BTW, I agree with Dani Alexis. Fighting enemies is one thing, being up against people who believe they’re being good allies is so much worse: when that can pass for anti-sexism (I don’t how if the guy identify as a feminist) it set the bar a little lower for honest-to-god-real-certified-racism.
hellkell
12 years ago
Oh, Jesus. Thirding the “with allies like this” sentiment.
And, if he stops in tonight, we will witness the mind-bending phenomenon of NWO slave defending Michael Moore against the evil feminists. You heard it here first.
QuantumSparkle
12 years ago
So, Moore decided to insult Rush Limbaugh for using sexist slurs by… using more sexist slurs.
Wow, Moore’s a *genius*! I’m just *SOOOO* glad he’s on our side!!! Sort of! Yay!
sarcasms
I cannot eyeroll-sigh hard enough.
Hippodameia
12 years ago
To paraphrase something a critic once said about Sylvester Stallone, we have seen the limits of Michael Moore’s social justice commitment and the vast horizons of his privilege.
Astazha
12 years ago
Or more to the point: I’m a woman, happily so and I know plenty who are. Should it be ok to insult men with “you’re a woman”-type insults? (as in ‘bitch’)
I was struggling with this question myself. Bitch is obviously an offensive usage, and that’s where some of it’s impact comes from. Part of male identity is being not-feminine, and it’s common for men to attack each other’s masculinity like this. Nancy, pansy, pussy, bitch, etc. There’s a current of misogyny to it, but the notion of entirely abandoning this creates a lot of confusion in my mind. I’m not going to expand that because I think it will be incoherent.
I think saying that something “sucks” or “blows” has the same origin. I haven’t looked up the etymology, but I imagine these are contractions of “sucks dick”, and are derogatory because they imply femininity or homosexuality. That said, if someone told me to stop saying “sucks” because it had misogynistic origins, that would sound oversensitive to me. For me personally the goal is to get the big issues right, and not to be as PC as possible.
I’m hoping that the Men’s Movement will provide greater clarity for me on matters of positive gender identity. I’m actually pretty lost on what it means to be positively masculine.
@Hippodameia- Wow, that is awesome. Can I hold onto that for future reference?
@Astazha- Here’s the rule of thumb that I generally use. If I use an insult in a space that I didn’t know of the bigoted implications and someone tells me that it offended them, I don’t argue, and I don’t use that insult around them any more. If someone is an ally, it’s important to not insult them, and it provides a great opportunity for a creative workaround in one’s language.
Note just to be clear: if I know the bigoted implications and use it anyway, that is a jerk move.
Xardoz
12 years ago
Michael Moore: unintentionally helping Republicans since the 90s. 🙁 Seriously, I’ve heard people say they wouldn’t have voted for GWB if it wasn’t for Moore’s documentaries “pissing them off.” I still think they’re stupid, but I sort-of kind-of know where they’re coming from now.
Can we get rid of Mags just for her desire to come in and declare “First!” in the comments? I mean for serious. Good for you honey, I’m so glad you can be the first person who comments in a thread. Do you have anything to say? What? You never do? You just declare yourself to be a woman-hater and MRA supporter with nothing to say? And honestly your “first!” posts are the most informative ones you have. It’s so tiresome.
Sorry, most endearing and most informative. So many sides!
Quackers
12 years ago
@Astazha
Nothing worse than being like an inferior woman right? and I know I define my female identity by not being like a violent, perverted man!
/sarcasm
Quackers
12 years ago
@Astazah
and yeah, way to disregard all the femme men out there like DSC mentioned. What a misandrist you are.
CassandraSays
12 years ago
Sigh. Those are the words of a man who knows that in theory sexism is bad, but doesn’t actually understand why.
evilwhitemalempire
12 years ago
must be nice having so much power that you can actually afford to burn an utterly devoted sycophant for less than ideal support
Kyrie
12 years ago
EWME, I’m pretty sure we haven’t “burnt” him. Moore’s career won’t be destroyed by this tweet, I’m pretty sure of it. Even if it was, it would certainly be not because of MB. Anyway calling someone (especially allies) on their sexism or wathever-ism is good for them, it’s a chance for them (and people who look up to them) to change and get better.
But yeah, you’re right. It is nice to be able to hold your allies to high standard. Don’t be too jealous. 🙂
Shadow
12 years ago
must be nice having so much power that you can actually afford to burn an utterly devoted sycophant for less than ideal support
Must be sad to belong to a movement so lacking in convictions that it’ll take anyone that kinda agrees with them
Shadow
12 years ago
To be fair, Astazah’s post reads to me as someone who gets that it’s problematic to ID masculine as not-feminine, but is unsure where that leaves him. At least that’s what I got from reading:
Part of male identity is being not-feminine, and it’s common for men to attack each other’s masculinity like this. Nancy, pansy, pussy, bitch, etc. There’s a current of misogyny to it, but the notion of entirely abandoning this creates a lot of confusion in my mind
and
I’m hoping that the Men’s Movement will provide greater clarity for me on matters of positive gender identity. I’m actually pretty lost on what it means to be positively masculine.
Hopefully I’m not just being optimistic, despite the dog whistle of
and not to be as PC as possible.
Xardoz
12 years ago
Ha, because “sort-of kind-of” knowing where rabid Moore haters are coming from is the same as throwing him under the bus. I also didn’t like when he creatively edited clips, but that was a long time ago.
Politicians and celebrities all need their hands held on twitter, and you have to be on your best behavior when you’re up against well-funded right-wing think tanks and talking heads. I hope Moore learns a lesson from this.
Viscaria
12 years ago
Must be sad to belong to a movement so lacking in convictions that it’ll take anyone that kinda agrees with them
Quoted for truth and general all-around awesomeness.
@Xardoz- You think he would have learned after the Moore and Me debacle. (for the background on that click below) I thought that he did learn. But apparently not.
This seems like a thoughtful community with a pretty high level of discussion. I’m here to interact, to discuss, and to learn. I was raised in a pretty destructive environment that included sexism and misogyny, among other distortions. Understanding feminism in a thorough and balanced way has been a lifelong struggle for me, and my participation here is part of that personal journey. I’m wrong about some stuff, and I have some prejudices going in that I have not yet worked through; I know this going in. When I use language of uncertainty, as I’ve done in that post, I’m indicating a place where I’m open to new ideas and better understanding. I understand that manboobz isn’t here for my personal education; on a site with the stated purpose of mocking misogyny, some of you are just going to do that and move on. All the same, I invite deeper discussion from anyone who is willing to entertain it, and hope to further my understanding and ultimately reach a place where all of my thoughts, ideas, and feelings about gender are self-consistent and fair.
@CassandraSays: I would describe my reasons for believing sexism is bad as the following: All human beings have the right to self determine, to self realize. The gems of human experience (hope, respect, opportunity, appreciation, and more) should be available to us all. Sexism, like all “isms”, restricts a group from accessing the fullness of what human experience can be. Patriarchy specifically disempowers women, makes them dependent on and subservient to men. This is obviously destructive to women, and to heterosexual relationships, but less obviously has destructive impacts on men, too. What would you amend or add to that?
@darksidecat and @Quackers: How would you describe and differentiate femininity and masculinity, or what resources would you suggest on the topic?
@Quackers: I don’t have issue with a femme man, which if I understand the term correctly is a man who identifies as feminine (but not necessarily gay). I sometimes switch into this myself, possibly because the pressure of being masculine in a traditional fashion can be too much and I have not yet come to an understanding of what a newer, healthier masculinity would mean. I also don’t think that the feminine is inferior to the masculine, just that there is some exclusivity (as well as overlap) to the terms. To say that something is dark is to say that it is not light. The speaker might prefer one over the other, but doesn’t have to. The gender binary is too simple, but I don’t have a better model in my head except perhaps a spectrum. If we think of masculine & feminine as, instead of two sides of coin, two facets on a diamond, it would still seem apparent to me that they are opposite facets. Thoughts?
We Hunted The Mammoth
BTW, I agree with Dani Alexis. Fighting enemies is one thing, being up against people who believe they’re being good allies is so much worse: when that can pass for anti-sexism (I don’t how if the guy identify as a feminist) it set the bar a little lower for honest-to-god-real-certified-racism.
Oh, Jesus. Thirding the “with allies like this” sentiment.
Chapter 863 billion in the saga of “Intent, it’s not fucking magic.”
And, if he stops in tonight, we will witness the mind-bending phenomenon of NWO slave defending Michael Moore against the evil feminists. You heard it here first.
So, Moore decided to insult Rush Limbaugh for using sexist slurs by… using more sexist slurs.
Wow, Moore’s a *genius*! I’m just *SOOOO* glad he’s on our side!!! Sort of! Yay!
sarcasms
I cannot eyeroll-sigh hard enough.
To paraphrase something a critic once said about Sylvester Stallone, we have seen the limits of Michael Moore’s social justice commitment and the vast horizons of his privilege.
I was struggling with this question myself. Bitch is obviously an offensive usage, and that’s where some of it’s impact comes from. Part of male identity is being not-feminine, and it’s common for men to attack each other’s masculinity like this. Nancy, pansy, pussy, bitch, etc. There’s a current of misogyny to it, but the notion of entirely abandoning this creates a lot of confusion in my mind. I’m not going to expand that because I think it will be incoherent.
I think saying that something “sucks” or “blows” has the same origin. I haven’t looked up the etymology, but I imagine these are contractions of “sucks dick”, and are derogatory because they imply femininity or homosexuality. That said, if someone told me to stop saying “sucks” because it had misogynistic origins, that would sound oversensitive to me. For me personally the goal is to get the big issues right, and not to be as PC as possible.
I’m hoping that the Men’s Movement will provide greater clarity for me on matters of positive gender identity. I’m actually pretty lost on what it means to be positively masculine.
@Hippodameia- Wow, that is awesome. Can I hold onto that for future reference?
@Astazha- Here’s the rule of thumb that I generally use. If I use an insult in a space that I didn’t know of the bigoted implications and someone tells me that it offended them, I don’t argue, and I don’t use that insult around them any more. If someone is an ally, it’s important to not insult them, and it provides a great opportunity for a creative workaround in one’s language.
Note just to be clear: if I know the bigoted implications and use it anyway, that is a jerk move.
Michael Moore: unintentionally helping Republicans since the 90s. 🙁 Seriously, I’ve heard people say they wouldn’t have voted for GWB if it wasn’t for Moore’s documentaries “pissing them off.” I still think they’re stupid, but I sort-of kind-of know where they’re coming from now.
Can we get rid of Mags just for her desire to come in and declare “First!” in the comments? I mean for serious. Good for you honey, I’m so glad you can be the first person who comments in a thread. Do you have anything to say? What? You never do? You just declare yourself to be a woman-hater and MRA supporter with nothing to say? And honestly your “first!” posts are the most informative ones you have. It’s so tiresome.
Actually, Mags posting “first” is her most endearing feature. Perhaps her only one.
Way to deliver an attack on the identities of all femme men as part of your apologism for sexism against women. Bravo on that one. e_e
Sorry, most endearing and most informative. So many sides!
@Astazha
Nothing worse than being like an inferior woman right? and I know I define my female identity by not being like a violent, perverted man!
/sarcasm
@Astazah
and yeah, way to disregard all the femme men out there like DSC mentioned. What a misandrist you are.
Sigh. Those are the words of a man who knows that in theory sexism is bad, but doesn’t actually understand why.
must be nice having so much power that you can actually afford to burn an utterly devoted sycophant for less than ideal support
EWME, I’m pretty sure we haven’t “burnt” him. Moore’s career won’t be destroyed by this tweet, I’m pretty sure of it. Even if it was, it would certainly be not because of MB. Anyway calling someone (especially allies) on their sexism or wathever-ism is good for them, it’s a chance for them (and people who look up to them) to change and get better.
But yeah, you’re right. It is nice to be able to hold your allies to high standard. Don’t be too jealous. 🙂
Must be sad to belong to a movement so lacking in convictions that it’ll take anyone that kinda agrees with them
To be fair, Astazah’s post reads to me as someone who gets that it’s problematic to ID masculine as not-feminine, but is unsure where that leaves him. At least that’s what I got from reading:
and
Hopefully I’m not just being optimistic, despite the dog whistle of
Ha, because “sort-of kind-of” knowing where rabid Moore haters are coming from is the same as throwing him under the bus. I also didn’t like when he creatively edited clips, but that was a long time ago.
Politicians and celebrities all need their hands held on twitter, and you have to be on your best behavior when you’re up against well-funded right-wing think tanks and talking heads. I hope Moore learns a lesson from this.
Quoted for truth and general all-around awesomeness.
@Xardoz- You think he would have learned after the Moore and Me debacle. (for the background on that click below) I thought that he did learn. But apparently not.
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/12/15/mooreandme-on-dude-progressives-rape-apologism-and-the-little-guy/
This seems like a thoughtful community with a pretty high level of discussion. I’m here to interact, to discuss, and to learn. I was raised in a pretty destructive environment that included sexism and misogyny, among other distortions. Understanding feminism in a thorough and balanced way has been a lifelong struggle for me, and my participation here is part of that personal journey. I’m wrong about some stuff, and I have some prejudices going in that I have not yet worked through; I know this going in. When I use language of uncertainty, as I’ve done in that post, I’m indicating a place where I’m open to new ideas and better understanding. I understand that manboobz isn’t here for my personal education; on a site with the stated purpose of mocking misogyny, some of you are just going to do that and move on. All the same, I invite deeper discussion from anyone who is willing to entertain it, and hope to further my understanding and ultimately reach a place where all of my thoughts, ideas, and feelings about gender are self-consistent and fair.
@CassandraSays: I would describe my reasons for believing sexism is bad as the following: All human beings have the right to self determine, to self realize. The gems of human experience (hope, respect, opportunity, appreciation, and more) should be available to us all. Sexism, like all “isms”, restricts a group from accessing the fullness of what human experience can be. Patriarchy specifically disempowers women, makes them dependent on and subservient to men. This is obviously destructive to women, and to heterosexual relationships, but less obviously has destructive impacts on men, too. What would you amend or add to that?
@darksidecat and @Quackers: How would you describe and differentiate femininity and masculinity, or what resources would you suggest on the topic?
@Quackers: I don’t have issue with a femme man, which if I understand the term correctly is a man who identifies as feminine (but not necessarily gay). I sometimes switch into this myself, possibly because the pressure of being masculine in a traditional fashion can be too much and I have not yet come to an understanding of what a newer, healthier masculinity would mean. I also don’t think that the feminine is inferior to the masculine, just that there is some exclusivity (as well as overlap) to the terms. To say that something is dark is to say that it is not light. The speaker might prefer one over the other, but doesn’t have to. The gender binary is too simple, but I don’t have a better model in my head except perhaps a spectrum. If we think of masculine & feminine as, instead of two sides of coin, two facets on a diamond, it would still seem apparent to me that they are opposite facets. Thoughts?