What can you do when you realize that you’re losing the war of ideas? You can rethink some or all of your ideas, seriously considering the unnerving possibility that you might be, well, wrong. You can reconsider how you present your ideas.
Or you can give up on ideas entirely, and attempt to pressure or harass or even terrorize others into some form of surrender. That’s what the the uber-radical Weathermen did in the 1960s and 70s, turning first to violent direct action in the aptly named “days of rage” and then to bombs when the revolution that many in the New Left had been prophesying failed to materialize. That’s what the anti-abortion movement has been doing for decades now, with some in the movement harassing women trying to get abortions while more radical antis bomb clinics and kill doctors. .
And now we’re seeing rhetoric from Men’s Rights Activists that suggests some in that movement may also be giving up on talk. Consider A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam, who declared in a fundraising letter a couple of months back that:
Progress for men will not be gained by debate, reason or typical channels of grievance available to segments of the population that the world actually gives a damn about. The progress we need will only be realized by inflicting enough pain on the agents of hate, in public view, that it literally shocks society out of its current coma.
Elam is – presumably deliberately — vague about what exactly he means when he talks about “inflicting … pain,” and as far as I know he has never explicitly endorsed violence. But he has spoken openly about “stalking” individual feminists and otherwise “fucking their shit up” by, among other things, posting personal information about them on the AVfM-sponsored site Register-Her.com for all would be vigilantes to see. And in the “activism” section of his website he has reprinted a manifesto explicitly calling for the firebombing of courthouses and police stations.
Elam isn’t the only MRA who has officially given up on “debate and reason” in favor of “inflicting … pain” on feminists. The “counter-feminist” wannabe philosopher who calls himself Fidelbogen makes a similar argument in a recent post on his blog:
Feminism is your enemy, and the obligation to treat feminists as fellow human beings is officially waived. They are not fellow human beings, they are ALIENS.
Dehumanizing the enemy always a good start.
[L]et’s not hear any crap about so-called “hate speech”. You see, there is simply no way that you can resist evil, denounce tyranny, or call pernicious things by their right names, without crossing a fine line into “hate speech” or something very like it. Extremism against a bully is no vice, and since bullies have their own moral economy, you are entitled to pay them in their own coin.
It’s not hate speech if you really do hate them?
The important thing to understand about the feminists is, that they will not change their outward behavior unless social heat and pressure are inflicted upon them.
Fidelbogen, a sometime contributor to A Voice for Men, is also vague about what exactly he means by this “social heat and pressure.” He continues:
What, do you think they will stop what they are doing just because somebody intellectually convinces them they are mistaken? They will do no such thing, because they are people with an agenda who know they are “right”, and they lack the gift to see themselves as the rest of the world sees them.
IRONY ALERT. IRONY ALERT.
Over on Reddit, meanwhile, the charming JeremiahMRA – who used to post comments here as Things Are Bad – thinks the “inflict pain” policy should be extended to all women, any time they engage in “bad behavior.” Responding to a poster asking how to handle a disagreement with his mother, he explained his theory in (sometimes redundant) detail, receiving several dozen net upvotes for his post:
The ONLY way you change women’s bad behavior is by punishing them if they won’t start acting like adults. …
The only way you change a woman’s bad behavior is by making sure they know it hurts them. …
Reasoning with her will not work. The only answer is to use the power he has as her SON to threaten to hurt her emotionally. Women are emotional creatures. Nothing else will work. This is what it means to be a man: you do what you have to do so that things will be better in the end, even if you don’t like it. …
It isn’t about convincing her what’s right, it’s about showing her she will suffer if she doesn’t do what’s right. That is the only thing that will work.
The Men’s Rights Movement likes to pretend that is it a civil rights movement. But threats, harassment, hate speech, and emotional blackmail aren’t the tactics of a legitimate civil rights movement. These are the tactics of angry narcissists clinging to retrograde prejudices, who have given up on the war of ideas because on some level they know that history is against them, and that they will never win.
yoyo, that post from vox is heinous; I’ll have to do a post about it. (Though I might want to do something a bit lighter first. Yow.)
cloudiah, yeah, my kitty seems to be doing a bit better. It’s been a struggle to get her to eat anything — I basically have been putting out food from five or six different cans of cat food in installments every day, hoping that she’ll eat some of the food from some of the plates. And it’s been a little bit of a struggle to sneak her pills into treats. (Hint: Cats LOVE fried chicken skin.) But today her appetite seems to have improved a good deal.
Mags, MRAs are ineffective at political and social activism, and ineffective at actually helping people. They seem to be a lot better at harassment. Small groups of hateful people who seem to think the only way to win is to cause their enemies pain can cause a good deal of harm.
Also! Twitter just ruined The Walking Dead for me! I’m so darn mad I’d blame MRAs for it! >.<
…and yet David, you have a whole f*cking website and spend an inordinate amount of your life talking about them…
@Mags
MRAs will often claim that feminists are stupid, illogical, overly emotional cunts and literally incapable people, yet they still believe we’re destroying society and have infiltrated every single organization, institution and form of government.
So why do they spend so much time obsessing over people who are apparently so worthless?
“…and yet David, you have a whole f*cking website and spend an inordinate amount of your life talking about them…”
Like MRAs on feminists! It’s a vicious cycle!
MRA’s know the power of the feminist movement. No serious MRA think feminists are dumb. They think they are fundamentally dishonest, that they advocate for one demographic no matter what the equities, and that they use under handed methods such as advocacy research and indocutrination in schools…but, most MRA’s are actually in awe of how a corrupt and abjectly unfair pro-women policies get past and continue despite the basic unfairness.
Mags, we’re not obsessing, we’re mocking. BTW, it’s “gnashing.” You’re welcome.
naw hellkell, yer purty much obsessing
The way I see it, David is doing internet denizens a service…exposing a hateful movement for what it is
I think that men do face some discrimination in society and there are men who will want to change it, so if they stumble upon and MRA site thinking it will offer solutions and be greeted with a bunch of angry dudes screaming about feminists and holding open doors, I’d imagine that would be discouraging. However if they come across Manboobz first they’ve already been warned lol
I’m so glad you kitty is feeling better, David!
And you’re pretty much trollin’, Mags.
*your, of course.
I think Mags has somehow managed to miss eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery single post David has made.
Especially those that quote people saying that women are children, incompetent,and stupid.
“The Men’s Rights Movement likes to pretend that is it a civil rights movement. But threats, harassment, hate speech, and emotional blackmail aren’t the tactics of a legitimate civil rights movement. These are the tactics of angry narcissists clinging to retrograde prejudices, who have given up on the war of ideas because on some level they know that history is against them, and that they will never win.”
De-lurking briefly to say that this is the best description of the Men’s Rights “Movement” ever. I love this site!
@Mags
Yeah…you’d think then that maybe they’d realize that maybe…just maybe…feminists aren’t as corrupt as they think they are.
Wow 1 in 4 women aren’t actually raped….its more like 1 in 5 now according to the NISVS…biggg difference!
And wtf…indoctrination in schools? what schools? a gender studies course? most people do not choose gender studies, give me a break. I don’t even remember how I came across feminism but I can assure you it wasn’t in a school.
The focus on feminism is often misplaced and lacking in specificity.
Second wave feminists were pretty instrumental in passing some of the unjust legislation and policies that now disadvantage males, but feminism is not a monolith and most of men’s issues have arisen quite independently of feminism.
3rd wave feminists are genuinely interested in real equality, and generally don’t subscribe to the racism, classism, transphobia, and misandry of the second wave.
Quackers, I believe it has something to do with a few posters to tell boys to not hit girls.
Which is totally above the pale, I mean how can we tell boys that hitting girls is wrong? They might actually start treating women with respect and how is that going to help come the revolution where all women are “taken away.”
/sarcasm with some snarly bits.
Everytime Mags posts she always manages to overlook the complete douchebaggery in the shit David quotes. So yeah, she must be trolling. Which reminds me why I never really respond to her in the first place.
I guess I’m just really bored tonight.
@PFKAE
Yeah and apparently “don’t hit girls” is also doublespeak for “girls should hit boys”
Right. I don’t know about you but I was pretty much taught not to..you know…hit anyone -_-
Oh and if we tell boys not to hit other boys and critique violent media then we’re just feeemmmminizing society…wahhhh!!!
“But threats, harassment, hate speech, and emotional blackmail aren’t the tactics of a legitimate civil rights movement.”
Nevermind the fact that all the “legitimate” civil rights movements of the past had elements that engaged in these tactics.
Or are you not aware that feminists in 1960’s Britain frequently engaged in acts of vandalism and death threats?
Yay, kitty!
I was taught the same thing.
Apparently wanting to end violence is bad because it means all men suddenly are women. *rolls eyes*
This is off-topic, but:
An acquaintance just made a friendslocked post about how he just received a book on “Mystery Method” Game and he’s excited to try it out. I know this guy from about eight years ago, so we’re not super close friends, but lately he’s been going through some depression and I’m one of the people who helped convince him to get into therapy, etc. We got coffee in December, and caught up some. I know that loneliness is a big hangup for him (he speaks of it as almost the sole cause of his depression), and I do think that a bit more success at making meatspace friends/lovers would be good for him. But, ugh, Game.
Can any of you point me towards a gentle, concise blog post or such that I can link him to, to explain just what he needs to be wary of, and why he needs to take the advice in the book with a huge grain of salt? He’s still kind of immature/conservative, so I worry that just, say, linking all of Holly’s blog (or Manboobz) would overwhelm him. Also, I remember seeing some feminist-friendly pickup blogs around (the kind that genuinely focus on self-confidence and consent), but I can’t remember the names — any ideas? Thanks in advance!
@ Quackers
I think what they’re objecting to about the “Don’t hit girls” admonishment is the sex specificity of it. The implication is that hitting girls is somehow worse than hitting boys. When really the rule should be: “Don’t hit anyone.”