PROTIP: If you don’t want people to think you’re hateful, you probably shouldn’t talk about how the notion of making feminists afraid gives you a misogyny-boner. Or give dudes who say shit like this any upvotes:
Actually, here at Man Boobz we still chuckle about you guys. Pretty much all the time.
Also, Demonspawn? Complaining about women having the right to vote? Probably not a great PR move either.
Yeah, I think the ED-style trolls are completely harmless in meatspace – possibly annoying, but harmless. It’s the other ones where I wonder if their belligerence carries over into real life.
@Ithiliana, your current and proposed future research both sound fascinating.
@CassandraSays
For a while, I thought that maybe the existence of online outlets for disturbing behavior by MRAs might be a way they could “let off steam” without actually harming anyone. I know there have been studies that show that with the rise in the availability of online porn, sexual assault rates have gone down (or at least not up). After seeing more of these online MRA outlets, I think they actually work to reinforce or even increase a sense that even violent misogyny is acceptable and supported/upvoted. So yeah, I admit I have no science at all to back that up, but the end result is that those MRA forums and blogs freak me the fuck out.
@cloudiah- I want to second that last sentence of yours. Especially since online misogyny and trolling often lead to online (and offline) stalking and harassment. It’s just fucking awful.
@M Dubz, yeah, I want to go back and hang out in the kittens thread for a while. And maybe with actual kittens, since they are clearly mad that I have been on my computer all day. Goddamn thesis, it should just write itself. Sigh.
Meatspace? The new synonym for real life?
@empatwhatever
Seriously, have you met any white people? Ugh.
Anyway, although everyone’s already pointed out the “mocking misogyny” bit, there is quite a bit of detailed troll takedown here. Holly in full flight is a beautiful thing to watch, in particular.
Try reading a few threads at a site before picking your strawmen and they stay together a little more easily.
Ithiliana explains this in the other thread, but interactions on the net ARE real life. It’s interactions between two or more real people. It’s this dileneation between “real life” and the internet that makes things like cyber-bullying and cyber-stalking such an underreported and ignored problem.
@Morgan: And the term “meatspace” is way old–I associate it with the cyberpunk novels (Neuromancer, etc.), Gibson and Stirling, which relied heavily on the binary of men=mind, women=body, and all the Cool Dudez In Sunglasses slipped into the virtual world leaving their “meat” (body) behind. It’s an incredibly dismissive, ugly, term–but not at all new.
*goes to look for citations*
Meatspace; earliest citation in Oxford English Dictionary:
1995 Seattle Times (Nexis) 30 Oct. a1 In this sagebrush ranch town where the elevation is about eight times the population, John Perry Barlow is multitasking between cyberspace, meatspace and parentspace about as well as a mere mortal can do.
I associated it with earlier stuff, and I’m not the only one:
http://ask.metafilter.com/15851/Origin-of-the-term-meatspace
@Morgan: Please define “real” as in “real life.” How are interactions online any less real than interactions offline (or via telephone, or letters).
“If he who employs coercion against me could mould me to his purposes by argument, no doubt he would. He pretends to punish me because his argument is strong; but he really punishes me because his argument is weak.”
– WIlliam Godwin
whenever i hear the ‘meatspace’ stuff, i always think of the rakshasa demons from zelazny’s lord of light, because they used ‘meat’ as a slur for non-energy beings
This is the world, nor am I out of it.
@ithiliana
Why do you consider it an ugly term? I’ve always encountered it in a pretty neutral context so I didn’t know till now that it can be used dismissively.
Sharculese: That’s it!
I loved Zelazny’s stuff, and that was one of my favorite.
@Shadow: All the connotations.
“Meat” is food, fuel, to be consumed.
The ongoing slurs associating women with meat are one of the nastier sexist metaphors.
In the cultural imagery, “meat” has no mind, no will, no spirit. What’s positive about it? What’s even neutral.
As I said, I see it mostly in the cyberspace and virtual reality discourses — spaces historically and even recently dominated by men — and the way it connects to men=mind and women=body binary that’s completely tainted by the hierarchy makes it impossible for me to see it ever as neutral (even if users intend it as neutral, I don’t buy it).
Just an FYI: Rakshasa literally means demon, so Rakshasa demons is a redundant phrase
@ithiliana
Huh, interesting. I never thought to connect those together, but put like that, I can see how it can be offensive. Is it often used in a gendered manner, or is it more the historical association with woman and meat?
in the context of lord of light it isnt. it’s all about a planet that mimics the hindu pantheon, and the rakshasa demons are natives of the planet, energy beings who oppose the colonists.
@Sharculese
I’ll have to check that out. It’ll be interesting to see a Western adaptation of hindu concepts.
@Shadow: http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/05/14/no-comment-woman-as-meat-shirt/
PETA is notorious for its misogynstic imagery of women in its animal rights campaigns.
Food is gendered: http://www.salon.com/2010/07/02/food_gendering/
TRIGGER WARNING SOME REALLY HORRIBLE DISTURBING IMAGES
Google Results: “women are meat” image search
https://www.google.com/search?q=women+are+meat&hl=en&sa=X&pwst=1&rlz=1C1ARAB_enUS452US452&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=kzpcT6XjG8bs0gGC6-zSDw&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=475
Google results: “men are meat” image search
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ARAB_enUS452US452&ix=sea&q=men+are+meat&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=2TpcT5iCAsf10gGfxpjCDw&biw=1024&bih=475&sei=3zpcT4v8HOPt0gG50_iOAw
A quick skim and I didn’t see anything needing a trigger warning.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………….
@ithiliana
Oh don’t get me wrong, I fully agree about the historic (and present) misogynistic “women are meat” meme. I was just wondering about “meatspace” in particular. Googling lead me to this book: Working bodies: interactive service employment and workplace identities
By Linda McDowell, where she says a lot of what you do.