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A Voice for Men responds to the Southern Poverty Law Center. With love.

Welcome to the fifth and final day of the Man Boobz Pledge Drive. If you haven’t already, please consider clicking the little button below and sending a few bucks my way.

Thanks! And, once again, big thanks to all who’ve already donated. I’ve been amazed and humbled by the response, which was greater than I had ever expected. Seriously, you rock. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

The look of love, AVFM-style.

[TW for rape apologism and domestic violence.]

Paul Elam of A Voice for Men has responded to the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights Movement with an letter to the organization’s head. Apparently, the SPLC is confused, and AVFM isn’t hateful at all! Indeed, it’s like the opposite of hateful. Loveful, you might call it. Here’s Elam:

Contrary to what readers of your site may be led to believe, the goals of SPLC and AVfM are quite similar: We both work to identify groups who seek to oppress others, and inform the public of the inequities they would perpetuate. … The work of AVfM is vital and, despite what you may think, not dissimilar from the goals and aims of the SPLC.

Indeed, AVFM might better be thought of as “a human rights organization.”

Elam also clears up a little matter of terminology:

[T]he term “mangina” is not a euphemism for “weak men,” but rather a label for men who enable and excuse female misconduct – ranging from physical violence to exculpatory false reporting of crimes …  – solely because the offender is female (and to gain women’s approval).

I think I can speak for all manginas when I say, thanks for the clarification, Paul!

At the end of the letter, Elam gets all Martin Luther King on us:

Those who fear truth, and brand it as hatred and bigotry, hide behind the worst kind of cowardice – the sniveling complacency that for generations allowed the rich to starve the poor, for one person to own another because of the color of their skin, and for the officers at Nuremberg to claim they were “just following orders.”  …

This movement will grow, as it has since its inception, and the time will come when the SPLC (and other groups) must admit our fundamental similarities and aspirations.  I am inviting you, with open arms, to do just that.

The alternative, I fear, is that you come down on the wrong side of history, with the likes of Dred Scott as your legacy.

Inspiring stuff, Paul. Nazis, Dred Scott– you totally nailed it. Who could possibly doubt your passion, or your deeply moral vision?

Here’s a link to his letter.

Oh, wait, that wasn’t a link to his letter. That was a link to a post of his in which he tells a feminist that:

I am not going to stop. You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection.

Here’s the link to his letter.

Oops! That was actually a link to a post in which he suggests that “vermin” like me (and another feminist writer who has also been critical of the Men’s Rights movement) deserve to be killed. Or have something awful and permanent happen to us that would solve “the problem” that is us. He’s a little vague.

Here, at long last, is the link.

Oh, sorry, that’s actually a link to a post in which Paul puckishly suggested that October, currently designated as Domestic Violence Awareness Month, should be renamed “Bash a Violent Bitch Month.” As he explained:

I’d like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women – to beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.

And then make them clean up the mess.

What a wit!

Anyway, here’s the letter.

Gosh darn it. I’m not doing too well with links at the moment. That’s actually a link to a post in which Elam suggests that women who drink and go home with men are “freaking begging” to be raped:

Damn near demanding it.

And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.

I guess that’s what they call “human rights advocacy” right there.

Ok, finally, the letter:

Damn. That wasn’t even by Paul. No, that was a guest post on A Voice for Men by a fellow named Keith, with an explanation for why men don’t just beat women all the time. (It’s not why you’d think!)

Let’s face it guys if it was about size or domination, or patriarchy or anything other than power, wouldn’t we be kicking the shit out of women on a daily basis in the streets? The only reason men don’t randomly pound the shit out of women who can’t keep their mouths shut, is because they don’t mean anything to us and they have no power over or in our lives. They are not worth the trouble! That’s the only reason there isn’t bodies strewn all over the streets.

That’s enough human rights advocacy for me for now. Here’s the actual link to Elam’s letter.

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Elizabeth
Elizabeth
8 years ago

Wow. These guys are just so angry. How does it get to this?

wajib
wajib
8 years ago

This kerfuffle made Reddit significantly more entertaining.

Graham
8 years ago

The scariest thing about Paul Elam is that I think he actually believes all the shit he says.

boomboom
boomboom
8 years ago

Thank you, David. That letter needed to be exposed. Any thoughts on why Angry Harry escaped the SPLC radar?

Lauralot
8 years ago

David, you are a wonderful person, and you are hilarious.

With that said, reading those things make me ill.

But just imagine the SPLC reading that letter. Can’t you just see them gathered in a circle and laughing?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

Fidelbogen commented,

The calm before the storm. The foreboding silence. Can you feel the electrical tension in the air, as the thunderheads pile up and up over the prairie? The sky grows ominously dark. Look yonder, a funnel cloud….!

Sure, Fidelbogen, having your site called out for its hate is exactly like a fucking tornado. Seriously, think about what you write before you write it.

I am very pleased to see SAVE singled out as one of the misogynistic groups. They try very hard to look respectable, but their agenda is no better than AVfM and the Spearhead. Now I can direct people to the SPLC when I state why the MRM is the Abusers’ Lobby.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

The excerpts you have chosen from these sites are taken out of context and misrepresent the goals of A Voice For Men (“AVfM”) and Register-Her.

*sigh* I really hate context arguments sometimes. Because he never actually goes on to mention what the context was, or to provide the context for the quotes. He just goes on to assert that “you and I aren’t so different after all.”

A Voice for Men has more than 90 registered contributors.

Huh… What about all those claims of thousands or millions of MRAs ready to take the world by storm? Apparently stormfront has 130,000 registered members, and used to have around 20,000 active members before 2008 (number from an SPLC page).

Apparently the spearhead has a little over 800 (“many of whom are probably only occasional users” – source).

boomboom
boomboom
8 years ago

The first link. Does it not dawn on them that their complaints that talking about rape and DV does not “PAINT” all men as anything? Yet when a woman makes that claim it’s laughable? I mean… I’m at a loss for words.

Also I was looking to see if he was talking to vermin when he said those disgusting things to this random women. No, she just wondered if those sites were ok. Disagree with her, fine, but wow. The violent speech speaks for itself.

Lauralot
8 years ago

Sure, Fidelbogen, having your site called out for its hate is exactly like a fucking tornado. Seriously, think about what you write before you write it.

Fucking Christ. You want to talk about tornadoes, Fidelbogen, you piece of shit? Let me tell you about tornadoes. I drove home for spring break last Friday THROUGH a tornado. I had to stop due to the rain completely destroying my visibility, and had repeated phone calls from my horrified family members asking if I was all right. Then I got to drive through the aftermath of a nearby community whose entire school system was destroyed, along with dozens of homes, and I got to look at all the cars that had been utterly demolished while trying to drive away. And the icing on the cake is that I got to spend the entire weekend hearing about the status of a child who had been carried ten miles by the storm while her family had been instantly killed, and she didn’t make it.

In conclusion, Fidelbogen, your bullshit movement is more comparable to the funnel formed when one drains a bathtub than it is to any force of nature. Fuck yourself.

boomboom
boomboom
8 years ago

@kirby I suspect that “A Voice For Men has more than 90 registered contributors is a veiled deflection. He didn’t WANT to say the next line outright, “and I might not agree with all of them”…

He can’t say that because he does agree with all of them. But he put that in there to see if that would go over. I pulled up the articles where serial killers were held up as victims and warnings, and the ones I found were written by JohnTheOther, not Paul. He likely loves what John writes. Yet there’s that have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too by just throwing that out there that there are lots of contributors. I mean he didn’t even say “and opinions, or expressions of those opinions may vary” He’s hoping that will go over without him having to flat out distance himself. It would be a lie anyway.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

Fucking Christ. You want to talk about tornadoes, Fidelbogen, you piece of shit? Let me tell you about tornadoes. I drove home for spring break last Friday THROUGH a tornado. I had to stop due to the rain completely destroying my visibility, and had repeated phone calls from my horrified family members asking if I was all right. Then I got to drive through the aftermath of a nearby community whose entire school system was destroyed, along with dozens of homes, and I got to look at all the cars that had been utterly demolished while trying to drive away. And the icing on the cake is that I got to spend the entire weekend hearing about the status of a child who had been carried ten miles by the storm while her family had been instantly killed, and she didn’t make it.

In conclusion, Fidelbogen, your bullshit movement is more comparable to the funnel formed when one drains a bathtub than it is to any force of nature. Fuck yourself.

AMEN!

I am so sorry for your experience, Lauralot. That must have been very frightening. I know a lot of what you’re going through, because we had quite an ordeal in Joplin last year with a tornado. If you ever want to talk about it at the forums, I’ll do anything I can to help. I’m just as mad at you. I look out my windows at dirt lots where houses used to be, where my neighbors died, and here Fidelbogen is saying the MRM is like a fucking tornado. What an asshole.

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

In conclusion, Fidelbogen, your bullshit movement is more comparable to the funnel formed when one drains a bathtub than it is to any force of nature. Fuck yourself.

[applause]

Anthony Zarat
8 years ago

Futrelle, we are going to win. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protection under the law for men, boys, and fathers. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protecvtion of government for men, boys and fathers.

After we have won, our struggle will be written into history. You will be remembered also, for what you have done. You will share company with other historical figures who have fought for sexism and intolerance, such as Samuel Bowers, William Joseph Simmons and Richard Girnt Butler.

Do not doubt for an instant that this will occur. We want no more than equality. No more than equal treatment by our government. We will win.

Lauralot
8 years ago

Antz, shouldn’t you be spending time with your FOREIGN BRIDE?

Lauralot
8 years ago

Thanks, Kendra. Thankfully, no one I knew personally was harmed (though one family friend was in the school while it collapsed, he managed to get out safely). Still, it’s sickening to see MRAs try to compare themselves to such horrible tragedies. They redefine the phrase “tempest in a teapot.”

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

Comment from “Codebuster:”

The SPLC should know better, to let sleeping dogs lie. Their actions are the very sort of thing that will eventually backfire, whether now or in the future, because they have every likelihood of precipitating actions and reactions, providing media exposure, and ultimately forcing the rest of the population to take sides.

See, that’ll prove that MRAs don’t advocate violence!

Nope, they merely “predict” “actions and reactions.” That could mean anything. I’m sure he’s talking about letters to the editor.

Also, wow, he thinks people are all going to stand up and take sides on the MRM. Of the people I know in real life, the only ones who know what “MRA” stands for are the ones who read Manboobz.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

Futrelle, we are going to win. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protection under the law for men, boys, and fathers. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protecvtion of government for men, boys and fathers.

“I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection.”

After we have won, our struggle will be written into history. You will be remembered also, for what you have done. You will share company with other historical figures who have fought for sexism and intolerance, such as Samuel Bowers, William Joseph Simmons and Richard Girnt Butler.

” I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.”

Do not doubt for an instant that this will occur. We want no more than equality. No more than equal treatment by our government. We will win.

The only reason men don’t randomly pound the shit out of women who can’t keep their mouths shut, is because they don’t mean anything to us and they have no power over or in our lives.

EQUALITY
EQUALITY
EQUALITY

Lauralot
8 years ago

Equality is “fucking your shit up,” apparently.

ScrappyB
ScrappyB
8 years ago

Darn, less impotent rage than I guessed, but I was right on the baaawing. I should have gone with the thin blanket of pious denial approach.

“I don’t hate women, I just think men are oppressed!”

“I don’t hate homosexuals, I just hate their sin!”

“I’m not against blacks/Jews/Muslims/whatever, I’m just pro the white race!”

Thanks for exposing Elam as the lying sack of hypocritical shit that he is. He can’t even hide behind the “I only provide the platform for others I don’t necessarily agree with” excuse, since he wrote those vile words himself.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@AntZ:

Oooh, so feminists are like white supremacists now? I thought white supremacists were on your side of the field…

After we have won, our struggle will be written into history.

You don’t have to wait that long, take a look!

Do not doubt for an instant that this will occur.

Too late, I am doubting.

We want no more than equality.

Doubting.

No more than equal treatment by our government.

Doubting.

We will win.

Doubting.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

Aww, a blockquote disappeared… 🙁 Fiddly things, those blockquotes.

For a little taste of what a poster on the spearhead thinks of equality, here is someone philosophizing on how to equalize men’s rights on reproduction.

Reproductive Rights Rights During Pregnancy:
-Women: Abort Fetus
-Men: None

To Equalize Rights During Pregnancy:*
Option 1: Require father’s consent to abort a pregnancy
Option 2: Allow fathers to mandate abortion against the mother’s wishes (!)

Reproductive Rights After Childbirth:
-Women: Surrender child to be supported by state taxpayers via Safe Haven laws (Typically up to 30 days after birth; varies by state)
-Men: None

To Equalize Rights After Childbirth:
Option 1: Eliminate Safe Haven Laws
Option 2: Allow Fathers to surrender parental rights (yes, avoiding child support) within Safe Haven timeframe

A little story about a couple I know. They are husband and wife but have problems because the wife feels like she never gets to make any decisions. The husband thinks this is absurd, because for example when they go out to pick furniture for their house, the husband lets the wife pick out what she likes. All he asks is to have the final say on what they end up buying.

Of course, what this means is that the wife doesn’t actually have any choice at all, because her opinion is superseded by her husband’s. Equality!

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Looks like Antsy is going to denial again. Poor thing. The VR form was better.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Graham: The scariest thing isn’t Paul Elam. It’s that people say he’s moderate. That people like Roberta refuse to admit he, and his fellow travellers, are (at core) violent.

ScrappyB
ScrappyB
8 years ago

@Holly

I think more people would take sides on the MRM if they knew about it. Only it wouldn’t be the side they think. Normal people would take one look at some of the hateful rhetoric the MRMers spew and decide they didn’t want anything to do with it. There may even be a backlash.

It’s a shame because some of the things Elam mentions in his letter are real issues. Too bad he only uses them as an attempt to distract attention from his own hateful views. When has he ever volunteered to help homeless men or donated to prostate cancer research? I’m betting never.

darksidecat
8 years ago

Men are currently the privileged class. You want to be equal with women? You want to be denied rights over your body, raped in higher numbers, paid less, make up a disproportionately small percentage of all parts of government, etc.? No, you fucking don’t actually wanted to be treated equally to a woman, you want the law to maintain and further your oppression of women.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

It’s a shame because some of the things Elam mentions in his letter are real issues. Too bad he only uses them as an attempt to distract attention from his own hateful views. When has he ever volunteered to help homeless men or donated to prostate cancer research? I’m betting never.

Yeah, this. It’s kind of frustrating sometimes. But he only ever uses real men’s issues as a cover–the meat of his “work” is “fucking their shit up.” He’ll talk big about prostate cancer–then open a harass-women website. He’ll talk big about homeless men–then send violent threats to women.

Although sometimes he seems to really not understand or not accept that there’s such a thing as helping men without hurting women. He seems to think that if feminism was abolished homeless men would all magically get houses; therefore attacking feminism is far more important than donating to a shelter. In fact, it’s so much more important he never gets around to donating at all…

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
8 years ago

>>>We will not stop until we have achieved equal protection under the law for men, boys, and fathers.

Shortest. Lived. Civil. Rights. Movement. EVER.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Hey, Anthony, serious question for you. I’m a man, and I’d like to be able to join other groups of men and talk about the issues that face them in society–overly-rigid gender roles, the idea that men have to be uber-butch and strong or they’re useless, that kinda thing. I’d like to help break those ideas down.

Thing is, I’m gay. And transgendered. Do you know of any groups I could join that wouldn’t, you know, try and kick my ass?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

Anthony Zarat February 29, 2012 at 11:31 am

I am sorry. I misunderstood. As you know, I believe that VR is the only way men will find safety from institutional prejudice that stems from asymmetric compassion. I do not believe that the MRM will succeed, and I am preparing for a future where equality is permanently out of reach for men, boys, and fathers.

Anthony Zarat March 9,  2012 at 10:47 am

Futrelle, we are going to win. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protection under the law for men, boys, and fathers. We will not stop until we have achieved equal protecvtion of government for men, boys and fathers.

With soldiers like you, Zarat, who needs enemies?

All mocking aside -well some mocking aside- Zarat, you and the rest of the delusional, feckless, lazy, lying, keyboard-commando-warrior-wanna-be, whiny ass titty babies are not the sole reason that the MRM can’t be taken seriously as an active and productive force for men’s rights…

But, damn if you idiots aren’t a major part of the problem. 

And as someone whose work deals directly with trying to help men and boys, here in the real world, I sincerely hope that if nothing else this statement from the SPLC acts as wake up call for those genuinely concerned with advocating for men. Hopefully, they will choose to disassociate themselves from the rest of you dipshits and get on with the work of real and productive activism. The sooner they jettison the baggage of the “I want the country divided by gender along the Mississippi and a virtual reality wife” types, the better.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

AntZ, isn’t it FOREIGN BRIDE time? In other words, fuck OFF.

Paul Elam can say AVfM isn’t a hate group all he wants, but to those of who can read and understand words (not an MRA strong suit), he’s full of shit.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

I think Antz views himself as the Spartan leader in 300.

Fatman
Fatman
8 years ago

“We will not stop until we have achieved equal protecvtion of government for men, boys and fathers.” Do you mean the the protection for men should be equal to the protection for boys and the protection for fathers; or that the protection for men, boys, and fathers should equal the protection for women, girls, and mothers? If it is the latter, allow me to welcome you to feminism.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@Kyrie:

I think Antz views himself as the Spartan leader in 300.

Oh my gosh. Best explanation of Anthony Zarat ever. +1.

shaenon
8 years ago

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

It’s sort of funny how they see women being equal to men as a coded threat, but men being equal to women as a totally legitimate cause.

Equal in what, seriously, anyway. The only “equality” that’s been proposed is that men and women should have equal rights to control women’s bodies.

Missy
Missy
8 years ago

Abortion is not about pregnancy. It’s about a person being able to make their own choices about their body. A woman has a legal right to an abortion because of the same reason that a man can go get a vasectomy against his wife’s wishes or can go get plastic surgery without having to have a partner sign off on it.

The guy who suggested that men should be able to force a woman to continue a pregnancy or abort against her wishes, what should happen if a man wants to have a child and his wife doesn’t? Should he have the right to force her to get pregnant? After all, she made the choice to marry him. Doesn’t that mean that she has to live with the consequences- including forced pregnancy?

Actually, I suspect that some MRAs would be in favor of forced pregnancy if a man wanted it.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Missy: Some? It’s pretty much party line.

Noadi
8 years ago

The SPLC should know better, to let sleeping dogs lie.

AHAHAHA! The organization founded to take on the KKK, a group with a history of violence and murder, should be scared of you? Really? The MRM is nothing compared to the groups the SPLC has gone after before. That is grade A delusion.

makomk
makomk
8 years ago

@Missy: actually, I don’t think men can get vasectomies without their wife’s permission in practice because men aren’t treated as having an existence independent of their wife or female partner when it comes to reproductive matters. There’s no law against it, it’s just that doctors don’t allow it. (Also, there’s this idea that pops up now and again that men getting vasectomies in this way is somehow a form of reproductive coercion by not getting her pregnant.)

Laura
Laura
8 years ago

Occasional lurker here…
Love this site!

Thank you David for having the courage to take on these red-faced, angry infants.

I would love to see and hear from the former wives of these embittered narcissists. Does anyone know who Paul Elam or W.F. Price was married to and what happened? There seems to be some type of DV allegation against Price but all we ever hear is his side.

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

actually, I don’t think men can get vasectomies without their wife’s permission in practice because men aren’t treated as having an existence independent of their wife or female partner when it comes to reproductive matters. There’s no law against it, it’s just that doctors don’t allow it.

Bahahaha, what doctor exactly is this?

A doctor certainly may ask “have you discussed this with your partner?”, but it’s not like they give you a permission slip to have her sign.

(Also, really, you shouldn’t be partnered with someone you can’t tell that you’re having a vasectomy. But I understand sometimes life isn’t simple, etc. Which is why tons of doctors will do a vasectomy any time the man wants one.)

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

Here’s a vasectomy clinic consent form:
http://www.thevasectomyclinic.com/site/pdfs/ConsentForm.pdf

Note the line that says “Spouse’s signature optional.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

There’s no law against it, it’s just that doctors don’t allow it.

Really? That’s the first time I hear about that. Do you have evidence of it?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

@Missy: actually, I don’t think men can get vasectomies without their wife’s permission in practice because men aren’t treated as having an existence independent of their wife or female partner when it comes to reproductive matters.

And there are doctors who won’t perform a tubal ligation on a woman without consulting with her husband/male partner. And doctors who won’t perform either type of sterilization, regardless of gender, if they believe that the patient is too young.

What’s your point?

Holly Pervocracy
8 years ago

You know what? If there is a vasectomy clinic that says men can’t get vasectomized without their partners’ consent, I oppose this. I think it’s wrong. That clinic is fucked up and should change or get out of the business.

I do not think that this justifies denying women control of their bodies.

The answer is that everyone should have freedom to make decisions about their own bodies. That’s a men’s rights stance I could get behind.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

And doctors who won’t perform either type of sterilization, regardless of gender, if they believe that the patient is too young.

Or simply because the patient hasn’t children.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

I assumed makomk was being facetious… is not so? D:

Also, to add to the wtfery, in many countries, guys like me HAVE to be sterilized to be recognized as their gender. So yeah, it’s totally fucked. (While if I walked in as a cis woman, they likely would fight me tooth and nail over it.)

donsie
8 years ago

And I thought I wanted to work for the SPLC *before*. It’s awesome of them to highlight the scary side of MRA nonsense while also making sure to mention the (small number of) legitimate cases of unfairness and discrimination against men, particularly in the family courts.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

The impression I got, from friends out in the States, is that there are actually a lot of stories of people (both men and women, though I gather (from reading feminist sites) that this is more of a problem for cis-women) having to convince their doctors that they are ready for sterilization. I think part of it is because insurance companies generally don’t cover reversals (again, y’all really need some form of subsidized healthcare), and part of it is that they don’t believe that people don’t want children. I know a het-couple that both had trouble getting sterilized.

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