Men’s Rights Redditors to Rebecca Watson: How dare you say we hate women, you [obscene gender-related slur]

Rutee Katreya: “Are you illiterate?” I am not English, if you find something wrong with that sentence grammatically, then it’s my bad.

Sharculese: “i dunno man, how can you be so self-centered as to lecture us on a set of customs you admit to knowing nothing about, or to make up bullshit about a woman you’ve never met?” The main problem with this, is that you view this as a lecture. If it as custom for Americans to hit on woman with saying “Don’t take this the wrong way. But I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee.”, or something like that, I accept it. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have an opinion about it: it’s silly to hit on somebody this way. That is why if a woman said this to me, I wouldn’t interpret it as a hit on.

CassandraSays: “Men only hit on women who’re their personal ideal? Well, that flies in the face of everything else that dudes like this believe about men, women, and sex.”

I presume your reply was for this sentence: “I mean how can somebody be so self-centered, to think that she is the ideal of every male on the planet?” That was just an assumption about the woman who accused me of taking photos of her, when I was obviously not. And when I have convinced her that I wasn’t taking pictures of her, he said I am gay, because of not finding her attractive. How is that generalization? You see why she was selfish?

And it was not the first story what I hear, from many other fellows I know, they had very uncomfortable encounters, with foreign woman, just like this. For example here it is a custom to hold a door for a woman at an entrance, and let her go in first. A friend of mine held a door in Washington for a woman, and she accused him of sexual harassment, and threatened to send him into jail.

pillowinhell: “JU you’re seriously going to sit there and tell me I don’t understand the culture I live in, when you know nothing about it yourself?

I don’t say you don’t understand the culture you live in. I just say that it is irrational to say that a women will always identify a hit on. It is as irrational, as saying: men always orientate themselves better in a 3D environment and use maps more easily.

It’s the same stereotype, and just an intuition, some people think that intuitions are reliable, but in reality there is no scientific evidence for that. So to say that “trust a woman to know when she is being hit on”, is illogical.

“That one woman once made one mistake does not mean that women in general cannot decipher social cues, especially where they involve sexual requests by men. Women here don’t often get the luxury of staying niave because we take the blame foir being sexually assaulted.”

I never made a generalization to all woman. I just wanted to say, that intuitions just work, or don’t work. It’s like prayer, if it works it’s proof or God, if doesn’t, then it’s an exception. What one person interpret as A, another can interpret as B, it’s subjective, not objective. Yes, some people think that preparing for the worst is a good policy, because you don’t have unwanted surprises. But that doesn’t mean we should avoid objectivity.

“So I suggest that you take your personal problem of thinking women are self centered idiots and keep it carefully tucked away where no one can see it.”

I don’t have any personal problem related to this. If you take my words out of context, of a single event, what I used to refute your claim that intuition is always right, (and not for attacking woman generally) and turn it into an ad hominem attack, why should I take it seriously?

Could you explain how it is discriminatory towards women, when I say that we couldn’t know for sure, if it was a hit on? And why everybody is saying that this is as attack against Rebecca, did I say anything about her person? Is making false accusations about me (that I think women are idiots, when obviously not, not even mentioned such thing [or when I say about a person, that he is good at the piano, and he happens to be Italian, you would interpret it as if would said: every Italian is good at the piano?]), and dismissing my opinion on the ground of this accusation a valid way to argue (reductio ad Hitlerum)?

BINGO! I just got a troll bingo from JU,s last comment!

Seriously JU, asking a woman to come to your room at 4am over here is definately making a pass. It might not be where you come from, but it is definitely so in North America. Different cultures different customs. Knowing my own cultures customs and drawing a reasonable, straight line conclusion from it does not make me irrational. But nice try on the wimminz be crazy line.

A friend of mine held a door in Washington for a woman, and she accused him of sexual harassment, and threatened to send him into jail.

And then after that, he met a woman who totally put her baby in the microwave to dry it off! And then they went for a drive down a secluded road, and there was this guy with a hook for a hand who attacked them! This really happened, you guys! Why don’t you believe me?

J U Americans are a bit strange.

It was an Irishman, and I wonder are you Basque, Finnish, or Hungarian?

But, back to the point, Of course people would find it starnge to do this at 4 am, not because of sexual, but personal issues: if I am obviously go to my room for sleep, it would be inappropriate to make this offer, and illogical too, since I am tired, and a tired person is no good conversationalist.

That is precisely the point Rebecca Watson made. An offer at that point in time is innapropriate. Contextually it implies that conversation is not what’s really being offered (he, after all, could have asked her to have coffee in the bar/hotel restaurant).

Question… why do you care? Why bring it up in a dead thread on a blog you’ve never been to before, more than three months after the post was written, and more than a year after the event.

How can someone be so, “self-centered” that she thinks random men might be taking pictures of her? She might have lots of experience of just that. It might also be you don’t understand what was happening (you were in a foreign country; one which almost certainly has a language from a different family to your non indo-european native tongue), and trust me, as a photographer 1: lots of people don’t like having their pictures taken and 2: lots of men do harrass attractive women by taking pictures of them.

So it might not have been self-centered at all.

But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have an opinion about it: it’s silly to hit on somebody this way. That is why if a woman said this to me, I wouldn’t interpret it as a hit on.

You aren’t expressing an opinion on the events, you are telling us the interpretaion of the person who was there is wrong; because you wouldn’t see it as a sexual advance. For some reason you think it’s a completely non-sexual thing to leave a place where coffee is served, and conversation is being had at a late hour of the evening, and invite a person to one’s hotel room… purely for conversation.

And that anyone who sees the possibility of an ulterior motive is clueless about thier own culture

That’s fucking self-centered.

That was just an assumption about the woman who accused me of taking photos of her, when I was obviously not. And when I have convinced her that I wasn’t taking pictures of her, he said I am gay, because of not finding her attractive.

Dude, that story is so inane. Maybe it happened but it’s awfully convenient. She was all pissed because she thought you were taking pictures of her, and then she was all offended that you didn’t think she was hot… so offended she called you gay; and you understood all this when the conversation was in a foreign language.

Forgive me for doubting your credibility.

I don’t have any personal problem related to this

Then why did you re-open the discussion?

Why did you come here to do it?

Why did you try to discredit the observer’s estimation of what happened (both specifically, by saying in a culture different from hers, that wouldn’t be a come-on [which I, personally, find incredible], and secondarily by telling us a story about some woman who misunderstood, you; and and then abused you for not thinking she was hot/wanting to sleep with her)?

Really, what is your purpose here?

It looks to me as if you thought you had a freebie chance to tell us all how wrong you were and failed to pull it off.

dude, i know english isn’t your first language, so i’m just gonna say, yes, lecture was the right word to use there. but that goes to my original point- you’re trying to to explain something to us you concede we have more experience with than you, with is just incredibly arrogant.

J U: I read that link. I don’t see it making it likely that women, in general, will threaten people who hold doors for them. I also see your claim about that as being about, “all women” insofar as it would have to be a significant number for your friends to have randomly encountered it while on brief visits.

Also, nowhere in that piece does it say to be hostile to all men, at all times. It says the system needs to be changed, and that RadFems will have to do the heavy lifting, because others are ignoring the problem.

Is she hostile to men? Yes. But, as you say, that’s one woman… and you can’t generalise all women from a single example, right?

Dude, the guy who hit on her wasn’t an inanimate object, he chose to use specific word and only the most clueless guy would expect any other assumption. Why do you think he wanted to speak to her alone in his room, he wanted to become his best friend? He had questions about sexism he couldn’t asked in front of people? Come on, let’s be realistic.

The main reson for me to come here is because I have read the story a few days ago. It’s totally fresh for me, and that’s how I use the internet. I don’t care if it was 4 or 10 years ago, if I find the story interesting enough (or what it implies), then I comment on it. Last time I didn’t had a comment on a forum for my reply for 1 year.

But your argument wasn’t, “There are some red golfballs”, it was, “this golfball must be red”.

You totally misinterpreted my example, it wasn’t about the elevator, it was for the accusation, that because I tell two awkward ecounters with women, I am suddenly mysognist??? That story was just there to prove that woman are not always right about their intuitions (what one commenter said).

The link was there also to make examples, that yes do exist women who would find holding a door offensive. So I totally believe my buddy. And not the article was important, but the comment section, an example:

“Even if we killed off 90% of men, the majority of women left over would do their best to keep the oppressive system. I’d dare say we’d have to kill off all the women too and leave the little girls and radfems to create the utopia.”

“Men oppress us, so it’s no good getting annoyed at women for raising boys, although I certainly agree that lowering the male population is important, and I’ll never forget those two midwives who killed every boy baby for decades to prevent the warring between the tribes.That is a hopeful, positive story.”

“they flatly deny that there is any such thing as a female-bodied person. even as they are all taking fucking birth control pills (and in the case of transmen, even taking testosterone, which they do not produce enough of on their own for some reason….now why might that be?) could it be that all this denial and willful ignorance about biological femaleness (and maleness) is precisely because the only solution to womens suffering under patriarchy *is* a biological one? that men are biologically, genetically mentally ill, and the only solution to this is a biological solution, and the last thing they want is for us to solve this problem? the problem of them?”

“Let’s assume instead, correctly, that the majority of humanity being female, we are the “norm”. Our biology is the basis of humanity. Now let’s look at what it is in the male sex that drives them to such deviant aggressive behavior as constant war, hierarchies, and strict domination of women. None of these behaviors are adapted to the needs of our modern world. It’s their androgens, to put it simply. It’s not just testosterone, though men have on the average an astounding 14 times the “norm”, that is, the amount women have. What is the “safe” amount of testosterone a human being with an XY genotype can have without causing unacceptable harm to others due to his abnormal aggressiveness caused by this ancient hormonal adaptation to a hunting environment? I won’t go on, but I think it’s a reasonable question, and the answer would indeed lead to a treatment protocol, and then…oh, I know, this isn’t simple, really, but…I think it could easily be established that men are sick with abnormally high levels of aggressive hormones and they can’t run amok like this any longer now that technology can treat this condition.

Oh, and I don’t think this condition even has a name yet. It’s the Great Unspeakable.”

“The Y chromosome is deteriorating ; it is NOT a stable chromosome. It is doomed to failure. Men will eventually become extinct. It is unavoidable.

This is why I believe in parthenogenesis when it comes to the vision of a new world. I believe it has existed for womyn, and it will exist again someday, in a new womyn-only world.

With Mary Sunshine, last summer I managed to download and share two brilliantly interesting papers on human parthenogenesis & womyn’s culture. So I wanted to say as well, if womyn readers here would be interested in reading those two papers on parthenogenesis that I have, please drop me a comment at the bottom of this page here, and I’ll share them via email with you. It’s a very interesting vision.”

“Thank the gods,my wife and i have a daughter and not a son.And with the help of an syringe and not PIV.
Also we had an midwife and not a man and that felt so good really,no men at all.”

“Yes, this is right Maggie, but bonobo males have much better lives than their patriarchal chimpanzee cousins, and female bonobos love their sons.
Because females are ultimately in charge of reproduction (even though they appear to mate freely) they have been selecting the best natured, most intelligent males for eons.”

“Females don’t have to kill baby boys. Just not nurture them. Females are forced to *birth* baby boys, but beyond that a female’s physical actions are her own.

Males will die without the constant infusion of female energy that they get from our wombs and from our lives. They are perfectly welcome to take the male infants from the hands of the midwife, and what they do with it from that point is *their* decision.

Females need to not be emotionally and intellectually invested in a male future.”

“Stop having sex with men. Stop living with men. Stop talking with men. Stop talking about men. Stop organizing for and with men. Stop engaging with men politically. Stop engaging with men personally. Stop engaging with men professionally. Stop voting for males. Stop buying things made by men. Stop selling things to men. Stop having babies until you can get pregnant without a man involved. Stop doing things for men. Stop using services provided by men. Stop raising boys to become men. Stop being friends with men. Stop listening to men. Stop watching men. Stop reading men. Stop listening to, watching, and reading about what men think, say, and do. Stop disseminating what men say and do. Stop believing that continued engagement of any kind with men will bring about the end of male power.”

“hmm. the not raising male children one is difficult one for me as I have one!! I mean, we need female children and I’m so glad I have a daughter. SHe was my first, perhaps I should have stopped at one, but as I was saying on another thread just now I only had my radical reawakening when I was well into my second pregnancy.”

Is she hostile to men? Yes. But, as you say, that’s one woman… and you can’t generalise all women from a single example, right?

That is what I am talking about I am NOT generalizing, I posted these examples to prove that “trust a woman to know when she is being hit on.”, is false. Women not ALWAYS right about their intutition, they could be, but the not always. As I said before it works like prayer. However it is entirely different if a statement comes from a logical conclusion. For example your point about that, he could have just invite her to the bar for a coffee, I admit that.

———————————————

On the elevator story: I came here because I have found, that from this angle, nobody expressed an opinion, and wanted to share mine. If already some 100 folks, have talked about this, then I wouldn’t comment. But because for me it was a “not sure”, I thought I share it, because this whole story seemed to be ridiculous, even more because I was not sure about the thing what initiated the storm.

And I have found Rebecca’s first video alright, it was her later comment, when she said that this was a sexual objectification, and totally offended her, what threw me over the edge. I mean could people drop a toothpick accidentally in your country without offending someone? That other thing about the UK, when they renamed the spotted dick, because it might offend someone, I laughed my ass off.

Then all I get is accusations of mysogny. When I am the actual opposite. It is sad, that people can only see things this way. One different view on the issue, and you can only jump on in emotionally.

And my name is Jaan Uluots, you know the country now?

He asked me why I came here I answered. Maybe if you just repeat, and repeat, and repeat, that I make no sense, and I am a mysognist, it becomes true? I repeat because I ecounter ignorance in every comment, willful ignorance to pervert my point of view, from what it is originally. Yes it is a bit pointless to speak to you people. When you just try to argue as creationists, ignore what I have said, say something that vaguely resembles what I have said, then dismiss that.

Yes it is a bit pointless to speak to you people.

So how about you go somewhere else where people actually want to talk about this story and talk to them?

Dude, your angle was dicussed many a time, in fact, what you’ve had to say so far was predicted based on many other such incidents that commonly happen in womens lives. We are more than a little tired of constantly spoonfeeding people the same information over and over again, only to have those people throw mini tantrums when we tell them that their argument is far from original.

And its not so much that I’ve determined you’re a misogynist as it is that I’ve seen a pattern of problematic thinking and assumptions on your part. All of which have been pointed out to you by several posters.

Also, we aren’t here to “discuss” (read teach feminism 101) we’re here to mock sexist asshats.

If you think there is any kind of emotional response involved on my part (such a mini tauntraum), then you are wrong. Rational people don’t let their emotions cloud their judgement. That is what the problem with this World, and that is what the problem with you too. Noby told me that my argument was far from original, the main reason I posted here (as I said before), because I believed that this was not addressed.

Even though I agreed, that my assumption could be wrong, because of cultural differences. You keep pressing the same rhetoric, not going anywhere. If you would have tried to be reasonable, and not spend your energies on trolling, you may have seemed liked an objective person.

But in reality, this kind of think you people demonstrated here only leads, to events such as the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

Oh, a “you have human feelings ergo you’re wrong” troll. Dude, all of you answers and comments so far, we’ve read them at least a hundred times from other people. I don’t see a drop of originality here.