m not trying to cover my tracks. Merely explain myself.
I said that in a moment of spite specifically to piss off an MRA, probably Ideologue Review or some other idiot.
What superiority? The problem is my internalized sexism.
I suffered a lot of anxiety depression before I discovered this site, and that suffering was caused my MRAs. What else was I to do! It was so horrible I wished I was dead almost every day.
But thankfully it’s almost gone…
I’m obviously in conflict. Now stop picking on me. Pick on AntZ or someone else. At least they are unapologetic, fully bigoted assholes who will never reveal the error of their ways.
At least I apologize and try to explain/correct myself.
The last few months of my life have been utter shit. Don’t make it worse.
If you’re going to spew insulting garbage and expect people to be all quiet and understanding and not question or criticize it, you’re the one making things worse.
I really, really don’t want to be sexist. Why else would I even come here!
To work out your issues at our expense? Would be the first time someone’s tried it.
How can you doubt my very pro-feminist opinions from my posts and threads o the forum (the ones that haven’t been locked that is).
You mean your “Doesn’t this incredibly sexist person have some interesting points?” routine? That’s a bug part of what’s causing me to doubt your “pro-feminist” stance, actually.
I suffered a lot of anxiety depression before I discovered this site, and that suffering was caused my MRAs. What else was I to do! It was so horrible I wished I was dead almost every day.
What else can you do? Go see a therapist.
So now we’ve got:
1) I’m not backtracking, I’m explaining myself
2) I said that in a moment of anger
3) I have a lot of personal problems, and this means that you shouldn’t object when I say offensive things
4) Can’t we just forget those times I was sexist? They were whole entire minutes ago. Forgive and forget, people!
5) If you don’t teach me to not hate women, who will?
I’m not saying Boggi is MRAL, obviously he’s not, but I’m suddenly reminded.
I don’t want people to just “be understanding” and just accept my offensive stuff. My offensive stuff is never intentional. It’s only when it is called out on that I realize that it is offensive and apologize for it.
You don’t get it, do you. You don’t get to say offensive stuff then tell people not to be offended, just because your life is though.
And you don’t get to tell us what to care about. But don’t pretend you receive the same treatment as MRA: http://manboobz.com/2011/09/08/man-boobz-video-7-split-the-country-in-half-men-on-one-side-women-on-the-other/
As long as you don’t have post devoted to mocking you, you’re really not treated like them.
So? It’s really not enough. Goodbye.
So Boggi, by your estimation, how many times do you get to say that people who believe in God are all stupid and deluded before it counts?
It’s kind of tempting to needle you by saying “Atheists are a bunch of assholes…oh wait I said that in a moment of anger and didn’t mean it” or something like that every time you show up, except that I don’t think offending half (or more) of the people here is acceptable collateral damage.
Belatedly: CONGRATS! Last time I was on ManBoobs you were still preggers, so good job moving things along. 😀
Which is true, and not just an excuse.
Which is also true, and not just an excuse.
That’s not I mean at all! You can object to me all you want! Each time I say an offensive thing I apologize for it!
That’s not what I want at all.
It’s not about that. It’s about me needing to “intellectually refute” MRA accusations OCD throes at me. It’s about staving off a monster in my head.
Futrelle, do me and everyone at Manboobz a favor and just ban me (both here and in the forums). Things will be a lot better that way for all of us.
It’s not the end of the world. :p Take the afternoon off and come back on a different thread tomorrow, one day older and wiser, and I promise people won’t “pick on” you for yesterday’s news.
@DSC- Sigh. All I meant was that individual men are not intrinsically responsible for larger systems of oppression. That’s it.
A woman participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that does her harm. Whereas a man participating in patriarchy is participating in a system that benefits him.
Really? This is a gross oversimplification. Personally, I’m of the opinion that patriarchy hurts the vast majority of both genders. As a group, men are privileged over women- of course- but only in relative terms. And the further individual men deviate from the pre-approved masculine ideal, the more they’re marginalized. Since not many men are Don Draper… well.
There are a thousand and one ways women- on an individual basis- could rationally participate in the patriarchy, and benefit from doing so. Frankly, I’m really not interested in spending an inordinate amount of time debating this with an asshole who came in swearing and waving zir hands, and also because I don’t think what I’m saying is very controversial. If anyone else here has an objection, please say so, and I’ll be more willing to engage.
If you’re depressed/anxious, things seem like bigger deals than they are. Seriously. It’s no big. Just take a breath and come back tomorrow and you’ll be fine.
/womanly job of comforting sad man
@Boggi… sigh.
I’m sorry you’ve been having a rough time, really. I hope things get better for you. However, that does not mean people aren’t allowed to call you out on stuff. That’s not fair.
You don’t want to be sexist? Great. I don’t want you to be sexist either. That’s on you, though. You can’t blame the uncomfortable feelings you have about the possibility that you have some sexist thoughts on the people who notice you being sexist. If you said the same things and nobody called you on it, they would still be sexist things. If you want to make those uncomfortable feelings go away, asking people to shut up about it so you don’t have to question yourself isn’t the way to go. You should be grateful for the opportunity to question yourself. Work through your discomfort and learn something.
Understand, too; most people are sexist. Most people aren’t MRAs. If you’re saying some problematic things, that doesn’t make you Paul Elam. It just makes you… average. Better, maybe, because you care enough to want to not be that way.
And hey, so you don’t feel like I’m beating up on you, I have tons of privilege. I had some painfully clueless ideas about race when I was younger, despite considering myself an ally of PoC. I said clueless things to a Black friend of mine in high school, which I feel guilty about to this day. I’m almost definitely still clueless in ways I don’t even think about. But instead of sticking my fingers in my ears going “LA LA LA NOT RACIST NOT RACIST” or getting mad at the people who call me out on stuff, I try to learn as much as I can so that I can be the best ally that I can. By the way, “learning as much as I can” does NOT mean “demanding members of an oppressed group teach me.”