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So the other day, the atheist blogger Rebecca Watson, aka Skepchick, had this little conversation on Twitter:
Watson, you may recall, got herself onto the Men’s Rights radar a few months back, after a brief comment she made in a podcast — suggesting that perhaps it wasn’t such a good idea for a guy to hit on woman he’s never spoken to before while the two of them are alone in an elevator at 4 AM – somehow turned into a Big Fucking Thing on the Internet, because how dare she say such a thing, it’s creep-shaming, she must hate men, bla bla bla.
So, anyhoo, one Men’s Rights Reddit noticed this little Twitter exchange, and posted it to the Men’s Rights subreddit. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. MRAs hating women? How dare she suggest such a thing!
Here are some of the things that assorted Men’s Rights Redditors posted in response, to remind us all that the Men’s Rights movement isn’t all about shitting on women. Let’s start with this lovely rebuttal, boasting nearly 60 net upvotes:
This comment inspired a long and winding discussion of the word “cunt,” and why it’s like totally ok to use it all the time, because in England the UK people call men “cunts” as well.
Some got a little carried away:
This little exchange came with a side order of irony:
Speaking of fantasy, here’s a strange bit of paranoia, which nonetheless drew upvotes from the very same people who are outraged that Watson was a bit creeped out by a dude she didn’t know asking her to come to his hotel room at 4 AM:
And here’s still more evidence that MRAs, despite their many egregious flaws, do at least have vivid imaginations:
Some other comments, all of which got at least a few upvotes from the MR regulars:
Let’s end with this eloquent plea for people to not give a shit if MRAs hate women:
The folks in the Men’s Rights subreddit are currently debating whether or not to change the subreddit’s slogan, which is currently: “Mens’ Rights: Earning Scorn from Bigoted Feminists and White Knights Since 2008.”
So let me humbly suggest:
Mens’ Rights: Like it’s even relevant if mens rights is anti women in regard to if mens rights is a movement about addressing mens issues.
Or the even punchier:
Men’s Rights: i’m tired of not using the term “cunt”.
MRAs, you’re welcome.
CassandraSays [but nobody listens],
But hey, if some people want to defend to their last breath their right to use slurs that other people find offensive because they want to, dammit, ….
But that you think it is a slur is your own idiosyncratic interpretation which “comprehensive if not authoritative” dictionaries refute.
Actually, now I’m wondering… If dictionary editors are the gold standard for what people mean by the words they use, I wonder what steersman thinks happens when dictionary definitions change? Is there some matrix-style downloading where everyone in the world simultaneously groks the new meaning? Or is it more a 1984 vibe, where “cool” and “sweet” have always referred to the same thing?
Fascinating thought experiment. Tedious troll.
On the issue of the British English excuse for using the C-word, it’s certainly true here in Scotland that it often gets used in a neutral way eg. saying everyc**t or anyc**t instead of everyone/anyone, and in some quarters it’s even used as a compliment – if a Scotsman calls you a good c**t or a sound c**t, he means he thinks you’re a cool guy.
However, there’s no denyng that it is also used with venom and directed a women. I have often heard the same man who refers to his best friend as a sound c**t call a woman he really dislikes the plain ol’ c-word.
Come to think of it, I’ve never actually been referred to as a sound/good c**t by a man and am struggling to recall hearing the phrase ever being directed at a woman. It’s usually used by men and directed at men. Interesting…
Sorry buddy, that word is understood to be a slur by pretty much everyone. That’s exactly why you use it, and wish to continue doing do. From this we are able to conclude several things about you, none of them positive.
Asshole is a gendered insult because…what? Only men have assholes? I think you will soon discover this is untrue if you begin the most cursory investigation of anatomy.
Steersman, even if we buy into your argument that dictionaries are the ultimate authority, which dictionaries should we use? There are a lot of different dictionaries out there. And many of them even note that the word “c*nt” is a derogatory slur against women. What makes your dictionary definition better than any of those?
“Asshole is a gendered insult because…what? Only men have assholes?”
Perhaps this is an extension of the women don’t poop meme. Or, you know, a pathetic attempt at rationalization from an exceptionally boring troll. One or the other.
@Steersman:
Idiosyncratic? I don’t call this idiosyncratic.
Fun thing is, that last one is a link to the merriam-webster definition, which is one of steer’s favorite.
… Is this what they call a dictionary attack? *trollface* 😛
Kirby, did you have coffee with dinner or something? You’re so hyper!
@CassandraSays:
I don’t drink coffee, but I am extremely tired. That’s the same thing as hyper, right?
*checks dictionary*
nope…
kirbywarp,
I’m sure you realize, of course, that slurs are a less-acceptable subset of profanities ..
Again, that you think it is a slur is only your own idiosyncratic interpretation. Which “comprehensive if not authoritative” dictionaries refute. And, in passing, I notice that the Merriam-Webster definition you provided only says “disparaging and obscene: woman”. Still fail to see how it qualifies as “disparaging and obscene comment”. And the Google one only says “a person who is thoroughly disliked” – no indication there as to how it is supposed to apply to all women. Any ideas?
and you’re just playing dumb when you imply that all profanities have the same amount of impact.
As indicated in that New Zealand reference I provided, it is quite true that some profanities have more impact than others. Which is unfortunate but it is largely a consequence of making a big secret out of them, of restricting their use. “F*ck” used to be cause for obscenity charges and it’s practically the case that little kids use it to describe the most innocuous circumstances. The article on profanity has a couple of references to the routines of several comedians – George Carlin and Lenny Bruce – on just that point.
Steersman,
do you get tired of your schtick, hiding behind a conveniently cherry-picked dictionary definition so that when you venomously call women ignorant cunts, you can trot out this pseudo-intellectual bullshit that you were really saying they were ‘a mean or obnoxious person’? Because it isn’t fooling anyone. You’re a misogynist, your own words show it.
(Oh, and feminism isn’t monolithic. Your quote of PZ Myers doesn’t invalidate either feminism, or his critique of elements of it.)
Steersman, would you consider the word “faggot” to be a slur against gay people? Would you consider the word “n*gger” to be a slur against black people?
Most of us would consider those words to be slurs. When you can figure out why we consider those words slurs, then you’ll realize why it is that we consider the word “c*nt” to be a slur against women.
Wow, steer, this is bad even for you. I’ll just have to go out and list them because I have nothing better to do and your point is already refuted. (And someone other than me should probably take a stab at explaining appropriation to you…)
2. offensive. A woman
3a. Offensive Used as a disparaging term for a woman.
2. Disparaging and offensive.
a. a woman
derogatory term for a disliked female; “bitch”.
2. (a contemptuous term used to refer to a woman.)
2. usually disparaging & obscene : woman
So… is your game that if you a word has multiple meanings, then you can pick the one that suits you and pretend the others don’t exist? Or…. what?
@Steersman:
Soo… you look at a dictionary definition… And respond by saying you fail to see how it is the definition, after calling that particular dictionary and others like it the gold standard of what words mean? Come on man, if you’re gonna pretend to be intellectual, the first step is to be consistant!
Shorter Steersman: Sure, it’s a disparaging and offensive term used to demean women, but how does that make it a slur?
Anathema,
Steersman, even if we buy into your argument that dictionaries are the ultimate authority, which dictionaries should we use?
Good question; maybe sort of like the Justices on various Supreme Courts – majority wins.
And many of them even note that the word “c*nt” is a derogatory slur against women.
Of all of the definitions and dictionaries I’ve looked at I have yet to see one that asserts that it is an insult to all women. All that I have seen or recollect clearly specify one person or one woman – most empathically not the whole class. Or maybe you have a link to one that explicitly says otherwise?
What makes your dictionary definition better than any of those?
Generally, I think, that it is the one for which the majority of the dictionaries have similar definitions.
@Steershead:
Shorter Steersman: Sure, it’s a disparaging and offensive term used to demean women, but how does that make it a slur?
No. No. No. The word is an insult to one woman, not all women. If I call some man a “prick” are you going to be offended? To think that whatever criticism calls for if not justifies that use should also apply to you? That’s like thinking that someone saying that some man is a misogynist is to say that all men are. Some serious category errors there I think.
Gee, and I haven’t found a dictionary which clearly and explicitly defines “f*ggot” as an insult to all homosexuals. It just refers to one gay person — not the whole class. And none of them explicitly say that the term “n*gger” is an insult to black people in general. It just refers to one black person — not the whole class.
And if you are going to go by majority rules, Kirby provided a lot more dictionary definitions than you did, and they noted that “c*nt” is a derogatory term used against women.
“But some women really are cunts! Also, I’m just like Lenny Bruce, taking all the sting out of the word by using it to insult women who I dislike.”
So, to be clear, Steer, if you call just one black person a n*gg*r, that’s not a slur, by your argument?
How about calling just one gay person a f*gg*t?
What, in fact, would qualify as a slur?
kirbywarp,
So… is your game that if you a word has multiple meanings, then you can pick the one that suits you and pretend the others don’t exist? Or…. what?
Seems to me that is what is being done by those who are offended when the word is directed at some other person. And they don’t even have any published, printed, meaning that supports their position.