Sometimes it’s worth reminding ourselves that despite all the noise they make online, the Men’s Rights movement has basically no presence in the real world. The picture above is an actual photo of a men’s rights symposium at Montana State University. Here’s how the local NBC affiliate described what went down – or, more accurately, what didn’t go down:
The MSU chapter of the National Coalition for Men organized a symposium to raise awareness of problems in men’s lives.
The group geared the event towards fraternity students at the college and invited speakers to talk about things like men’s rights when it comes to sexual misconduct investigations on-campus.
No one showed up to the event but organizers say the lack of attendance is not due to a lack of interest.
You just keep telling yourself that.
@Marc You didn’t engage equally because you did not answer my questions honestly. And you made it perfectly clear that no matter what the facts were, you had a position to defend. Look at my responses if it isn’t clear to you. Kitten still not logical, but fever is down so YAY!!!
“Marc You didn’t engage equally because you did not answer my questions honestly. And you made it perfectly clear that no matter what the facts were, you had a position to defend.”
Please show me where I did not answer honestly.
And you mean that if I defend my position, justs as others here do, I’m not engaging honestly?
Oh my.
@Cassandra
She’s eating. She has an abscess in her mouth that I am trying to deal with. She’s a sweetheart rescue kitty, so any suggestions are appreciated, but do know that I am working with a good vet. We can’t figure out why such a young kitty is having these dental problems. 🙁
That is odd in a young cat. Could be lots of different things, really, but as long as she’s eating that’s half the battle.
@Marc OK, never mind, I see you’re not responding to my posts. I’ll go back to the kitty, as the important figure involved.
I have shown with lots of evidence that (1) lots of people *do* show up to men’s rights events, all over the world; (2) there is activism for men’s rights all over the world; (3) the men’s rights movement asks for nothing more than equal rights; (4) there is discrimination against men in many forms all over the world.
In response, the feminists here make personal ad hom attacks, make baseless generaliztions like that I “did not argue in good faith,” demand that I provide links and then criticize me for providing links, change the subject, assume things I didn’t say, etc. etc.
That is how feminists argue.
“I see you’re not responding to my posts. I’ll go back to the kitty, as the important figure involved.”
I have responded to your posts. I asked you to show me where I was not honest. You still haven’t. I think maybe you’re the one dishonest. Yes, go back to the kitty.
@Cassandra, Thanks, yeah I am hoping it is a weird injury. She actually seems totally healthy except for the mouth cut! Vet and I are hopeful. Hazel is a sweetheart. Please think good thoughts in her general direction.
@Marc
Go back to all of my questions. Show how you answered all of them honestly.
Good night.
Are you the asshole who tried to shut down a woman’s shelter? Angelluci? because that’s a really shitty thing to do. Tell me, why don’t you MRAs ever try to actually get shelters built FOR men like feminists did for women? why are you always trying to take away services for women?
I will! Does it look like maybe she just cut her mouth on something and it didn’t heal well/got infected? Both of mine, when they were young, would occasionally chew on weird random things, would be easy to cut the mouth that way.
My old cat ended up having to have a fang extracted due to decay/gum issues, so let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
No Cloudiah, show me the ones I did not respond to. You’re the one making the allegation of dishonesty. You carry the burden of proof.
Reminds me of the one who insisted I provide more links than I already did, even though others don’t provide links. Then they criticize me for providing links.
Feminists are amazing.
Good night to you too.
Marc, you haven’t “shown” this at all. And it’s not true. I suggest you read through some of the literally hundreds of of posts on this blog that demonstrate otherwise. There may be some people in the MRM who fit this description, or at least think that they do, but many, probably the majority, of MRAs online seem to be driven more by misogyny than by any of the issues they purport to care about.
Hell, the NCFM site links to and borrows content from A Voice for Men, a frankly misogynist site that, among other things, has set up a fake criminal registry to demonize feminist writers as if they are criminals; it encourages men to vote not to convict men who are clearly guilty of rape; it has canonized as an MRA martyr a man who argued for the firebombing of courts and police stations, and reprinted his long manifesto, including his calls for terrorism. AVfM seems far more interested in stoking the rage of its readers than it is in any concrete activism designed to actually help anyone.
“Are you the asshole who tried to shut down a woman’s shelter? Angelluci? because that’s a really shitty thing to do. Tell me, why don’t you MRAs ever try to actually get shelters built FOR men like feminists did for women? why are you always trying to take away services for women?”
I’ll answer both of your questions b/c you just spewed the usual feminist myths. First, I am Angelucci. Second, no I never tried to “shut down” any shelter. I sued on behalf of male victims to end the discrimination by state-funded shelters who refuse to help male victims or even give them a hotel voucher or legal services or counseling. Feminists like to tell you we sued to “shut down” the shelters but that’s nonsense. The shelters were sending male victims and their kids all the way to Valley Oasis in Lancaster, and then criticizing and mistreating Valley Oasis for helping both male and female victims. That went on for decades. I sued the shelters and the state of CA. At first it was thrown out, but then I one at the appellate level and the court held it is unconstitutional to refuse to serve male victims.
As for the feminist allegatin that men aren’t building male shelters, that’s just another myth. They got one built in Yreka, and they have gotten them built elsewhere. But the existing state-funded shelters that take taxpayer money, which men pay more than half of, should not be discriminating. And that’s why I sue them when they discriminate. If it were women they were discriminating against, you feminists would support the lawsuits. But since it’s men discriminated against, you falsely claim we’re trying to “take away services for women.” That’s just a lie. Asking for equal treatment isn’t “taking away” services for women. That’s like heterosexuals arguing that gay marriage is trying to “take away” marriage for heteros. Nonsense. But it suits the feminist purpose.
Marc, no, I don’t feel the need to respond to you. Check out last emails, or ignore them — your choice!
@Cassandra, I think it’s a dental issue, but we shall see. Her sister can be a little ornery, and might have cut her lip. She’s getting antibiotics and a gum cleaning twice a day. My little sweetheart, she’s adorable. Smooches to Hazel!
“Marc, you haven’t “shown” this at all. And it’s not true. I suggest you read through some of the literally hundreds of of posts on this blog that demonstrate otherwise. There may be some people in the MRM who fit this description, or at least think that they do, but many, probably the majority, of MRAs online seem to be driven more by misogyny than by any of the issues they purport to care about.”
No, those are just the ones you focus on. Try looking at the Facebook page “Friends of Protection for Men,” which has thousands of members including lots of women. They are about equal rights for men. NCFM’s site is the same.
“Hell, the NCFM site links to and borrows content from A Voice for Men, a frankly misogynist site that, among other things, has set up a fake criminal registry to demonize feminist writers as if they are criminals; it encourages men to vote not to convict men who are clearly guilty of rape; it has canonized as an MRA martyr a man who argued for the firebombing of courts and police stations, and reprinted his long manifesto, including his calls for terrorism. AVfM seems far more interested in stoking the rage of its readers than it is in any concrete activism designed to actually help anyone.”
NCFM links all kinds of groups. I have even seen feminist men links on NCFM’s site. That’s a very weak argument to try to say NCFM is about misogyny. I haven’t seen much of a Voice for Men but I’ve seen a few very good articles on there like the one about male genital mutilation. We have women on our national board one of whom is the former president of NOW in Dallas. Again, all people like you focus on is the few angry ones, not the serious men’s rights work.
“I don’t feel the need to respond to you. Check out last emails, or ignore them — your choice!”
I already answered them. Since you’re refusing to show what I didn’t answer, I’ll leave it at that.
@Marc
I’m waiting for you to take responsibility for all MRAs before I take responsibility for all feminists. Paul Elam?
Oh my christ, dude, let’s start with your attempts to shut down hearings on sexual assault and your problems with rape law. You’ve got an article on your front page (http://ncfm.org/2012/02/news/releases/stop-abusive-and-violence-environments-save-launches-accusing-u-campaign-against-dept-of-education-discriminatory-and-unconstitutional-directive/ and /holy shit keep your url size down as a matter of courtesy) that highlights this. This is a pile of lies and bullshit
What about here?
http://ncfm.org/2012/02/action/ncfm-member-david-rose-on-calling-the-feminist-bluff/
This is just a pile of privileged bullshit that maligns women and feminists. OH NO SOME COMPANIES ARE BEING FORCED TO COMPENSATE FOR THEIR PARTICIPATION IN A MILLENIA LONG SYSTEM OF OPPRESSION! THE ECONOMY IS ROONED AND FOREIGNERS ARE TOOKIN MAH JOBZ!!!!!
And you say there’s nothing misogynist here.
This is the first news story when we initially filed the lawsuit. The wife admits she was abusive. Channel 13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NomPlNWeIV8
Then the ABC News story when we won the appellate victory. http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/politics&id=6453627
It’s not over at all. Lots of state-funded programs still discriminate. It’s a long battle.
Oh bother, I forgot to point out the two most obvious points against your first article; that even if your example were true, it isn’t an example of civil rights, and more to the point, the most ‘civil rights’ have weakened in regards to rape law is that universities are required to use a lower standard of evidence for a non-criminal punishment to begin with (And before you try the usual dodge here, ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is the burden of proof in criminal trials. Preponderance is used in most civil cases, and if the worst that can happen is expulsion, you’re not in a criminal law proceeding.)
“Oh my christ, dude, let’s start with your attempts to shut down hearings on sexual assault and your problems with rape law.”
Shut down hearings on sexual assault? I’d sure like to hear about that one my Christ dude.
And problems with rape law? Yes, we do criticize certain things about the rape laws. Like when they refuse to prosecute false accusers. When they protect the name of the accuser but not the name of the accused. When they (in some places) make it “rape” when you get drunk and have sex and then regret it. When, like in Indai, they exclude male victims. When, like in England, male victims of statutory rape are denied services. (see the links on the NCFM issues page, I don’t want anyone criticizing me here for providing links). When female statutory rapists don’t get jail time but male ones do. Or, like in India, when male victims are left out.
“What about here?
http://ncfm.org/2012/02/action/ncfm-member-david-rose-on-calling-the-feminist-bluff/”
I haven’t read that. What does it say?
“This is just a pile of privileged bullshit that maligns women and feminists. OH NO SOME COMPANIES ARE BEING FORCED TO COMPENSATE FOR THEIR PARTICIPATION IN A MILLENIA LONG SYSTEM OF OPPRESSION! THE ECONOMY IS ROONED AND FOREIGNERS ARE TOOKIN MAH JOBZ!!!!!”
I’m not following what you’re harping about here. Are you quoting what an individual said and was posed on the site, which posts people’s opinions but aren’t NCFM board positions quite often? I see lots of opinions posted that I don’t agree with. Lots of groups do things that way. The NCFM board takes the position that sex discrimination against men is not ok, and that’s what we, as an organization, address.
Paul Elam? I know very little about him. I’ve read a few things that I liked. Is he one of the ones you feminists like to focus on, rather than people like Warren Farrell or Glenn Sacks or Fathers & Families? Of course, it suits your purpose to do that.
“I’m waiting for you to take responsibility for all MRAs before I take responsibility for all feminists. Paul Elam?”
I haven’t asked you to “take responsibility” for all feminists. Why should anybody “take responsibility” for all MRAs or feminists? That doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t support bigotry in any form, whether it’s misandry or misogyny. I support equal rights. And that’s what the men’s rights movement is about. Some people in both movements express bigotry. But to focus only on that as a criticism of the movement overall is just a way of avoiding the issues.
It’s amazing how feminists here have changed the subject. They started with “nobody shows up to men’s rights events.” Not true. So they change to “the men’s rights ,movement has no legitimate issues” or that “men aren’t discriminated against by sex in any serious way.” Again, not true. So now it’s “there are lots of mysogynists in the men’s rights movement.”
Way to go! Just keep changing the subject. Feminist style.
@Marc
You sued it, which probably took a lot of money from it. How much money did it lose? why didn’t you work to build a shelter for men instead? how many victims were screwed over by that now?
Feminists saw women getting beaten up by their husbands. They attempted to solve the problem by creating shelters for abused women to go to for protection. This is a big enough problem that the CDC, NIJ and WHO recognize it as a problem. Ever think that that’s why they get state funding? also prove to me that men pay more taxes?
More women die than men because of domestic violence: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/intimatestab.cfm
Females are victim to IPV more than men
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/intimate/victims.cfm
I have plenty more links. But lets go with the assumption that DV is equal and there are as many male victims and they need services. Fine. No one is against that. But do MRAs try to build their own? do they lobby the government for funding? do they set up fundraisers or donations? No. MRAs like you sue women’s shelters. By doing that you hurt victims because they need those services, many of which probably had to leave because the shelter couldn’t afford to stay open, or have as many services available. So no, it’s not a lie. When you sue the victims lose. That’s what the problem is.
This is why MRAs are revolting. Women probably ended up going back to their abusers because you choose to sue and take money from women’s shelters rather than get your own built. You can claim that you build shelters, but actions speak louder than words. And the words on main MRA sites like AVfM, the Spearhead and NCFM say enough. I have never come across an MRA who is not a misogynistic asshole. Ulterior motives are all you have, not goals of equality. If you did you would work much harder at lobbying for men’s shelters rather than suing ones for women. Hell you could even approach the issue by using the money to sue/go to court and approach women’s shelters to add a men’s wing instead. If Valley Oasis offered services to men then obviously there are shelters open to the idea of accepting men. Many feminists on this site including myself would be happy to see shelters for men opened, but we oppose taking much needed money away from shelters that women need. It’s different then suing a company for discrimination because no one there are victims.
Also I read that the shelter you sued DID offer a hotel voucher. Quite frankly I believe that article over anything MRAs will say. I have a very hard time believing anything MRAs say because of all the shit most of you guys say about women. I mean, you refuse to even recognize issues women face and don’t even attempt to meet us half way, so yeah. Forgive me if I’m not buying it. I really hope that you are telling the truth about the shelters that have been built for men though.