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Quiz: What makes an MRA maddest? (Pussy-begging A Voice for Men edition.)

Pussy begging at its worst

Several days ago, angry-MRA-dude hub A Voice for Men ran a guest post from someone identified only as Phil in Utah entitled “How I became an MRA: Domestic violence advocacy.” After Phil’s post in question drew some criticism from some of the  AVfM regulars who didn’t see it as radical enough, site founder and head cheese Paul Elam felt it necessary to take Phil to task for one of the statements he made in the post.

So let’s have a quick quiz. Here are three quotes taken from Phil in Utah’s post. Which of them is the one that drew Elam’s ire?

  1. “[F]eminists only support the rights of women who agree with them, and have no qualms throwing disagreeing women under the bus.”
  2.  “[T]he idea that women are hurt more than men by being abused is a load of crap.”
  3. “I still believe that men who brutalize women are the scum of the Earth.”

ANSWER: Did you guess #1? Wrong. While this statement isn’t actually true, Elam didn’t object to it. How about #2? While this statement is also untrue – numerous studies show that women are far more likely to be seriously injured by domestic violence than men – Elam didn’t object to it either. Nope. He objected to statement #3. That is:

I still believe that men who brutalize women are the scum of the Earth.

How could any decent human being possibly object to this? Here’s Elam explanation:

I admit I flinched a little when I read this. Clearly these are words rooted in old world sexist notions about violence; that somehow men who brutalize women are worse than women who brutalize men. It is old programming that tends to swim around in the unconscious even after the first few rounds of red pills.

Now, I should note that Phil didn’t actually say, or imply, that “men who brutalize women are worse than women who brutalize men.” Indeed, he spent most of the essay arguing that DV against men needed to be taken more seriously. If anything, he minimized violence against women, by denying the fact that women are indeed more likely to be seriously injured by their male partners than male partners are to be seriously injured by women.

Evidently, for Elam and others on AVfM, straightforward expressions of enmity against men who brutalize women are a form of “latent misandry.”

But we’re only just getting started here. As it turns out, Elam was less troubled by Phil’s “misandry” than he was by some of the nastier attacks on Phil and other

new MRA’s who are ‘getting it’ but have not had the time or opportunity to fully refine their understanding of the modern zeitgeist.

Indeed, one commenter had even gone so far as to call poor Phil “pussy-footed.” And yet another called him a “mangina/white knight.” This, Elam announced, would not do!

MRA’s name calling and shaming other MRA’s is not constructive. It is petty alpha-gaming … .

In other words, it’s the sort of thing that guys do to try to impress the chicks. And that’s bad.

[A] significant part of the dynamics that hinder progress in the MRM is the innate friction between men which is driven by an undercurrent of sexual competition. Our unfortunate programming is to apply downward pressure on each other in order to vie for sexual selection.

On MRA blogs, this is often described with the scientific term “pussy begging.” Elam continued:

Feminism is an outgrowth of chivalry. It is dependent on male sexual competition to thrive. In short, misandry, feminism, the stinking lot of it, is a human problem rooted in men’s mindless competition for women.  We don’t get out of that competition by simply rejecting women or Going Our Own Way. We get out of it by identifying and respectfully challenging the elements of that competition when they prove dysfunctional, as in going after MRA’s for blood any time we imagine they are not 100% on message. This conduct, when distilled down to its essence, is just a tell-tale artifact of pussy-centric masculinity.

So, in other words, MRAs who call other MRAs pussy-begging manginas are themselves … pussy-begging manginas.

Such is MRA logic.

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Pecunium
9 years ago

Brandon: “Brash and aggressive women get ignored by me, but I am hardly scared of them.

Nope, the women who scare you are the one’s who choose to sleep with you.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Also, scared of does not equal scared that the person is going to beat you up. Brandon appears to be terrified of women with any sort of backbone – not that they’ll physically harm him, just that they won’t respect him or do what he wants them to. Which is probably true.

Lauralot
9 years ago

Considering that saying “Hey, you need to grab some milk while you’re at the store” is disrespectful in his eyes, he must be horrified of pretty much every woman in the first world ever.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Bostonian: How are they endangering others? Did they cause the cruise ship to sink? Are they going around shooting people? No. They pushed a few people out of the way. More violence has been seen at a wedding dress clearance sale or the mall on Christmas Eve…and that is to shop, not to save oneself.

These people used very little effort to save their own lives. So unless you say you would politely and orderly stand in line and patiently wait to be called on to get off the ship, you are full of shit. People panic when their lives are in danger…it’s no surprise and people shouldn’t be vilified because they proactively did something to save themselves. God forbid they act like lemmings.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Brandon: I think you could get better role models than people ready to endanger others to save themselves.
No wanting to jump into fire to save people is one thing (and it’s usually a bad idea anyway), pushing them into the fire to get out the building faster is another. (hint: one is neutral, the other is bad)
What do you want, a cookie for caring more for yourself than the rest of the world combined? For being an egoistical and pretentious prick?

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

@Kyrie, I think what he really wants is for all of us to say that we would behave in exactly the same way, since he thinks he knows this to be true and everyone is lying about it for some reason.

@everyone, we’ve thrown around the idea that Brandon never managed to develop a theory of mind, yes? I feel like it would explain a lot.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Kyrie: Can you prove that the men weren’t just pushing people out of their way but pushing them off the boat itself? I highly doubt the men were going up to the handrails and pushing the nearest women/child over the bar into direct danger.

People that endanger themselves frivolously aren’t role models. It shows they think very little of themselves and would sacrifice themselves so a stranger can live.

I don’t think it is being egotistical, I think it better reflects actual humanity. The idea that these men would place “women and children first” is socially constructed and when you strip that away, you get raw humanity which is “every person for themselves” or “me and my family first”.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Kyrie, I would send him that cookie if it meant he’d never darken our door again.

Of course you don’t think being a selfish prick is egotistical Brandon, you can’t see beyond your own nose.

Lauralot
9 years ago

It’s like the Egotistical Energizer Bunny…just keeps going and going and boring.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

People that endanger themselves frivolously aren’t role models. It shows they think very little of themselves and would sacrifice themselves so a stranger can live.

My opinion is that people that risk their lives to save others are heroes. Look at Chris Lucas, the manager at the Rangeline Pizza Hut. He gave his life to save the lives the other employees and the customers during the Joplin tornado. A waitress also died but that was after he was already sucked into the tornado. Chris Lucas, hero

You want another reason to not just focus on saving your own ass during an emergency? It’s not worth the survivor’s guilt. I would give anything to be able to go back in time and save my neighbor’s life last year. I have a million scenarios in my head where I could have prevented her death, if I had only had more time. Perhaps you would look at this issue differently if you survived a disaster while people around you died. It’s something to think about.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Hellkell: Let’s reverse the genders shall we? If the ship was sinking and women were pushing men out of the way…I doubt members in the MSM or feminists would vilify them. They would most likely say those women “had to do what they needed to do in order to survive”. But only men get called cowards because they tried to save themselves.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Fuck those imaginary women in your head! They’re always doing horrible things in the imaginary scenarios in your head.

And what’s worse, the imaginary feminists in your head have the gall to defend them!

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Kendra: I have no problem with you and others thinking Chris Lucas is a hero. I do have a problem with calling him a coward if he just stayed outside and watched the destruction happen.

Lauralot
9 years ago

It’s not often that I make a comment consisting of “no1curr” and nothing else, but seriously:

No1curr.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Oh my God. It’s worse than I thought. Not only are imaginary women running rampant, but imaginary men are the recipients of untold imaginary discrimination!

This is the worst hypothetical injustice in history.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

@Kendra: I have no problem with you and others thinking Chris Lucas is a hero. I do have a problem with calling him a coward if he just stayed outside and watched the destruction happen.

How could he just go outside and watch the destruction happen? Being outdoors is more dangerous than being inside during a tornado. At least if you’re inside, the building you’re in has some walls separating you from flying debris and the suction of the vortex. That’s why you’re supposed to go to the most interior room away from windows in the lowest level of the building.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Brandon, even your imaginary scenarios are boring.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

“Hey guys, remember that time when all of those feminists roasted men alive and ate them?” “What!? That never happened and it’s really really terrible of you to pretend that it did.” “Oh, right. Hey guys, remember the time when I imagined feminists roasting men alive and eating them?” “…What?” “Yeah! Feminists suck! Cannibals!”

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Brandon, you also said that people that risk their lives are NOT role models. You said they risk their lives frivolously. If someone sacrifices hirself to save lives, then it’s not frivolous. Lucas decided it was worth sacrificing his life to save a dozen other people. Now you’re saying it’s okay to call Lucas a hero, but before you said that self sacrifice wasn’t role model worthy.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Holly: That’s funny since women and feminists have supported things they claim to oppose. Things like domestic violence…just as long as it was a woman hitting a man (Elin Nordegren hitting Tiger Woods).

Nobody in the media calls women that trample other women while shopping cowards. They might say the overall incident is tragic, but they rarely (if ever) come out and call the women cowards for treating a wedding dress or a child’s toy as more important than the safety of the other women around them.

Men on the other hand get called cowards and pathetic when they do not rush to the aid of women.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Brandon, I hate to break it to you, but those feminists that approve of Elin Nordegren and of women who trample other women while shopping?

Also imaginary.

(Actually, the entire “women trampling women” narrative is imaginary; the two deaths from Black Friday stampedes were men trampled by a mixed-gender crowd. In no case has a group of women screaming over wedding dresses* trampled another woman.)

*Are they all getting married on the same day? Do you not realize most wedding dresses have to be tailored and/or special-ordered? This doesn’t even make sense.

Lauralot
9 years ago

Feminists didn’t find Elin Nordegren attacking Tiger Woods funny anywhere outside of your imagination.

God, even your imagination is dull.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Where were feminists praising Elin Nordegren? I don’t know of any feminists except the ones in your head that would cheer any kind of DV on. Nice try though. Wanna back that theory up with something concrete?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

That’s funny since women and feminists have supported things they claim to oppose. Things like domestic violence…just as long as it was a woman hitting a man (Elin Nordegren hitting Tiger Woods).

That’s not true. At feministing they condemned Saturday Night Live for making jokes about Elin’s attack on Tiger Woods. Feminists are against ALL types of domestic violence.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Holly, I think he’s talking about the one day Filene’s has the wedding dresses on sale. Never heard of anyone being trampled to death there.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

I think the wedding dresses thing has to do with when stores carrying expensive, designer dresses will have a day or a weekend every year where they sell off their sample dresses as-is for much less than a new gown would cost. From what I understand, these sales are pretty busy, but they’re not the kicking, scratching, oh-look-women-are-so-shallow-they’re-fighting-over-dresses-lolz mess that people will make them out to be.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Lauralot, I picture his imagination as a vast Sahara littered with oases of total fucking bullshit that he regurgitates on cue.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Hellkell – Oh. I suspect you’re giving him too much credit, though, and he’s just trying to think of the most obnoxiously womanish things a bunch of women might buy.

He also seems to be under the impression that the Wal-Mart stampedes weren’t massively condemned by everyone who heard about them. If there was a media outlet or even a commenter out there anywhere saying “these deaths were very tragic, but hey, I understand that shoppers gotta shop, can’t really blame ’em!”, I sure as hell never saw it.

darksidecat
darksidecat
9 years ago

Brandon, I know it’s hard for a sociopath like you to understand, but some of us consider the wellbeing of people other than ourselves to be important and to be an important part of decisions in crisis situations.

Bostonian
9 years ago

No one supported domestic violence against men here, certainly. Where did you see feminists support domestic violence against Tiger Woods?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Holly, I never saw that either. “Consumers gonna consume, two dead. Here’s Ted with the weather.” Never happened.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

The things I’m getting from Brandon’s comments are:

1. Men only worked themselves to death in the past because of women.

2. Women are taking over everything, including high-powered positions requiring 50-hour workweeks.

3. Brandon feels that women are stupid for working 50 hour work weeks

4. Brandon says that men now feel snubbed because they’re no longer “needed” to work themselves to death for 50 hours a week.

Wait, what? Why do men feel snubbed for not having to work so hard anymore? Like, shouldn’t you be happy about this?

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Hellkell – I think what he’s angry about is that the women involved in the stampedes weren’t specifically condemned for being terrible evil women. Or something?

DSC – I tend to think a real sociopath would have long ago given up and gone “fine, don’t believe I’m a sociopath, see if I care.” Brandon cares so much about convincing us he doesn’t care.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Brandon’s argument is just another version of Owlslave’s “women will kill everyone just because they want more dresses and accessories”, only he has better spelling.

The thing is, Brandon, you wouldn’t have this “The men are all withdrawing from this because you don’t *need* us!” attitude if you didn’t, like, actually care.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Some more things I’ve learned from the thread.

1. Brandon thinks people who die to save others are not role models. They give up their lives frivolously.

2. Brandon says it’s okay for people to look up to the Joplin Pizza Hut manager as a hero. Please pretend he never made the first statement that men like him are not role models.

3. It is okay for people to run outside to save themselves during tornadoes. Pretend that makes sense, even though the National Weather Service advises the exact opposite.

4. He thinks women trample each other to death for wedding dresses. LOL women and their dresses, amirite?

5. He blames feminists for the jokes people made about Elin’s attack on Tiger Woods, even though I gave him a link from feministing condemning the attack and the jokes.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

See, this precisely why you’re full of shit, Brandon. You construct arguments based on shit you made up. You just told of room full of feminists that have in fact condemned domestic violence against men on many occasions that feminists don’t condemn domestic violence against men.

Or is this one those things that’s just like, generally true, y’know? No need to examine it or present evidence or anything. Clearly the mark of a bold an independent thinker.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Actually, this Brandon argument is reminding me more of Fight Club. Brandon is just one bad relationship away from living in an abandoned house and peeing in the shrimp bisque just to escape women and their savage hunts for wedding dresses!

Molly Ren
9 years ago

The thing is, Brandon espouses a lot of ideas that I, too support. He’s about working for himself, having non-traditional relationships, and seems to think birth control is a good idea.

The thing is, the reasons he has for supporting all these things is really whack. He works for himself and has a non-traditional relationship involving birth control because he thinks a woman just wants to force him to work 50-hour weeks in order for her to have a house and a baby and a wedding dress.

With allies like Brandon, who needs enemies?

Myoo
Myoo
9 years ago

It’s the Brandon Show, with the amazing Moving Goalposts.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w408/myoomyoo/dancinggoalpost2.gif

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

Myoo, your dancing goalposts are great!

Brandon, there are a couple problems with your constant goalpost-shifting. The first one — and really, this should be obvious to you — is that you’re doing it in print. In a real-life conversation, your words disappear as soon as you say them, so you might be able to convince your listening audience that you never made the original claim that they thought you had. But here, the words are preserved. We can just scroll up, find them, and reference them. You can’t just pretend it never happened.

The other problem is that you do this every single time you post here. The moment I see you making any sort of outlandish claim, I immediately assume that when you’re challenged on it, you’re going to back down to a more moderate one and pretend that’s what you were arguing all along. I’m on the lookout for it, and so is everyone else. There’s some slim chance that you might have slipped something by us at some point, but not anymore.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
9 years ago

So unless you say you would politely and orderly stand in line and patiently wait to be called on to get off the ship

Well yes, that is how you all get off the ship-you follow the directions of the crew to get off the ship in an orderly fashion because otherwise no one might get off.

Also stop conflating women as a whole with feminists. Not all women are feminists so when someone thinks “right on” to some celebrity woman hitting her cheating spouse, it does not mean she is a feminist. It means she is a jerk.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
9 years ago

He thinks women trample each other to death for wedding dresses. LOL women and their dresses, amirite?

There was a segment on The Smoking Gun’s World’s Dumbest that involved a bunch of women fighting over various different wedding accoutrements but no one died. Perhaps this is what he was thinking about?

The fights got pretty vicious so maybe he though someone died. Or maybe he is an idiot. The world already knows.

katz
9 years ago

Why would anyone actually get physically violent over a delicate and expensive item? If you try to yank it out of someone else’s hands, the most likely outcome is that you’ll damage it and then no one will get a wedding dress.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
9 years ago

Crowd hysteria whipped up by the TV producers in that one bit with the women battling over things in a giant wedding cake at one point.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

Can you prove that the men weren’t just pushing people out of their way but pushing them off the boat itself?

No. Because I wasn’t there and didn’t read detailed account from survivors. But that’s totally beyond the point.

Pushing people, making them fall – even not out of the boat – in the context of a catastrophe evacuation put their life in danger. They might hit their head, be stepped on, make more people panic, separate children or other weak persons from parents or family. Since I’m not a professional, I don’t know everything that could happen, but that seem to be a good few examples.
Evacuating in order and calm maximize the number of saved lived;

Let me sum that up: case with more dead people: bad. What you need to understand is that society is not just an aggregate of egoistical individuals. (Anyway, why don’t you like that word? In your case, that’s not an insult but an objective qualifier) Society, as a group, want to survive. Therefore society looks up and thanks individuals that save people by taking risks and down to those who risks people life in the hope of increasing their personal odds. (I say hope, because, see above, creating panic might well increase the danger for you.)

Several noticed it already, but I can’t resist:

People that endanger themselves frivolously aren’t role models. It shows they think very little of themselves and would sacrifice themselves so a stranger can live.

I have no problem with you and others thinking Chris Lucas is a hero. I do have a problem with calling him a coward if he just stayed outside and watched the destruction happen.

And he would not be a coward if he hadn’t done anything. It would be neutral. He would have been a coward he he had actively engendered a person in order to assure his own safety.
You’ll notice (or not, probably) that nobody here is claiming women should have evacuated first.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

The thing that got to me about Brandon’s backpedaling is that he did it within the same page of this thread, so it was very blatant.

I still can’t get over him saying “if he had just stayed outside and watched the destruction happen”. It proves to me he was not paying any attention to what I said, because how could you escape the destruction of a tornado by going outside? That’s probably the most dangerous thing you could do. He must have missed that I was discussing a tornado, and so he assumed I was talking about a fire, where you can save yourself by running outside.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Kendra: Ya, and there were Swedish women (gasp…some even feminists!) praising Elin for attacking Tiger based on the rationalization that “he deserved it” for “hurting her”.

1) Yes.

2) I personally wouldn’t see him as a hero, but I don’t have the right to tell others who they can or can’t praise.

3) This really isn’t about tornados, but men leaving safety to risk themselves for strangers.

4) Trample might be too strong of a word. But they do push and pull one another to get to the dresses. (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbuXAg6tu8 and other Related Videos).

5) One link to a feminist blog condemning the behavior does not absolve everyone else. By that logic, I can post to http://www.glennsacks.com/confronting_women_bashing.htm and that would absolve all MRA’s of vile speech.

@Bostonian: And the Manboobz commenters are just a small sampling of feminists. They do not represent the majority of feminists. There are like 50 femmies that consistently post here, hardly a proper sample size with 6 billion people in the world (or 300 million just for the US).

@Molly:

1) I wouldn’t say “only”, but men in the past were pushed and incentivized by society to provide for women.

2) Women aren’t really “taking over everything”. They are just becoming a larger part of the labor force.

3) I have no problem with women or men working 50 hours a week. It isn’t my life, so what you do with it is fine by me. The point I was trying to make was that a group of men are leaving the “provider” role behind and only working enough to live simply.

4) I don’t think most men feel snubbed because women are working more. I think a lot of men feel resentment for a lot of women’s desire to earn the same but still hang on to traditional dating mores because they are “romantic”. It isn’t the working that is the issue, its that a lot of women aren’t accepting more equality based dating norms.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Brandon, why do you bother? You must love having your ass handed to you.

“Trampled might be too strong a word…” You used it, however. You do know that words have meaning, don’t you?

In regards to #4 on your response to Molly, I think YOU resent that, but instead you’re trying to qualify that by “a lot of men” with jackshit to back it up. What’s wrong, doesn’t Ashley go dutch?

Sharculese
9 years ago

in regards to #4 on your response to Molly, I think YOU resent that, but instead you’re trying to qualify that by “a lot of men” with jackshit to back it up.

that pattern is, like, 80% of all arguments brandon tries to make and he still hasnt figured out that everyone can see through it.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

4) I don’t think most men feel snubbed because women are working more. I think a lot of men feel resentment for a lot of women’s desire to earn the same but still hang on to traditional dating mores because they are “romantic”. It isn’t the working that is the issue, its that a lot of women aren’t accepting more equality based dating norms.

And you’re complaining about this to… a bunch of feminists. Okay.