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[TW for rape apologism and domestic violence.]
Paul Elam of A Voice for Men has responded to the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights Movement with an letter to the organization’s head. Apparently, the SPLC is confused, and AVFM isn’t hateful at all! Indeed, it’s like the opposite of hateful. Loveful, you might call it. Here’s Elam:
Contrary to what readers of your site may be led to believe, the goals of SPLC and AVfM are quite similar: We both work to identify groups who seek to oppress others, and inform the public of the inequities they would perpetuate. … The work of AVfM is vital and, despite what you may think, not dissimilar from the goals and aims of the SPLC.
Indeed, AVFM might better be thought of as “a human rights organization.”
Elam also clears up a little matter of terminology:
[T]he term “mangina” is not a euphemism for “weak men,” but rather a label for men who enable and excuse female misconduct – ranging from physical violence to exculpatory false reporting of crimes … – solely because the offender is female (and to gain women’s approval).
I think I can speak for all manginas when I say, thanks for the clarification, Paul!
At the end of the letter, Elam gets all Martin Luther King on us:
Those who fear truth, and brand it as hatred and bigotry, hide behind the worst kind of cowardice – the sniveling complacency that for generations allowed the rich to starve the poor, for one person to own another because of the color of their skin, and for the officers at Nuremberg to claim they were “just following orders.” …
This movement will grow, as it has since its inception, and the time will come when the SPLC (and other groups) must admit our fundamental similarities and aspirations. I am inviting you, with open arms, to do just that.
The alternative, I fear, is that you come down on the wrong side of history, with the likes of Dred Scott as your legacy.
Inspiring stuff, Paul. Nazis, Dred Scott– you totally nailed it. Who could possibly doubt your passion, or your deeply moral vision?
Here’s a link to his letter.
Oh, wait, that wasn’t a link to his letter. That was a link to a post of his in which he tells a feminist that:
I am not going to stop. You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection.
Here’s the link to his letter.
Oops! That was actually a link to a post in which he suggests that “vermin” like me (and another feminist writer who has also been critical of the Men’s Rights movement) deserve to be killed. Or have something awful and permanent happen to us that would solve “the problem” that is us. He’s a little vague.
Here, at long last, is the link.
Oh, sorry, that’s actually a link to a post in which Paul puckishly suggested that October, currently designated as Domestic Violence Awareness Month, should be renamed “Bash a Violent Bitch Month.” As he explained:
I’d like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women – to beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.
And then make them clean up the mess.
What a wit!
Anyway, here’s the letter.
Gosh darn it. I’m not doing too well with links at the moment. That’s actually a link to a post in which Elam suggests that women who drink and go home with men are “freaking begging” to be raped:
Damn near demanding it.
And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.
I guess that’s what they call “human rights advocacy” right there.
Ok, finally, the letter:
Damn. That wasn’t even by Paul. No, that was a guest post on A Voice for Men by a fellow named Keith, with an explanation for why men don’t just beat women all the time. (It’s not why you’d think!)
Let’s face it guys if it was about size or domination, or patriarchy or anything other than power, wouldn’t we be kicking the shit out of women on a daily basis in the streets? The only reason men don’t randomly pound the shit out of women who can’t keep their mouths shut, is because they don’t mean anything to us and they have no power over or in our lives. They are not worth the trouble! That’s the only reason there isn’t bodies strewn all over the streets.
That’s enough human rights advocacy for me for now. Here’s the actual link to Elam’s letter.
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This post contains some
Yeah, this. It’s kind of frustrating sometimes. But he only ever uses real men’s issues as a cover–the meat of his “work” is “fucking their shit up.” He’ll talk big about prostate cancer–then open a harass-women website. He’ll talk big about homeless men–then send violent threats to women.
Although sometimes he seems to really not understand or not accept that there’s such a thing as helping men without hurting women. He seems to think that if feminism was abolished homeless men would all magically get houses; therefore attacking feminism is far more important than donating to a shelter. In fact, it’s so much more important he never gets around to donating at all…
>>>We will not stop until we have achieved equal protection under the law for men, boys, and fathers.
Shortest. Lived. Civil. Rights. Movement. EVER.
Hey, Anthony, serious question for you. I’m a man, and I’d like to be able to join other groups of men and talk about the issues that face them in society–overly-rigid gender roles, the idea that men have to be uber-butch and strong or they’re useless, that kinda thing. I’d like to help break those ideas down.
Thing is, I’m gay. And transgendered. Do you know of any groups I could join that wouldn’t, you know, try and kick my ass?
Anthony Zarat February 29, 2012 at 11:31 am
Anthony Zarat March 9, 2012 at 10:47 am
With soldiers like you, Zarat, who needs enemies?
All mocking aside -well some mocking aside- Zarat, you and the rest of the delusional, feckless, lazy, lying, keyboard-commando-warrior-wanna-be, whiny ass titty babies are not the sole reason that the MRM can’t be taken seriously as an active and productive force for men’s rights…
But, damn if you idiots aren’t a major part of the problem.
And as someone whose work deals directly with trying to help men and boys, here in the real world, I sincerely hope that if nothing else this statement from the SPLC acts as wake up call for those genuinely concerned with advocating for men. Hopefully, they will choose to disassociate themselves from the rest of you dipshits and get on with the work of real and productive activism. The sooner they jettison the baggage of the “I want the country divided by gender along the Mississippi and a virtual reality wife” types, the better.
AntZ, isn’t it FOREIGN BRIDE time? In other words, fuck OFF.
Paul Elam can say AVfM isn’t a hate group all he wants, but to those of who can read and understand words (not an MRA strong suit), he’s full of shit.
I think Antz views himself as the Spartan leader in 300.
“We will not stop until we have achieved equal protecvtion of government for men, boys and fathers.” Do you mean the the protection for men should be equal to the protection for boys and the protection for fathers; or that the protection for men, boys, and fathers should equal the protection for women, girls, and mothers? If it is the latter, allow me to welcome you to feminism.
@Kyrie:
Oh my gosh. Best explanation of Anthony Zarat ever. +1.
It’s sort of funny how they see women being equal to men as a coded threat, but men being equal to women as a totally legitimate cause.
Equal in what, seriously, anyway. The only “equality” that’s been proposed is that men and women should have equal rights to control women’s bodies.
Abortion is not about pregnancy. It’s about a person being able to make their own choices about their body. A woman has a legal right to an abortion because of the same reason that a man can go get a vasectomy against his wife’s wishes or can go get plastic surgery without having to have a partner sign off on it.
The guy who suggested that men should be able to force a woman to continue a pregnancy or abort against her wishes, what should happen if a man wants to have a child and his wife doesn’t? Should he have the right to force her to get pregnant? After all, she made the choice to marry him. Doesn’t that mean that she has to live with the consequences- including forced pregnancy?
Actually, I suspect that some MRAs would be in favor of forced pregnancy if a man wanted it.
Missy: Some? It’s pretty much party line.
AHAHAHA! The organization founded to take on the KKK, a group with a history of violence and murder, should be scared of you? Really? The MRM is nothing compared to the groups the SPLC has gone after before. That is grade A delusion.
@Missy: actually, I don’t think men can get vasectomies without their wife’s permission in practice because men aren’t treated as having an existence independent of their wife or female partner when it comes to reproductive matters. There’s no law against it, it’s just that doctors don’t allow it. (Also, there’s this idea that pops up now and again that men getting vasectomies in this way is somehow a form of reproductive coercion by not getting her pregnant.)
Elam loves playing King of the Thugs, but also loves playing Mr. Serious Civil Rights Leader. Trouble is, you sort of can’t be the second if you’re the first, and his King of the Thugs posts are all there on the web for everyone to see.
Occasional lurker here…
Love this site!
Thank you David for having the courage to take on these red-faced, angry infants.
I would love to see and hear from the former wives of these embittered narcissists. Does anyone know who Paul Elam or W.F. Price was married to and what happened? There seems to be some type of DV allegation against Price but all we ever hear is his side.
Bahahaha, what doctor exactly is this?
A doctor certainly may ask “have you discussed this with your partner?”, but it’s not like they give you a permission slip to have her sign.
(Also, really, you shouldn’t be partnered with someone you can’t tell that you’re having a vasectomy. But I understand sometimes life isn’t simple, etc. Which is why tons of doctors will do a vasectomy any time the man wants one.)
Here’s a vasectomy clinic consent form:
http://www.thevasectomyclinic.com/site/pdfs/ConsentForm.pdf
Note the line that says “Spouse’s signature optional.“
Really? That’s the first time I hear about that. Do you have evidence of it?
And there are doctors who won’t perform a tubal ligation on a woman without consulting with her husband/male partner. And doctors who won’t perform either type of sterilization, regardless of gender, if they believe that the patient is too young.
What’s your point?
You know what? If there is a vasectomy clinic that says men can’t get vasectomized without their partners’ consent, I oppose this. I think it’s wrong. That clinic is fucked up and should change or get out of the business.
I do not think that this justifies denying women control of their bodies.
The answer is that everyone should have freedom to make decisions about their own bodies. That’s a men’s rights stance I could get behind.
Or simply because the patient hasn’t children.
I assumed makomk was being facetious… is not so? D:
Also, to add to the wtfery, in many countries, guys like me HAVE to be sterilized to be recognized as their gender. So yeah, it’s totally fucked. (While if I walked in as a cis woman, they likely would fight me tooth and nail over it.)
And I thought I wanted to work for the SPLC *before*. It’s awesome of them to highlight the scary side of MRA nonsense while also making sure to mention the (small number of) legitimate cases of unfairness and discrimination against men, particularly in the family courts.
The impression I got, from friends out in the States, is that there are actually a lot of stories of people (both men and women, though I gather (from reading feminist sites) that this is more of a problem for cis-women) having to convince their doctors that they are ready for sterilization. I think part of it is because insurance companies generally don’t cover reversals (again, y’all really need some form of subsidized healthcare), and part of it is that they don’t believe that people don’t want children. I know a het-couple that both had trouble getting sterilized.