[TW for the comments to this post; discussions of rape and abuse.]
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization devoted to tracking and exposing hate groups, has just published a detailed report on the misogyny and violent rhetoric so pervasive in the Men’s Rights Movement — as well as the actual violence inspired by this sort of hatred of women. It’s a piece you all should read, even though few of the details will be new to long-time readers of this blog.
Arthur Goldwag, an expert on conspiracy-mongers and the far right, argues (I think correctly) that the Men’s Rights movement is largely a backlash against the many successes of feminism over the last several decades:
It’s not much of a surprise that significant numbers of men in Western societies feel threatened by dramatic changes in their roles and that of the family in recent decades. Similar backlashes, after all, came in response to the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, and other major societal revolutions. What is something of a shock is the verbal and physical violence of that reaction.
[Thomas] Ball’s suicide brought attention to an underworld of misogynists, woman-haters whose fury goes well beyond criticism of the family court system, domestic violence laws, and false rape accusations.
The Men’s Rights Movement, as it exists today, is not a civil rights movement; it is a regressive, hateful reaction against a civil rights movement — that is, feminism.
Those who truly care about the rights of men, and who are not motivated by a hatred of women or feminism, need to repudiate the hate and the violent rhetoric of the Men’s Rights Movement as it exists today. Only then can there be a Men’s Rights Movement worthy of the name.
EDITED TO ADD: The SPLC has also put up a guide to some of the more hateful sites in the manosphere. Longtime readers will be familiar with most of them.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: And a piece debunking some Men’s Rights Myths.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN, AGAIN: The discussion of the SPLC report on the Men’s Rights Subreddit is surprisingly reasonable, so far. (I mean, compared to what I expected. Meanwhile, over in this thread, the Men’s Rightsers are behaving as they usually do.)
As an internet-lawyer, I’m sure you understand the importance of citing the specific passage in which Holly (or anyone else, for that matter) said this.
Or you could just not rape people.
I mean, I’ve gotten through nearly 30 years of life without ever being accused of raping anyone – but maybe I don’t count, because I’m a woman. So let’s talk about my boyfriend, who used to have a LOT of casual sex with a LOT of women, and who has managed to make it through over 30 years of life without ever being accused of raping anyone. Wanna know his secret?
He only fucks people who WANT TO FUCK HIM. They generally express this by saying things like, “I want to fuck you.” Sometimes they didn’t say that, so he would ask them things like, “So, wanna fuck?” and they would say, “Hell yes” instead. It was all very complicated and confusing, provided you are a moron who is confused by incredibly straightforward and obvious things.
I am so tired of this bizarre misogynist meme that figuring out if someone has any actual interest in having sex with you is some deeply convoluted process involving mind-reading powers. Here on planet Earth, there are these things called “incredibly basic communication and observation skills” that make it pretty easy for virtually everyone to tell the difference between “gasping person saying, ‘god, that feels great, fuck me harder'” and “person lying there looking miserable and praying you’ll stop soon.” It is not actually a subtle distinction!
Radfems should cry into their knitting…these women who love MRAs hate men more than the most militant of our radfem sisters/ eyeroll
Besides which, your continual dismissal of men in the same situation makes me worry for all potential partners of yours, regardless of your sexuality.
*coughcoughBULLSHITcoughcough*
In other news, I was surprised but not terribly shocked to see this: blogger Mike Riggs at Reason.com, is is upset by the SPLC article, and pretends that it targets silly people like Mystery (the strange hat man).
Frickin’ frackin tags… here is Mike Riggs’s article: The Southern Poverty Law Center Is Now Writing About Pickup Artists as Hate Groups
Roberta: But if literally all hetero sex is rape, why bother trying to draw a distinction?
At the very least they believe that rape should be a subjective crime. Where it’s rape if you say so and it’s not if you don’t. That’s little better.
Who here has claimed the first?
It’s not subjective, in they way you claim it is.. The difference is that you see it as crime of intent (person A wishes to have sex with person B, and will use force to get it). We don’t. We see it as a crime of effect. Person A doesn’t freely give consent.
On the other hand, your definitions aren’t objective, so it’s not as if you have some talismanic touchstone to use and say, “This was RAPE!”. Who is to say, absent injury that force was used? Who can say that the threat of losing a job, being reported to child services, etc. was a realistic threat? Who is to say that, present injury, it was consensually rough sex and now there is, “buyer’s remorse”?
Only the victim. Who, other than the victim (other than a rape on tape) is there to testify to the threat?
You are merely trying to move all the burden to the victim.
Again, I’m not. That’s a really nice strawman you keep trying to build, be a shame if anything were to happen to it.
Fact: I am male.
Fact: I beleive everything I’ve written about rape.
Fact: I am not worried about being accused of rape (honestly, or falsely).
Fact: In thirty years of having sex (with more than a couple of women), I have never been accused of rape.
Not once. Probably for the same reason I am not worried about it. I get consent first. I work to see that consent is maintained. When my partner has said, “no, I’ve changed my mind”, I stop. When my partner has said, “I’m not in the moood,” I don’t start.
It’s really easy. I assume my partner has agency. I communicate with them. It works a lot better than saying, “I didn’t pull a gun, and she said, “Ok, I guess”, so I’m good to go.”
Which seems to be the only criteria you require to decide it wasn’t rape.
This may be TMI, but: I’m planning to have sex with my boyfriend tonight. (Booyah.)
I’m not going to accuse him of rape!
This is because:
A) Despite being a woman and thus a raging unpredictable creature, I’m actually quite honest, and would not accuse someone of a crime they didn’t commit.
B) Accusing someone of rape is an ordeal; I would be subjected to a medical exam, social ostracism, months of legal proceedings, and people giving me this kind of shit every time I mentioned it.
C) Even if he went to jail, what would I get? It’s not like they give me his money when he goes to jail.
D) He doesn’t have to play “legally technically by the dictionary that wasn’t rape” games, because he has sex with me that is not like rape at all. Sex I actually want! Which rather simplifies things.
And if I don’t want sex he doesn’t play “how can I force you to have sex with me but not force force you,” games, he goes to sleep.
E) I actually like my boyfriend because in addition to having sex with each other, we actually have a positive and trusting relationship. I’m not trying to preach here, but fucking people who can stand to be around you? Really a great way of ensuring your safety.
F) If I got him arrested for rape, how would I get laid next time? Gosh, talk about not thinking ahead.
Oh noes! The VR women are coming to take my place!!!gasp sob run to Beloved and beg him not to trade me in….
Um…how many WOMEN talk about VR sexbots with such satisfaction?
@polliwog
You completely discount the possibility of regret. Something that research shows us is extremely common. Especially among women.
Keep fucking around if you like. But I’d never stop looking over my shoulder if I were you.
WTF is this metaphor?
On the “eye of the beholder” part, the reason you got lost Roberta, is because you’re not speaking about the same as the rest of us.
We say that the victim have the right to name them-self what happen to them, and that the opinion of the law, the dictionary or internet lawyers is not very relevant. Which is a way to say rape victims don’t need your blessing to call what happened to them ‘rape’.
How are you offended by being called a misogynist, again?
Seriously. It’s a descriptive word. It means you think women are bad.
You think women are likely to randomly make false rape accusations against men, and that sex robots are superior to women. Therefore, you think women are bad.
Therefore, you are a misogynist.
Why even argue about the word? It describes you.
Sex robots aren’t superior to women, they’re just less likely to end your existence.
What research from where? Your ass does not count.
Do men never regret sex?
Frankly, I’m not even sure Roberta is a woman, but more like an MRA pretending.
Roberta, if you’re down with VR sexbots, have you met Zarat yet? You two would get along just fine.
Roberta: Unless they regret their decision and decide to relieve their cognitive dissonance by accusing you of rape. Something which is becoming more and more common.
Citation sorely fucking needed. Go down the hall, and ask your firm’s research librarian to run a Lexis/Nexis search on that one. Get back to us with the stats (and references).
If your firm is too small, do it yourself.
Het men who sleep with women are playing games with their life. Just wait for sex robots. It’s only a matter of time.
Have you talked to AntZ? David K. Meller might also have some insights on the future of “cybercuties”.
Here in the real world, men and women are still fucking. They are enjoying it. They aren’t crying rape for shits and giggles.
Well I know I cannot move on my own Pillowinhell.
Research suggests otherwise
Okay, so I’m confused by the logic here.
If we define rape as “sex the victim didn’t want,” then women will lie and say they didn’t want sex when they did.
But if we define rape as “sex the victim was forced into” then… women won’t just lie and say they were forced?
It seems like if you’re going to accuse women of randomly making up accusations, you might as well credit them with being able to make up whatever.
Unless you secretly don’t think the women are lying at all, but think that women shouldn’t get to refuse sex for a stupid ol’ reason like not wanting to, and wish that women’s wants were entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
Forgive me for saying this, but… only if you left the Jaguar dealer crying on the floor in a fetal position, Roberta. I think this is the rather vital distinction you’re missing.
Roberta, rape is not a capital crime, so it doesn’t actually “end your existence”. Are you capable of saying anything that is true?
Proof of it? Somehow I’m guessing that if your ‘proof’ exist, it will sound a lot like “many raped women don’t call what happen to them ‘rape’ at first”.
Just to be sure, Roberta, you are a woman? How many men have you falsely accused so far? If none, are just better than the rest of us? (if so, please details)
What do you think happen most, rape or false accusation of rape? (all genders, all orientations) What do you think is currently the biggest problem?
Also, have you met Antz? You would do a wonder couple, if he had already this FOREIGN WIFE.
Ninja’s by hellkell. This conversation is moving way too fast for my little fingers.
@holly
The difference is holly, that the subjective nature of rape you advocate for is much more susceptible to post-hoc interpretation.
Whether or not you agreed to have sex is a matter of objective, empirical fact. Whether or not you “wanted” to have sex is all about your own internal feelings. Who could ever dispute your feelings? If that were the standard than anyone accused would be guilty by default.