Men’s Rights Redditors to Rebecca Watson: How dare you say we hate women, you [obscene gender-related slur]

Kirby, what I think The Steer is trying to say is that he was making well-informed, even handed criticisms of feminism, as was PZ. And since PZ is not a misogynist, neither is he.

NO IT COUNTS AS BEING WEATHERYNIST!

Why do you hate the weather, Kirby? =[

@ Steersman:

You’re being called a misogynist because you’re claiming that there’s nothing wrong with using misogynistic language. If you don’t want to be called a misogynist, don’t defend the use of misogynistic terms.

And yes, using the word “cunt” is misogynistic. Your defense of the term is just silly.

And relative to which, I’m curious about various views on the fact that the Collins English Dictionary defines, as one definition anyway, “cunt” as:

3. Offensive slang: a mean or obnoxious person

While many – mostly women – apparently consider the use of that insult of one woman as a sexist insult of all women, that really doesn’t seem to hold a lot of water as the definition quite clearly refers to a single person – not a class. Which I think tends to make anyone taking offense but the person to which it is directed somewhat presumptuous at best if not bizarre.

Just like how gay people get all upset about people using the word “faggot”. If you call someone a “faggot”, you’re clearly just referring to one particular individual and not insulting gays as a whole.

. . .

Yeah, that’s basically what your argument amounts to.

And don’t argue that that’s different because the definition of “faggot” refers specifically to gays, but the definition of “cunt” doesn’t refer specifically to women in your particular dictionary. (Other dictionaries do note that the word “cunt” is typically directed at women. I’ve got the Oxford English Dictionary Online open in another window and it’s second definition of “cunt” is “applied to a person, esp. a woman, as a term of vulgar abuse.”) We both know full well that women are much more likely to be called cunts and the word is specifically used to demean women.

Don’t argue that the word “cunt” isn’t sexist because despite being applied to women most of the time, it’s occasionally used to insult men as well. I’ve heard the term “faggot” used to insult straight people as well. That doesn’t make the term “faggot” any less homophobic. When someone calls a straight person a homophobic slur part of the intended insult is in comparing them to gays. When people use the word “cunt” or “bitch” to insult a man, part of the intended insult is in comparing them to women.

Sarah,

Kirby, what I think The Steer is trying to say is that he was making well-informed, even handed criticisms of feminism, as was PZ. And since PZ is not a misogynist, neither is he.

Bingo – more or less; at least I try though I don’t always succeed all that well. But it’s not so much a criticism of feminism as I am generally very supportive of its general principles and values. As a case in point, I’ve frequently quoted a Canadian suffragette – Nellie McClung – who said that no nation rises higher than its women – a big reason that Islamic countries are so backward.

My objection to it though is that any criticisms of it are frequently met with charges of “misogynism” which I don’t think does anybody any good.

Nah, man, quoting the dictionary and deliberately ignoring the way the word is used in the vernacular is obnoxious and misogynistic.

If I’m not mistaken that’s the advantage and benefits of dictionaries – it allows everyone to be on the same page; improves the conversation immeasurably if people aren’t using idiosyncratic and contradictory meanings.

P.S. Steersman.

Now I’m trying to figure out what misogynism would mean if it was an actual word.

katz,

The “I’m well-informed and objective!” argument is almost never a useful tack to take, and comparing yourself to someone who actually is well-informed and objective isn’t going to ever improve it.

Generally speaking I would agree with you. However, when it is accompanied – as it was in my case – with some solid facts, particularly when the opposition doesn’t have any, then the balance tips in favour of those with the hard evidence.

I highly doubt that anything is frequently met with “misogynism,” since that isn’t a word. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary.

I said “criticisms … met with charges of misogynism”. Seems clear enough to me that the meaning is that some of those criticizing feminism are charged with being misogynist. That’s what I intended anyway ….

I think the fear is that the evil feminist poison will get to her and she’ll divorce him and take the kids.

If she ever finds the stuff he writes on here I bet she does divorce him. Not because argh feminist poison, just because WTF dude, VR and dividing the nation along the Mississippi?

Kyrie, AntZ isn’t happy with her. He loves everything about her except the fact that she could totally ditch him. So he wants to ditch her first and replace her with an exact VR replica.

The topic of profanity and gendered insults in particular is an interesting one. And relative to which, I’m curious about various views on the fact that the Collins English Dictionary defines, as one definition anyway, “cunt” as:

3. Offensive slang: a mean or obnoxious person

This is the bit where we try to sound all linguistic-y, and then sneak in bizarre non sequiters after everyone’s stopped paying attention!

While many – mostly women – apparently consider the use of that insult of one woman as a sexist insult of all women, that really doesn’t seem to hold a lot of water as the definition quite clearly refers to a single person – not a class. Which I think tends to make anyone taking offense but the person to which it is directed somewhat presumptuous at best if not bizarre.

What the hell, dude, no one does this. If you insult a woman by calling her ‘dumb’, feminists do not rally around shouting YOU HAVE INSULTED ALL WOMEN. Unless, you know, you insulted her by saying ‘you are dumb because you are a woman’. In which case you are, explicitly, insulting all women.

An analogous case in point being the fact that very few if any men are going to be offended if someone – male or female – calls some other man a “prick”, a word which has virtually the same definition.

Well, some people (of both genders) would be offended by that. I don’t use it personally. But it is generally agreed to be much less insulting to call someone a prick than to call them a cunt. Hm, I wonder why?

(If you’re determined they are EXACTLY EQUALLY INSULTING, I suppose I could dig up some better evidence than the dictionary. But really, guy, REALLY?)

And the other reason proffered that some might consider that as a generic insult of all women is because the anatomical feature in question is supposedly substantially more odious than any other one. After all we don’t try to insult each other by saying, “you ignorant nostril” or “you ignorant ear canal”

Indeed! We insult people by comparing them to something bad, not something which we have neutral feelings about.

But I really don’t think that holds a lot of water either as it seems more a case of synecdoche – a figure of speech in which a part is used for a whole, among other cases – and maybe suggesting that the “insultee” is no more than part of a real person, that they have abandoned any claims to “personhood” by being, well, particularly “obnoxious”. Although, of course, it seems that the audience and/or insultee has some obligation to assess whether the judgement in question – obnoxiousness – is particularly valid or relevant, or whether the insulter is only blowing smoke. Rather than, one might suggest, simply reacting on the basis of “my class, right or wrong”.

I’m having trouble getting a grasp on what exactly you’re saying here. May I paraphrase thus: “I know what synecdoche is. I think it is the only element that makes ‘cunt’ an insult. I think this despite the complete absence of insults reducing someone to a part of the body that is not sex-related or scatological. (“You’re such an elbow.”)

How the mind works – genuflecting towards Steven Pinker’s previous opus – is certainly a fascinating study, whether it’s the neurochemistry and physiology of stereovision or of insults.

Good book! Not really on-topic here, though.

kirbywarp,

Idiosyncratic and contradictory meanings of the word “c*nt” you mean…

Generally speaking, yes. But more accurately the colloquial meanings and connotations as the dictionary is generally, although not always, not contradictory.

But relative to those contradictory meanings you might want to take a look at the Wikipedia article on profanity and a linked study by a New Zealand Broadcasting company on the acceptability of various profanities. Seems “c*nt” is there at the top of the list but even there only some 53% considered it “totally unacceptable” with the balance at lesser degrees. So, who gets to decide which is the meaning and connotation that everyone must give obeisance to? Yours? Mine? At least Dictionary editors are likely to be providing a balanced judgement based on broad surveys that everyone can – and should – use.

Remind me again the non-misogynistic reason you have for using the word?

As per the dictionary – which should be the gold standard, to characterize someone who is being particularly obnoxious. Generally female, although not always in which cases “prick” seems to be the word of choice or “asshole” which Pharyngulites seem to have a particular affection for.

Yeah, see when criticisms of feminism generally take the form of misogyny, and feminists respond by calling it misogyny, that generally is considered a good move. The thing that doesn’t do any good is trying to criticize feminism through misogyny. Like calling people “c*nts.”

Unfortunately that assumes that the use of “c*nt” is an insult to all women, that it is inherently sexist. Which still seems to me to be the question in play that has not been resolved – except maybe by your command. And, no offense, I think that dictionary editors have a little more credibility than you do.

Thanks for the link to “Less Wrong”. But I don’t see that the site is one by Merriam-Webster or any other credible dictionaries. So I’ll have to take the opinions there with a large helping of salt.

Steersman, how is any of this tedious semantic quibbling even remotely relevant to the OP? Are you seriously trying to argue that the repeated use of the word “cunt” in the Reddit posts quoted there wasn’t misogynist in intent?

Also, Wetherby and I are both Brits. Notice how neither of us are going “yeah man, it’s totally cool to call people cunts because blah blah British English”? In context, it’s still an insult that depends on sexism for its sting.

But hey, if some people want to defend to their last breath their right to use slurs that other people find offensive because they want to, dammit, and they’re too lazy to find another way to insult people they don’t like, then carry on. The rest of us will be over here mocking your attempts at rationalization.

How do you feel about the insult “Stop being such a girl”? TO THE DICTIONARIES! Girl means basically female, therefore women who get find this offensive to women are oversensitive. Men are never offended by things.

You’re welcome.