[TW for the comments to this post; discussions of rape and abuse.]
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization devoted to tracking and exposing hate groups, has just published a detailed report on the misogyny and violent rhetoric so pervasive in the Men’s Rights Movement — as well as the actual violence inspired by this sort of hatred of women. It’s a piece you all should read, even though few of the details will be new to long-time readers of this blog.
Arthur Goldwag, an expert on conspiracy-mongers and the far right, argues (I think correctly) that the Men’s Rights movement is largely a backlash against the many successes of feminism over the last several decades:
It’s not much of a surprise that significant numbers of men in Western societies feel threatened by dramatic changes in their roles and that of the family in recent decades. Similar backlashes, after all, came in response to the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, and other major societal revolutions. What is something of a shock is the verbal and physical violence of that reaction.
[Thomas] Ball’s suicide brought attention to an underworld of misogynists, woman-haters whose fury goes well beyond criticism of the family court system, domestic violence laws, and false rape accusations.
The Men’s Rights Movement, as it exists today, is not a civil rights movement; it is a regressive, hateful reaction against a civil rights movement — that is, feminism.
Those who truly care about the rights of men, and who are not motivated by a hatred of women or feminism, need to repudiate the hate and the violent rhetoric of the Men’s Rights Movement as it exists today. Only then can there be a Men’s Rights Movement worthy of the name.
EDITED TO ADD: The SPLC has also put up a guide to some of the more hateful sites in the manosphere. Longtime readers will be familiar with most of them.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: And a piece debunking some Men’s Rights Myths.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN, AGAIN: The discussion of the SPLC report on the Men’s Rights Subreddit is surprisingly reasonable, so far. (I mean, compared to what I expected. Meanwhile, over in this thread, the Men’s Rightsers are behaving as they usually do.)
Tamen: While I appreciate the sense of concern you are expressing, it would help if you were being honest about what Bostonian did.
Which wasn’t saying TS was lying about being abused, but of padding it with details to make it more useful when beating feminists with it.
Hellkell: I wouldn’t have commented on this thread if I hadn’t read Bostonian comment where s/he wrote “TS is one of the few people I am sure are lying about aspects of his abuse.”. There is nothing faux about my indignance over Bostonian’s comment and that is why I decided to make my first comment.
You can of course choose to dismiss my comments based on my “timing” rather than considering whether Bostonian’s comment was over the line or not if that is more convenient for you.
Bostonian: “TS is one of the few people I am sure are lying about aspects of his abuse.”
So the above statement is not disputing his abuse story in any way? Well, you fooled me and Sharculese for that matter.
Look, Tamen, if I thought Bostonian was over the line, I’d say so (others would too, this is not Shrinking Violet Theater up in here). Bostonian is NOT accusing TS of lying about abuse, but of fudging the aspects to fit his axe to grind re: feminism.
Perhaps you’d understand that if you could be arsed to read. It’s much easier to feign outrage.
“Aspects” of the abuse include the ongoing statement that his aunt was a feminist, therefore this proved feminist ideology is based on abusing male children to teach them not to be sexist.
My memory of the thread(s) was that commenters expressed concern and regret regarding TS’s abuse, and did not question it, but did not accept that his abuse, by an aunt he claimed said abused him because FEMINISM, meant that feminism was predicated on abusing male children because of patriarchy.
I’m sure that people can find the thread(s) if you’re too lazy to google it–me, I’m going to bed.
Pecunium: “TS is one of the few people I am sure are lying about aspects of his abuse. It is way to convenient a narrative for an antifeminist. He could have been abused, but I doubt his abuser actually specifically identified as a feminist.”
That is what Bostonian wrote. People can read for themselves and even though you obviously interpret that comment differently than me I’d appreciate if you didn’t call me dishonest. I guess you emphasize the word aspects used by Bostonian to support you interpretation. Well, I put emphasize on the words “lying” together with “could have beeen abused”.
Given your interpretation of Bostonian’s comment shall I take that to mean that it’s still not ok to accuse rape victims of lying, but it is ok to accuse them of embelishing their story? Because that’s what your comment reads like to me and I’m really nok ok with that either.
I know you are trying to be combative, Tamen, and you think you have scored some sort of point, but you have yet to prove that you can read, so once again, 1-800-BITEME is the complaint line.
Feel free to use it.
Tamen has commented before, zie is not a sockpuppet (or an mra if I recall correctly).
Jumbo, I know Tamen’s commented here before, and I wasn’t accusing them of socking, just noting the timing.
Ithiliana: I am not really talking about what people wrote on another thread since I haven’t read all that. I wrote about this comment on this thread by Bostonian at March 10, 9:26 pm. I get that there is some sort of history leading up to Bostonian’s comment, but I’d still not publicly accuse someone for lying about their rape (or aspect of it) unless I had proof.
I think bostonian crossed the line when he said that. i believe toysoldier when he says he was abused. yeah, bostonian, i think what you said was fucked up.
but bostonian has a history of line-crossing, and in the past he’s always admitted he crossed the line.
what pisses me off, tamen, is that you seized on the fact that i said ‘a little bit’ and even after i explained that that’s just how i talk, and not a phrase with any implicit meaning, you proceeded to pretend that i was intimating some sort of holocaust against dudes (which would be stupid, because SHOCKER i am a dude)
I will say that zie is the same one that tried to lie about rape stats in this thread:
http://manboobz.com/2012/01/25/quiz-how-did-reddits-atheist-community-responded-to-a-womans-account-of-rape/comment-page-3/#comments
so take that as you will…
Yeah, I don’t see any reason to doubt his story. I just think he’s an idiot for the stance he takes as a result of it. And he’s an even bigger idiot for being shocked that people would tell him he’s an idiot when he’s showcasing his idiocy.
Ok Sharculese, I can see your point, and I did tap dance close to the line this time. TS is a disingenuous jerkwad in many ways, and it is hard to believe that all his just so stories are true.
I did get testy when I saw someone clutch their pearls over him because I hate that he uses his website mainly to mock rape victims and beat them over the head with lies.
Oh you were right hellkell, tamen does know TS so thats probably why zie is here now. (Zie made some comments on TS’s blog before and appears to be a fellow mra)
How dishonest is Toysoldier? He lies about things that people can check for themselves by merely scrolling up the page.
He’s written an update to his post, responding to the discussion here. He says:
Here, in fact, is what toysoldier wrote about Roberta’s trolling here:
DUDE THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID YOU SAID. I QUOTED YOU DIRECTLY. YOU SAID WHAT I QUOTED. IT’S RIGHT THERE ON THE SAME PAGE.
Was it wrong of me to suggest that he was calling us meanies? This was not a direct quote, but a characterization of his attitude. Well, in the post, he talked about how the commenters here “viciously attacked” a rape survivor. He described what we do here as “manipulating, bullying, and trashing people.” So, yeah, I’d say that was a reasonable characterization of what he says about us. (It’s not actually true, but it’s what he said.)
What on earth does he think I’m putatively lying about here?
Oh right, Tamen is the jerk with the made up rape stats! Thanks jumbofish. Tamen can still call the complaint line.
Tamen: You’d appreciate it if I didn’t call you dishonest? I’d appreciate it if you weren’t.
If you’d like I could say you were lying about what was said. Somehow I don’t think that’s going to appease you.
The fact of the matter is Toysoldier has shown no cumpunction about lying about things which happened in venues we can check. Bostonian said that aspects of his story are awfully convenient. Having been a participant in that thread, I don’t have a problem with that statement, because TS has been overtly dishonest in other ways. I wouldn’t do it. I might not even agree with it, but that’s not the point.
The point isn’t even that you do. You not agreeing with it is fine, but saying Bostonian said TS wasn’t abused, is a lie.
i fucking love how despite knowing your name, he refers to you as ‘manboobz’ in a sadsack attempt to dehumanize you
I love the way he follows the threads here, so he can mine them. I have a hard time keeping up sometimes, and I;m taking part.
Tamen, in his post Toysoldier lies about and mocks Holly, who is a rape survivor., Does this not bother you?
man, pecunium, this is one of the few times i’m gonna disagree with you, but i have zero tolerance for this kind of speculation. if someone says they were raped and/or abused, i will believe them absent substantive evidence to the contrary.
also, i know you have a decent grasp of latin, so i am going to look askance at you for ‘cumpunction’
Please also note that TS lies about Holly in ways that can be verified, as well. He does that a lot.
I have a feeling he thinks everyone is as dense as he is.
He didn’t let your comments in david, he is such a coward. XD
I left one so we will have to see if he lets it go through. (probably not)
Also, in this very thread, not only was Holly mocked, but Roberta was totally evil to LBT. Tamen had quite the opportunity to defend rape/abuse victims, but said squat until their buddy TS got a mention.