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Your penis, your choice — not your responsibility!

Ladies use these to extract money from helpless men.

When men and women have consensual sex, who is responsible? If you said “both, because they both agreed to and participated in it,” you might be some sort of misandrist feminazi. Because, as W.F. Price explains in a recent Spearhead post, it’s really women who are responsible for consensual heterosexual sex.

If you’re wondering how that could be, well, keep reading. Price starts off by considering what he calls “the feminist claims of mass rape throughout society.”

If as many rapes happen as they claim, chances are someone on your street has been raped recently. There must be multiple simultaneous rapes occurring at any given time within your zip code. Can you hear the silence screaming around you? (this is probably what goes through the minds of feminists).

Why yes, Mr. Price, chances are that someone on my street has been raped recently. Indeed, I know numerous women who have been raped. I’m guessing most women don’t share the intensely personal fact that they’ve been raped with you, Mr. Price, because you’re the sort of person who likes to go around talking dismissively about “the feminist claims of mass rape throughout society.”

Let’s continue:

Anyway, the point is that if men are so irrepressibly prone to rape and so sexually voracious, and women so prone to being unwilling, then who really is most responsible when consensual sex does happen?

Well, that’s an interesting approach to logic: snidely dismiss the fact that rape is common, then go ahead and assume it’s true for the sake of the rest of your argument:

One of the most sacred and cherished rights of feminists is the right to say “no” — that is, the right to deny sex. Do men value the ability to deny sex as much as women? Perhaps when it comes to forced sodomy, but that isn’t a common issue. One rarely sees men marching down the street with placards declaring that “NO MEANS NO,” and when they do, they are generally just holding signs for women. So, if women actually like denying sex, and are more likely to exercise that power, who has more choice when it comes to whether or not a given sex act will occur?

I cannot help but marvel at the twisted logic here. Women want the right to say no to sex they do not want to have. But getting this “no” to be taken seriously is such a problem that some women organize actual protests in the streets to declare that “no means no,” and this means that … they are the ones responsible for sex.

And if women are more responsible for sex than the men they have sex with, just who should bear the responsibility for the pregnancies that sometimes follow? I think you see where Price is going here, but let’s let him spell it out:

Let’s break it down:

    Men have a higher sex drive than women

    Men have less control over their sexual impulses

    Women value the ability to deny sex

    Women are far more likely and able to deny sex than men

If the above are true, then barring outright rape, surely women are more to blame for pregnancy than men. So why does the law treat males and females as equal participants in the sex act, and why does policy hold the man to be more responsible? Clearly, the female has more control.

Since women sometimes say no to sex, they should bear all the costs of raising children?

It’s the strangest evo-psych argument I’ve seen so far: Since men are hardwired to be horndog sex-havers, they shouldn’t have to take responsibility for the consequences of this sexual activity, at least when it comes to contributing something to support the children that sometimes show up about nine months later. Ladies: think of the poor men, at the mercy of their boners! How dare you expect that they pay their share of the costs of raising a child?

In Price’s mind, child support is not only unfair to poor horndog men, it’s  a cancer destroying civilization as we know it:

There’s been a lot of hand-wringing over the disintegration of the American family and marriage, but few people dare to point out the obvious reason America is fast becoming a nation of bastards. It’s actually fairly clear: women are not being held to the appropriate level of responsibility where their sexual choices are concerned. In the old days, it was understood that, barring rape, women were more responsible for who they slept with than men, and if they screwed up they had to deal with it. This is why the rate of illegitimacy was so low for so long. However, today, women can get pregnant and receive guaranteed support from not only the government, but whatever random man they permitted to have sex with them.

Raising a child as a single mom is apparently the easiest thing in the world. But making men pay for a portion of the costs for this child is tyranny!

Holding men more responsible than women for sex has been an abysmal failure, yet the policy remains in place despite thousands of years of received wisdom that lets us know it is a bad idea. Holding men and women equally responsible would be inappropriate as well, but we’ve gone past even that. Without some change in policy soon, the majority of all births in the United States will be illegitimate in a decade or so. The current system, which absolves women of responsibility for a choice that is largely in their hands, and for which they have even more options and tools at their disposal to deal with the consequences than ever, is unsustainable.

Despite his own handwringing about the state of The Family, Price doesn’t’ spell out how married men fit into his sex-responsibility equation. Are married men considered as responsible for babies as their wives? Is this responsibility retroactively nullified if they get divorced? It’s all very complicated. Which is, I guess, inevitable, once you arbitrarily decide that two consenting adults who have sex with one another are somehow not equally responsible for this sex.

Naturally, the Spearhead peanut gallery provided many more nuggets of wisdom. WGMOW – apparently a woman herself – gave Price’s bizarre argument a big ditto:

I don’t even see anthing debatable here. It is entirely the females who make the decision when and where to get knocked up, and then get child support from a man with the means to provide her with a bank account and credit cards seemingly for life. It there is no such man available she gets handouts from Big Daddy Government in the form of welfare, Sec 8 housing, free utilities, food stamps, free health care, free college education, and in some states, even a car.

These are the females that feminists say are “strong, powerful, and smart.” Bullshit. They are just as dependant as the females of the Victorian age. Then, they went from the care of their fathers into the care of their husbands. Now, they go from the care of their welfare mothers into the care of the government. All courtesy of our tax dollars.

AfOR put it even more bluntly:

The law fucks men over because they can be made to bleed more than a wimminz, they make better hosts for the parasites of society than wimminz.

Who exactly are the parasites here? The babies?

Hf seemed annoyed that women are allowed any autonomy at all:

Women typically struggle with knowing what exactly it is that they want. The “No Means No” movement is just as much trying to convince themselves and each other as it is trying to convince men. Deception is very much a part of a woman’s autonomy.

Nehalem provided a new slogan for the no-male-responsibility-for-sex-or-babies movement:

To get the point across more easily I suggest we modify a common liberal slogan and say:

Her body, her choice, her responsibility.

This being The Spearhead, it sort of goes without saying that each of these comments got dozens of upvotes.

Apparently, then, the only responsible course of action for unmarried women today is to never ever have sex with men. No sex, no consequences, no responsibilities to share with force upon men! But somehow I suspect that the MRAs of the world wouldn’t be happy with this solution.

 

 

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BigMomma
BigMomma
9 years ago

he (MRAL) said on there that he had only visited AVFM for the first time last week…that doesn’t seem right to me…has he cited Paul before? was that an out and out lie? i honestly don’t know

BigMomma
BigMomma
9 years ago

ah, wetherby, you and me both

BigMomma
BigMomma
9 years ago

it’s late-ish here in Oz, i’ve had a glass of wine so the old grey cells weren’t retrieving accurate information but MRAL’s claim seemed decidedly suspect. Final nail in his coffin as far as i am concerned, although i know others with longer experience of him got there waaaay before me

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

BigMomma: he was lying. In his “I’m sorry I trolled, I’ll be good now” phase (followed by “I’m not trolling you entitled fucking pampered princess bitch” phase, then the “why do you keep banning all my alias???” phase) he admitted than MRAs were morons, and named Elam in the process. (I don’t remember the context)

I can’t find it on manboobz, but here it is on NSWATM:

Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant says:
January 4, 2012 at 6:50 pm

I don’t know, I think Futrelle is pretty funny. Most of the MRAs are fucking idiots, you really can’t deny that. This is unfortunate because I really want to side with them when it comes to Schwyzer, but seriously… people like Elam, or whatever, are just an embarrassment.

So liar liar, pants on fire.

Seoul Sister
Seoul Sister
9 years ago

I don’t pretend to know who MRAL is or isn’t, but that dude was pretty obviously mocking MRA stuff right from the start. Like, not even subtly? But it seems like more people missed it than got it.

BigMomma
BigMomma
9 years ago

thanks Kyrie, i knew the evidence of his lying was out there.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

That’s the danger and the beauty of Internet: it’s very hard to disappear.

ithiliana
9 years ago

@Wetherby: Thanks for the links — that was beautiful.

And geez, people here really were nice to MRALTroll! And I notice he didn’t dare break out the “I am short and ugly and women spit on me” at PZ’s site (I did notice the “I have been a victim of gendered violence but don’t bring it up terrible as it was in this discussion of systemic misandry” (which nobody there bought either). Gendered violence==imaginary spitting ?

QuantumSparkle
QuantumSparkle
9 years ago

Wait, Irene Meller really WAS a Mellertron sock??? I…. A-HAHAHAH!!! *wipes away laughter-tears*.

I really thought that was Ami mocking Meller in the most awesome and hilarious way possible. In fact, I’m still going to believe that. Because there is a limit to how pathetic I think a person can be, and Meller had already maxed out my pathetic-o-meter well before the sock attempt. I guess I need to recalibrate the pathetic-o-meter to account for Meller. Again. Although in good news, the new recalibrated scale will give me a more accurate measurements for mral, who is also a profound loser.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

“Irene” really was Mellers sock??

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

I STILL get the giggles over the “do only flesh covered children count?”

So like what, he also has cabbage patch kids?

Christ, Meller come back! You sooo funny and I need a good laugh!!

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

I can only believe that MRAL started going against Elam and MRAs to gain points with us, otherwise why would he associate a brand new account with them? He’s just an exercise in the frustration of anonymity and someone unconcerned with honesty.

Ponkz
Ponkz
9 years ago

@ithiliana – Yeah! I saw the “I have been a victim of gendered violence” comment, immediately rolled my eyes and thought “Oh, is he going to crack out a story about getting spat on?”

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

It sound just about true as him being a poor factory worker with a limp. I mean, it could be true, but:
– it’s so unspecific it look like he wanted pity without bothering imagining a story, especially one on which he could be asked details.
– he lied. Many time. (see above for a recent example)
– he told us so much about his life and the reason it sucks that I have a hard he left out something big.

Other possibility: he told us once that he used to be bullied by a girl in school (which, troll or not, sucks a lot) and was sure that if he was a she, people would have stopped the bullying. Many women, inclunding me, answered him that they had lived similar situations (from boys or girls) without receiving any help. He never answered that, without surprise.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Is my memory wrong or did he stole Arks’ avatar?

Wetherby
Wetherby
9 years ago

No, that’s MRAL’s. Which is the clincher, though it was pretty obviously him anyway.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

belledame222 :
I’m still freaked out about the whole business where Meller played along with “Irene.” I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO THINK ANYMORE *sob*

QuantumSparkle:
Wait, Irene Meller really WAS a Mellertron sock??? I…. A-HAHAHAH!!! *wipes away laughter-tears*.

I don’t think Irenen was Meller’s sock, but he did played along with the story.

David K. Meller | January 30, 2012 at 1:34 pm

I agree!! If EVAN is unhappy, then by all means, a change of owners–or an independent existence–is necessary. I do prefer little lady lovelies to modern women or feminists, but that is only my preference, and I have no wish to inflict it upon others unnecessarily!

I hope that EVAN finds a nice home with all deliberate speed. If you want to help EVAN here on manboobz.com, go ahead! You have my blessing!

http://manboobz.forummotion.com/t724-the-epic-of-evan

After that, Evan disappeared. 🙁

Xanthe
Xanthe
9 years ago

That avatar of MRAL’s has been used when he’s linked to his Crimson Dog blog (yes, he has a blog), so David could drop PZ a line to confirm what e-mail “matriarchy” is posting under (Pharyngula currently doesn’t allow hit and run posting; you have to set up an account using a valid e-mail and login).

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Yes, but what for? He made the effort of hiding his IP, creating a new address is so much easier and quicker. Fortunately, hiding his personnality, obcessions and the subjects that make him angry is not as easy.
Sockpuppeting is harder once people know you. Also, he has no self-control.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

My favorite part about MRAL’s sockpuppetry is that “Nathan” went on and on about he didn’t know MRAL well, but he’d seen a few of MRAL’s post and had decided MRAL seemed like a pretty cool dude.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

My favorite part about MRAL’s sockpuppetry is how irrelevant it really is.

If someone says nice and helpful things, we’ll like them no matter what their name is. If someone says creepy and gross and aggressive things, we’ll dislike them no matter what their name is.

The game of “I’ll come in and say gross creepy things with another name!” is thus doomed to fail forever, and a huge waste of time to play.

cloudiah
cloudiah
9 years ago

My favorite response to MRAL on Pharyngula:
” You’re the most oblivious douche I’ve met on Pharyngula in, like, months.
Please impale yourself on a rotting porcupine.”

pillowinhell
9 years ago

Weird..just got an email for a posting here by Seoul Sister…essentially goes: MrAL is a cool dude, no one here understands how he mocks MRAs.

Shorter SS: everyone here is an idiot- except me.

Not sure why that post isn’t showing up here though.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I mean, really, the best Mesogog could hope for is to convince us he was a different asshole.

Is that really such a win?

red_locker
9 years ago

…how the hell did we go from men like me being an uncontrollable, slavering beast with a penis to (possibly) another sockpuppet attempt?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

If Seoul Sister is MRAL, he’s the Matryoshka doll of trolls and sockpuppets.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

The first post of Seoul Sister is to talk how she know all of MRAL history and that he’s a good guy? 0_o

Either Mr. Al is getting worse and worse or he managed to make us paranoid.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I don’t pretend to know who MRAL is or isn’t, but that dude was pretty obviously mocking MRA stuff right from the start. Like, not even subtly? But it seems like more people missed it than got it.

Okay, either Seoul Sister is MRAL or she doesn’t know who he is.

…It’s sort of weird those are the only two options.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

Maybe we’re all figments of MRAL’s imagination.

QuantumSparkle
QuantumSparkle
9 years ago

Irene: definitely NOT Meller.

Ah. Most excellent performance art, then. Bravo!!

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

I don’t pretend to know who MRAL is or isn’t, but that dude was pretty obviously mocking MRA stuff right from the start. Like, not even subtly? But it seems like more people missed it than got it.

No. He was being an asshole AND pretending to be an MRA. Since so many MRAs are assholes, the difference was not obvious. He was pitied nonetheless, then he confessed and then he acted as a bigger asshole with a very abuser-like behavior.

So anyway, SS (unfortunate initials), welcome. Are you a long time lurker who suddenly decided she had to comment to defend the honor of MRAL (in which case, what do you think of his post-confession anger at tall women -especially with heels – and women with sexual tastes?) or are you a newcomer who went back in months of comments to dig MRAL comments?

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

To be fair to Seoul Sister, if she’s new and not MRAL, she could just be defending the Mesogog posts

Myoo
Myoo
9 years ago

I think Seoul Sister is referring to Mesogog’s posts, saying that they were obviously mocking MRA stuff.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Also, if she’s not MRAL, then I love the name (of course that would be helped by her actually being Korean)

Polliwog
Polliwog
9 years ago

I’m confused – where did Seoul Sister say anything about knowing MRAL’s history? The only post of hers I see is the one where she says she doesn’t know who MRAL is but thought Mesogog’s posts were funny.

Seoul Sister, assuming you’re not another sockpuppet: you’re right that Mesogog was obviously trying to be a funny parody at first. Then it got weird with the whole “I have to mask my IP because I don’t know if you want me here, actually on second thought I don’t care if you want me here” business (in the process of which he sounded exactly like MRAL, who was banned for his own good as well as everyone else’s).

Mesogog: if you’re not MRAL, those initial few posts were funny, and I hope you’ll tell us who you are instead of playing stupid games. If you are MRAL, those initial few posts were still funny, but that doesn’t make it okay to keep trying to come back to a site where you’ve been banned. Go use that skill for parody to be funny around actual people in real life, make some friends, go to therapy, and do something better than trying to make the people here put up with you after you spent months going out of your way to insult everyone repeatedly.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Oh, I might have been mistaking. Sorry about the previous posts if you were talking about Meso.
About meso, I wompletly agree with polliwog.

Seoul Sister
Seoul Sister
9 years ago

Geezy Creezy.

I post over at Jezebel with the same name, and I know some of the people who post here (mostly CassandraSays). I was honestly not expecting to be SUSPECTED.

I’ve read this blog for a long time, and I usually read the comments, I jumped in because the MRAL preoccupation starts to look really absurd from the outside, and I dunno, I wanted to say something about it. Partially, selfishly, because from the outside, looking in, it makes the comments really boring (Sorry!) to read when everyone is talking so much about this guy. From my perspective, it just looks like people are a bit preoccupied, and it seems to come up EVERY article.

The fact that I got SUSPECTED when I posted really makes it even weirder.

I’ll not comment on it in the future, since I’m pretty sure people don’t want to hear me say “Hey, you guys, stop this.” Thanks, David for approving me, and I’ll try not to make you regret it.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

Hey SS,

It probably does look pretty weird from an outside perspective. MRAL has been messing with people in this space for a long time, and has sockpuppets galore. If it seems like people are paranoid, it’s because we are, but it’s not because of some odd preoccupation we’ve developed as a group. It’s because he’s turned up around so many corners before. I don’t really want to hear about MRAL anymore either, but the only way that’s going to happen is if he stays away long enough that we’re not all on alert all the time.

I do hope you hang around and comment on some other stuff 🙂

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

I also hope that didn’t come off as condescending >.> sorry if it did.

jumbofish
9 years ago

Mral is still a common subject and he might be for awhile till we are sure he won’t sockpuppet again. Its really hard to forget and move on when he keeps coming back. I’m sorry that you were suspected but he has pulled the sockpuppeting to support himself before. Can you blame us for being a tad bit suspicious some random person comes in and says “lay off of him”?

Also I still don’t entirely trust you. You claim not to know who he is here and then implied you had not been here for a long time.

I don’t pretend to know who MRAL is or isn’t, but that dude was pretty obviously mocking MRA stuff right from the start. Like, not even subtly? But it seems like more people missed it than got it.

but then you go ahead and say:

I’ve read this blog for a long time, and I usually read the comments, I jumped in because the MRAL preoccupation starts to look really absurd from the outside, and I dunno, I wanted to say something about it. Partially, selfishly, because from the outside, looking in, it makes the comments really boring

So now you have read it “for a long time” and you know about mral so I’m calling bullshit on you. If you had read this blog for awhile you would have known he actually believed some of what he said and that his “mocking” was meant to harm others.

So are you a person who knows about mral and his past? or are you an outsider looking in? You can’t have it both ways

jumbofish
9 years ago

oops quote fail let me redo that:
Mral is still a common subject and he might be for awhile till we are sure he won’t sockpuppet again. Its really hard to forget and move on when he keeps coming back. I’m sorry that you were suspected but he has pulled the sockpuppeting to support himself before. Can you blame us for being a tad bit suspicious some random person comes in and says “lay off of him”?

Also I still don’t entirely trust you. You claim not to know who he is here and then implied you had not been here for a long time.

I don’t pretend to know who MRAL is or isn’t, but that dude was pretty obviously mocking MRA stuff right from the start. Like, not even subtly? But it seems like more people missed it than got it.

but then you go ahead and say:

I’ve read this blog for a long time, and I usually read the comments, I jumped in because the MRAL preoccupation starts to look really absurd from the outside, and I dunno, I wanted to say something about it. Partially, selfishly, because from the outside, looking in, it makes the comments really boring

So now you have read it “for a long time” and you know about mral so I’m calling bullshit on you. If you had read this blog for awhile you would have known he actually believed some of what he said and that his “mocking” was meant to harm others.

So are you a person who knows about mral and his past? or are you an outsider looking in? You can’t have it both ways

jumbofish
9 years ago

I don’t think you are mral or a troll fyi I mean bullshit as you have no idea what you are talking about with mral. You clearly don’t know what he is like or his intentions so I’m guessing you don’t really read the comments that much.

I actually think talking about him gets annoying and repetitive so I tend to just skip it when it happens. I don’t think its really that weird since he keeps showing his ugly face everywhere but as long as he stays gone I have no doubts people will stop talking about him (like ion or eoghan or EWMP).

Emma the Emo
9 years ago

I don’t get it – if women have abortion, putting up for adoption (and not have to deal with a law that says father has any say to what happens to the baby while in the womb), why don’t men have the male equivalent of that? Are you really pro-equality?

Bostonian
9 years ago

Once the kid is here it needs to be provided for. Also, if a man wants to relinquish all ties to the child, he often can. I know personally several men who did sign away their parental rights because they did not wish to support the child they fathered.

Your version of equality involves men being able to force women to have children they do not want, and also have the right to abandon children at a whim. You are not pro-equality, you just want men to have the final say in women’s bodies at all times.

Aren’t you the one dating the rape advocate, as well?

Sharculese
9 years ago

I don’t get it – if women have abortion, putting up for adoption (and not have to deal with a law that says father has any say to what happens to the baby while in the womb), why don’t men have the male equivalent of that? Are you really pro-equality?

it’s not the law that’s stopping men from getting abortions, kid. you know we can’t get pregnant, right?

Manjaw the Mighty
Manjaw the Mighty
9 years ago

Some men can get pregnant.

Sharculese
9 years ago

@manjaw

when i wrote that in my head, it said ‘as a general rule’ we can’t get pregnant, but then it slipped my mind when i was typing it out. oops.

Manjaw the Mighty
Manjaw the Mighty
9 years ago

That’s why the phrase “war on women” isn’t the best choice of words. Anti-choice and anti reproductive rights politicians and their supporters don’t just hate women, they hate everyone who has a uterus. If you don’t have a penis and testes, you need “real” men with their super-smart penises to make your decisions for you. And Ruby thinks the patriarchy has “diminished”….

cloudiah
cloudiah
9 years ago

What would the cis male “equivalent” of an abortion be, Emma?