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Quiz: What makes an MRA maddest? (Pussy-begging A Voice for Men edition.)

Pussy begging at its worst

Several days ago, angry-MRA-dude hub A Voice for Men ran a guest post from someone identified only as Phil in Utah entitled “How I became an MRA: Domestic violence advocacy.” After Phil’s post in question drew some criticism from some of the  AVfM regulars who didn’t see it as radical enough, site founder and head cheese Paul Elam felt it necessary to take Phil to task for one of the statements he made in the post.

So let’s have a quick quiz. Here are three quotes taken from Phil in Utah’s post. Which of them is the one that drew Elam’s ire?

  1. “[F]eminists only support the rights of women who agree with them, and have no qualms throwing disagreeing women under the bus.”
  2.  “[T]he idea that women are hurt more than men by being abused is a load of crap.”
  3. “I still believe that men who brutalize women are the scum of the Earth.”

ANSWER: Did you guess #1? Wrong. While this statement isn’t actually true, Elam didn’t object to it. How about #2? While this statement is also untrue – numerous studies show that women are far more likely to be seriously injured by domestic violence than men – Elam didn’t object to it either. Nope. He objected to statement #3. That is:

I still believe that men who brutalize women are the scum of the Earth.

How could any decent human being possibly object to this? Here’s Elam explanation:

I admit I flinched a little when I read this. Clearly these are words rooted in old world sexist notions about violence; that somehow men who brutalize women are worse than women who brutalize men. It is old programming that tends to swim around in the unconscious even after the first few rounds of red pills.

Now, I should note that Phil didn’t actually say, or imply, that “men who brutalize women are worse than women who brutalize men.” Indeed, he spent most of the essay arguing that DV against men needed to be taken more seriously. If anything, he minimized violence against women, by denying the fact that women are indeed more likely to be seriously injured by their male partners than male partners are to be seriously injured by women.

Evidently, for Elam and others on AVfM, straightforward expressions of enmity against men who brutalize women are a form of “latent misandry.”

But we’re only just getting started here. As it turns out, Elam was less troubled by Phil’s “misandry” than he was by some of the nastier attacks on Phil and other

new MRA’s who are ‘getting it’ but have not had the time or opportunity to fully refine their understanding of the modern zeitgeist.

Indeed, one commenter had even gone so far as to call poor Phil “pussy-footed.” And yet another called him a “mangina/white knight.” This, Elam announced, would not do!

MRA’s name calling and shaming other MRA’s is not constructive. It is petty alpha-gaming … .

In other words, it’s the sort of thing that guys do to try to impress the chicks. And that’s bad.

[A] significant part of the dynamics that hinder progress in the MRM is the innate friction between men which is driven by an undercurrent of sexual competition. Our unfortunate programming is to apply downward pressure on each other in order to vie for sexual selection.

On MRA blogs, this is often described with the scientific term “pussy begging.” Elam continued:

Feminism is an outgrowth of chivalry. It is dependent on male sexual competition to thrive. In short, misandry, feminism, the stinking lot of it, is a human problem rooted in men’s mindless competition for women.  We don’t get out of that competition by simply rejecting women or Going Our Own Way. We get out of it by identifying and respectfully challenging the elements of that competition when they prove dysfunctional, as in going after MRA’s for blood any time we imagine they are not 100% on message. This conduct, when distilled down to its essence, is just a tell-tale artifact of pussy-centric masculinity.

So, in other words, MRAs who call other MRAs pussy-begging manginas are themselves … pussy-begging manginas.

Such is MRA logic.

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Bostonian
9 years ago

How about people who beat others are evil and wrong? Regardless of the genders involved? Could we get any MRAs to ever agree to that?

Probably not. MRAs just want to insist that women are the ultimate evil, no matter what.

Sharculese
9 years ago

[A] significant part of the dynamics that hinder progress in the MRM is the innate friction between men which is driven by an undercurrent of sexual competition.

if nothing else, mras are pioneers in the field of making excuses

Lady Zombie
Lady Zombie
9 years ago

Pardon me but I seem to remember something an MRA said about feminists and/or women having a hivemind. Totally unlike these brave soldiers for Men’s Rights! Right?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

I think it’s hilarious that Elam of all people is concerned about name calling in the MRM. It’s like listening to Newt Gingrich talk about “family values”.

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

How about people who beat others are evil and wrong? Regardless of the genders involved? Could we get any MRAs to ever agree to that?

I had the same thought. Isn’t “people who beat other people are the scum of the earth” the most egalitarian and comprehensive form of that particular message?

Or is that just my oppressive misandrist feminism talking again?

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I’m getting to the point where I’d feel MORE comfortable if these guys just came out and endorsed beating women and legalizing rape, instead of playing all these damn games. Everything they say heavily, heavily implies a pro-abuse stance and they may as well just say it already.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Elam thinks he’s a lot smarter than he actually is, a common MRA misconception.

Pecunium
9 years ago

I like that Elam says he is , “respectfully respectfully challenging the elements of that competition when they prove dysfunctional.”

Respectfully saying that he hopes another man gets raped.

I’m glad I’ve never seen what he thinks of as being disrepectful, much less abusive.

Naira
Naira
9 years ago

I’m getting to the point where I’d feel MORE comfortable if these guys just came out and endorsed beating women and legalizing rape, instead of playing all these damn games. Everything they say heavily, heavily implies a pro-abuse stance and they may as well just say it already.

I’d have to agree.

At this point, it’s the “but it is really a natural/humane/acceptable stance to have!” rationalization of the abuse (which couldn’t REALLY be abuse since it is natural, humane, and acceptable) that gives me the headache.

Sharculese
9 years ago

@pecunium

he draws the line at plausible deniability, which for elam seems to mean that as long as you speak in innuendo nobody can pin your negative statements to you. so fantasize about violent retribution all you want, just don’t suggest you’ll be the one to do it, because then they’ll be on to us.

he thinks he’s trading in dog whistles but its more like standing on the porch shouting fido’s name

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

MRA’s name calling and shaming other MRA’s is not constructive. Calling other men “white knights” or “manginas” is A-OK with me.

Happy
Happy
9 years ago

Elam is a clown. I look forward to every article that he reads. I started reading his stuff about 18 months ago and, if I’m honest, got concerned that the MRM had a spokesperson who wasn’t quite obviously deranged. He’s semi-articulate but utterly lacking in critical thinking (and reality). But anyway, my concern got washed away quickly, by an angry tempest of deluded rhetoric (as Elam might say).

The guy is an absolute fool. But word for word, John the Other is far funnier.

Elam found a gay guy somewhere to write for his tacky little blog. It’s hilarious how the anus named posters avoid him.

Happy
Happy
9 years ago

*writes, not reads.

I am a daily (twice daily) reader of AVfM. Does this make me an MRA? Or just a student with too much time on my hands?

J. Michael Mount
9 years ago

Funny. An MRA says one reasonable thing, and every other MRA wants to rip his throat out. Unbelievable.

Hi everyone. Long time reader, first time poster. How are you all doing?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

I can’t read an entire post by JohntheOther. I’ve tried a few times, but had to stop halfway through out of boredom. Elam is also a boring writer, but I think he’s a little less wordy.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Kendra: Neither of them holds a candle to Fidelbogen.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

“Elam found a gay guy somewhere to write for his tacky little blog. It’s hilarious how the anus named posters avoid him.”

Yesterday, someone on Youtube mentioned a supposed quote from Elam saying that homosexuality was not natural and that until 150 years ago there were no cases of someone being born gay. I asked them to give me the source. Hopefully they get back to me soon.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

@Pecunium, I agree. Fidelbogen is the gold standard in dull, wordy writing. JtO gets an honorable mention.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

@Crumbelievable

MRA’s name calling and shaming other MRA’s is not constructive. Calling other men “white knights” or “manginas” is A-OK with me.

MRA doesn’t stand for Men’s Rights Activist, but rather MRAs’ Rights Activist.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

MRARAs.

Or, if you consider their attitude that only right-thinking “real” MRAs (not those “masculist” manginas!) are worthy of respect…

MRARARAs.

Cloudiah
Cloudiah
9 years ago

I really wish I could draw a picture illustrating one of the comments on another AVfM post, “The Golden Uterus Syndrome.” I wondered if maybe uteri came in levels like credit cards or Olympic medals, but it turns out the phrase just means that “a woman thinks she deserves special privileges just because she has given birth to a child.” One of the commenters (Pendelton) wrote of “The living hell a man goes through where the golden uterus lives on his back and shoulders 24/7, also using his children to dump on and chump off him has got to be comparably unbearable.” Now I have this bizarre mental image of a man going about his day with a golden uterus living on his back and shoulders. How would he sleep? Would he have to get all of his coats altered? Would he qualify for reasonable accommodation under the ADA? Would this make a good reality show? So many questions.

Ari
Ari
9 years ago

….Wait. Did they just, accidentally, almost make the argument, wherein hyper-masculine gender reinforcement of male competition for the sake of The Elusive Pussy might actually… be counter-productive?

I mean, holding aside for the moment what they (MRA’s) might consider the ideal world… I think Elam just managed to articulate a Male Feminist perspective for gender equality. (Oops?)

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Sure, sure, a golden uterus on your back would be uncomfortable, but it still beats the hell out of having one actually inside your pelvis. I mean OW.

No empathy, these guys.

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

Uh… pregnant and recently-pregnant people OUGHT to have special accommodations, on account of that whole “growing a baby and pushing it out your vag” thing is hard.

And people who are primary caregivers should ALSO have special accommodations, because they are working an extra full-time job taking care of children.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

…also using his children to dump on and chump off him has got to be comparably unbearable.

Hey, what does “dump on and chump off him” mean? Is that that thing where children have needs and they sometimes go to their father instead of their mother (assuming they have one of both) to get those needs fulfilled? Yeah, Golden Uterus Moms totally egg those little monsters on to do that shit.

Pecunium
9 years ago

I think the dump on and chump off is that she can “dump them” on him, when she wants to go out, and she can also, “use them” to get money from him.

Because you know that when she says little Timmy needs new shoes, she’s getting a manicure.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Ozy had a recent post at NSWATM where zie discussed how the Census Bureau described fathers as mere babysitters for their own children. Here’s an area where men are treated badly, like they’re not as good at nurturing and caregiving as mothers. The MRA’s, though, don’t make much fuss about that stereotype unless they’re getting a divorce and want custody. Otherwise, a lot of them act like taking care of children is the most degrading activity on earth (“women’s work”). Hey MRA’s, if you want to fight sexist stereotypes against men, you should stop saying things like “also using his children to dump on and chump off him”.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

The comment section on the Golden Uterus article (which is on The Spreadhead, not AVFM) is, as to be expected, a comedy goldmine:

“Women’s value is defined by what they have. Which is a vagina, uterus, and babymaking capability. Hence the self-entitlement and the probable evolutionary adaptation of selfishness and reliance on emotional solipsism and manipulation.

Men’s value is defined by what they do. Which is build absolutely everything, provide everything and advance civilization through their effort, rationality, intelligence, courage and sacrifice.” (42 up, 2 down)

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Fidelbogen and JonhtheOther also love using ten dollar words when five dollar words would work better. Their smug pretentiousness is very annoying.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Um, I’ve got arms and legs and a head and stuff.

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

MRA doesn’t stand for Men’s Rights Activist, but rather MRAs’ Rights Activist.

I love it.

It makes so much more sense now!

Moewicus
Moewicus
9 years ago

@crumbelievable

That sounds like NWOslave, except I’m guessing it’s not him because it doesn’t obsess over sexuality quite as much.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

So all those women that built things-like say my Great Grandmother on her ranch-they did not actually build it. Even though in her case she actually nailed the wood in place but since I guess she bought the lumber, she did not really build it.

Amused
9 years ago

Here’s an area where men are treated badly, like they’re not as good at nurturing and caregiving as mothers. The MRA’s, though, don’t make much fuss about that stereotype unless they’re getting a divorce and want custody. Otherwise, a lot of them act like taking care of children is the most degrading activity on earth (“women’s work”).

I don’t think the MRA’s have a problem with that stereotypes even when they talk about divorce. Even in divorce, they consider child care degrading, beneath them, and therefore “women’s work”. When they talk about “default shared custody”, they aren’t talking about sharing child care; they are talking about retaining control and decision-making authority over the child, while continuing to saddle the mother with all, or most, of the day-to-day physical work.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

“Women’s value is defined by what they have. Which is a vagina, uterus, and babymaking capability. Hence the self-entitlement and the probable evolutionary adaptation of selfishness and reliance on emotional solipsism and manipulation.

This sound a LOT like NWO’s theory of sexuality, that all women are just their parts.

pillowinhell
9 years ago

You should read some of the linked articles in the golden uterus section! Had a great time chuckling over some of their personal mommy issues.

Also, the fifteen point list on symptoms of golden uterus….wow. How many women really act like that. Yes, I’m sure that there are some truly abusive, narcissistic women out there, but they aint all that common!

ithiliana
9 years ago

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth: Yep, unless your grandmother chewed the trees down with her teeth (like the manly men), and karate chopped them into boards (like menly man), and then build her ranch, she didn’t REALLY build it.

ithiliana
9 years ago

Presents, without comment, or having looked at any of them, the results page from a google search for “the golden penis.”

Sauce, goose, gander.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+golden+penis

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

Wait a minute, if women are defined by what they have, and men are defined by what they do, then why do women get shamed for sleeping around but men don’t?

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

I don’t know about the rest of the female hivemind, but my CV is five pages of things I have *accomplished.* It does not contain a single mention of any of my body parts.

Cloudiah
Cloudiah
9 years ago

@crumbelievable: Oops, thanks for correcting the citation!

katz
9 years ago

Dani, if you did it, we all did it. That’s why we’re a hivemind.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

When they talk about “default shared custody”, they aren’t talking about sharing child care; they are talking about retaining control and decision-making authority over the child, while continuing to saddle the mother with all, or most, of the day-to-day physical work.

True, the MRA’s would still want mom to do all of the physical work and take on all of the financial costs as well. Some of them remarry and expect the next wife to do all of the work, though. Either way, I don’t think many of them want to change diapers, attend parent-teacher conferences, break up sibling squabbles, or stay up all night with a feverish child. MRA’s want all of the benefits of parenthood with none of the responsibility.

Medium Dave
9 years ago

I just noticed this: Exasperated by the latest round of the PUA/MRA wars, our friend Alex Novy says, “This community has an amazing ability of chasing away anyone sane.” I could not have said it better. 😀

Medium Dave
9 years ago

Er, try here.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Ahh, so now all the “written” works of the MRM are kooks, the real MRM is in video form? Well, I’m glad that’s settled then.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

When Youtube videos are youur only source of reliable information, you know your movement is f*cked.

Sharculese
9 years ago

I just noticed this: Exasperated by the latest round of the PUA/MRA wars, our friend Alex Novy says, “This community has an amazing ability of chasing away anyone sane.” I could not have said it better.

i love the inexplicable bolding of ‘great hope and optimism’

but if alek novy shows up here with a bunch of boring words about internal mrm politics, that is on your head

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
9 years ago

True, the MRA’s would still want mom to do all of the physical work and take on all of the financial costs as well. Some of them remarry and expect the next wife to do all of the work, though. Either way, I don’t think many of them want to change diapers, attend parent-teacher conferences, break up sibling squabbles, or stay up all night with a feverish child. MRA’s want all of the benefits of parenthood with none of the responsibility.

And yet how often do MRAs prattle “women want equal rights but not equal responsibilities”. lol

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Irony

red_locker
9 years ago

“For the moment I will pretend that AVfM is the only MRA site on the planet, because that would be the only thing that can keep me sane.”

So, Alex Novy knows that AVfM is stupid, yet wants to pretend otherwise just to continue his bullshit.

Is it any wonder MRAs aren’t taken seriously?

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