Paul Elam has apparently become something of a comedian – though not on purpose. In his latest post on A Voice for Men, he takes on the atheist community for being too in thrall to (wait for it) feminism.
I’ll let him explain:
[T]hey are too religious. Yes, I mean that literally. For when you wipe away all the bombastic bellowing about empiricism and the strident mocking of those who choose a life of faith, what you are left with is a population of people that surrender their reason and cognition as though they were at gunpoint; that hit their knees as fast as any Catholic…to worship at the altar of feminism.
His proof? Several years ago someone at Atheist Nexus posted a link to a Men’s News Daily column of his, and – get this! – some feminists responded!
You can go here to see all the horrible things these evil cultish feminist atheists said. Like, for example:
I guess I’m a feminist, but I really like men and these are some of the things I love about them:
Protectiveness is a positive trait in men that women who want to have babies look for. We also like passion and some recklessness, but you won’t get me to admit that to my daredevil husband…..
Confidence; men usually have more of it and it is mostly a postive trait.
The ability to make decisions quickly.
Physical strength and endurance are helpful in many family situations. Ahem.
Penises. You have them, lots of us like them. I know it’s not technically a “trait”, but I had to put that in.
You can practically taste the man-hate there!
Elam, I should note, ignores that comment. No, what’s got his underpants in a wad is this comment:
The whole web site mensnewsdaily.com is a sad overreaction to the growing equality of women in society.
Evidently he’s been stewing about this remark for more than two years.
In fact, if you go and take a look at it, the discussion on Atheist Nexus wasn’t … really … all that feminist. Yes, several people criticized Elam and mensnewsdaily as “extreme,” but one of those people also criticized radical feminists as similarly “extreme.” Some of the commenters explicitly identified themselves as feminist; others explicitly criticized feminism. Nonetheless, the discussion somehow managed to be the politest conversation about gender I’ve run across online in a long, long time.
Seriously. Go take a look at it. Then consider how Elam sums it all up:
Apparently they can’t even handle 50 years of loud mouthed arts majors without drinking the Kool-aide and going brain dead. There was scarcely a voice among them that did not wallow in the ersatz enlightenment so common to feminist ideologues.
And then he moves on to whatever this is:
Feminism, as far as ideology goes, has been very effective at using human reproductive realities to co-opt other movements. In fact, from the American Civil Rights Movement to Occupy Wall Street, feminism has progressed without paying its own way, but rather by sending women in to other social arenas and wheedling men into supporting them. The Borg would be proud if they had emotions. Resistance is Futrelle.
Ho ho! Futrelle rhymes with futile! Sort of! Lest Elam and co. become too overwhelmed with pride for this clever wordplay, I should note that some junior high schoolers beat him to the punch back in the late 70s. Or maybe it was grade schoolers. I really don’t remember.
I’m less clear about the rest of his argument about “human reproductive realities.” Apparently it’s a fancy way of saying that dudes only support feminism so they can get laid. Another highly original notion.
Elam’s other piece of evidence that feminism has taken over the atheist community? PZ Myers.
He quotes this evil athio-feminazi ideologue arguing that if male atheists want to get more women involved in the atheist community, they should:
Learn to shut up and listen. Seriously. You want women to find your organization pleasant and interesting and worth contributing to? Then don’t form panels full of men trying to figure out what women want, talking over women who try to get a word in edgewise, belittling women’s suggestions with jokes, and trying to determine how We Well-Meaning Men can give Those Women what we think they want. You are assuming an authority and presuming that it is in your power to give it to the minority, when what you should be doing is deferring to that minority and giving them your attention, letting them speak and shape your organization.
God – or, if you prefer, Imaginary Entity – forbid that male atheists actually listen to women explain why they might feel unwelcome in the mostly male (and not particularly feminist friendly) atheist community.
You really think feminism has taken over the atheist community? Take a look at Reddit’s Atheism subreddit, where, recently, a woman who recently described how she had been raped was attacked as a liar and a slut in a thread filled with rape jokes. Or go back a little further to the Elevatorgate brouhaha, where an atheist blogger who politely mentioned in a podcast that she doesn’t really like being hit on by strange men in elevators at 4 AM drew the ire of countless angry atheist dudes, including Richard Fucking Dawkins himself? (In case you want to revisit that bit of nastiness, I wrote about “Elevatorgate” in several blog posts; here are some reactions from decidedly non-feminist atheists.)
This is a movement that “worship[s] at the altar of feminism[?]” Not really seeing it, dude.
But again, congrats on the whole Futrelle/futile thing. Genius!
“If I were a woman I’d get lots of positive attention” is a great example of thinking:
1. That straight male sexual attraction = the universe
2. That woman = attractive young woman
Okay, and also:
3. That straight men always express their attraction to attractive young women in positive ways, as opposed to by sexually threatening them, trying to “take them down a notch” out of spite, stalking them, or completely dismissing everything about them besides their body.
In all seriousness, why hasn’t MRAL just been banned? He’s clearly never going to leave of his own accord, and his presence here isn’t exactly enhancing the conversation on any topic.
All right, Mral, you don’t hate, you’re just irrationnaly angry, jaleous and mean with women. Better? I tried checking but my phone won’t let me…
End of me caring about the brat for now. What’s POF?
Plenty of Fish – it’s a dating site. Never used it so I can’t tell you if it’s awesome, awful, or something in between.
POF is meant to be a dating site but, basically, it’s more of a hook-up site. I rarely use it, much prefer OKCupid, generally better educated people.
Whilst I’m not particularly into BDSM, I have and use a Fet account as I find kinksters are generally open and tolerant people. I suppose they’d have to be! Though I suspect some of the “doms” are fuelling their anger/resentment against women.
Personally, I don’t believe MRAL believes half the shit he comes out with – he is, first and foremost, an attention seeker. He creates a bit of commotion and gets some micro-celebrity and it makes him feel good.
Dating sites are full of MRALs sending hateful, overtly sexual, incoherant messages to women. The women don’t respond or else send angry responses, the MRAL-type gets negative attention and feels justified in being angry, so sends out more messages, so gets more negative attention etc
If he stopped, listened, ditched the MRA idiocy and concentrated on being a decent human being, he’d find a decent woman to spend time with sooner or later. But it’s easier being a keyboard cowards anonymously abusing people online.
@ MRAL – you are pathetic. Stop being pathetic. Feminism didn’t do this to you, neither did women – you do it to yourself by behaving the way you do.
Take a look at … John the Other, watch his youtube videos, read his words. The guy is awkward, clumsy, hateful, spiteful, bitter and scared. That is what you are going to end up like in 25 years, if not considerably worse. The current batch of MRAs have only been immersed in their sad little movement for 10 years tops – you have potentially decades to go.
You have a choice, as I have said. Follow Paul Elam into a life of bitterness, celibacy and emotional void or pull yourself together and conquer your fears of women.
Right now you’re a tragic little boy, making noise and liking it when people look.
You are ugly, ugly, ugly – and I don’t mean in a physical sense.
You’re always so good at boiling it down concisely. This is exactly what guys who say “women get lots of positive attention” are envisioning. A gorgeous 18-20 year old young woman. Everyone else is invisible to them.
I really don’t think MRAL is in a good condition to date right now. I say this as not only a poster who is familiar with his comments, but as someone who sees a bit of her former college self in him. I definitely was not a jerk, but the insecurity, the victim complex, the trouble with communicating attraction to the opposite sex….these are problems that should be dealt with before dating or else you will a) attract unhealthy minded people and b) most likely not have a good dating or relationship experience. That’s not to say a person must be in the perfect mindset to date or shouldn’t have any issues…but someone with as many issues with women and an anger problem like his really shouldn’t be dating. I shudder to think what will happen when/if he sends messages to women and they don’t always respond.
Still, if MRAL is gonna date or meet friends, I suggest OKCupid over POF. I’ve heard big horror stories about POF. I think OkCupid would suit MRAL better since their demographic tends to be people in their 20s and 30s and it’s a more laid back sort of place too. I would also suggest meetup.com
I had a MRAL-esque friend a few years ago. The only cure for his unnecessary depression was tough love. Sorry MRAL, but you’re gonna keep getting this shit here if you don’t learn to cop on.
1) MRAL show me a picture of about how you believe you’d look as a woman.
2) – More attention, in general. I don’t like feeling ignored. It doesn’t even have to be strictly positive attention. Also, the social confidence this would bring.
How much social confidence do you believe the assaults and harassment I’ve experienced have given me?
You’re always so good at boiling it down concisely. This is exactly what guys who say “women get lots of positive attention” are envisioning. A gorgeous 18-20 year old young woman. Everyone else is invisible to them.
It’s also not objective what “positive attention” is. -_- I’m sure lots of the guys who have harassed me with all sorts of f-ed up crap (often racist too) think they’re giving me “positive attention”. (also by MRAL’s logic, being an Asian woman means I have privilege over a white woman)
lol being trans means you can’t have/don’t want PIV sex? XDXD
ignoring your ignorance….
Scar’s point is not that you are trans but that she has experienced being treated as a man and woman. She knows what you are saying that “Oh men having it worse” is bullishit..
I enjoy being male, it’s who I am, and I want to have PENIS IN VAGINA INTERCOURSE.
I thought you hated vaginas…
*bullshit
I still think you would be happier over at Stormfront. They will agree with you on the whole “young white men are the most oppressed people ever” thing, and you can freely indulge your sexism too!
Also, you hate women as much as NWO or DKM does, you are just a bit less honest about it.
MRAL: It’s hilarious how OMG OFFENDED feminists get when I posit that, considering how often they like to say “men are ALL PRIVILEGED, though they can be disadvantaged in other ways”. That’s exactly what I’m saying re. women. Is that really so horrible? I just don’t get it.
No, you don’t get it. You keep comparing apples to caddilacs and wondering why the pie comes out a metallic, inedible mess.
If you compare women, of a class (poor, ugly, fat, under-educated, over-educated) to men of the same class the women get the short end of the stick.
That some women do better than some men doesn’t change that. You are the math student; so apply some stats (I know it’s a different discipline, but you can work the equations) and see how the medians in the classes don’t overlap, but the outliers do.
You are letting the outliers of one group stand in for the median of the other. It’s bad reasoning, and faulty logic. It’s hurting your sense of how the world works.
Oh my fucking god, is this kid still yammering on? GO AWAY, MRAL.
You do hate women, it’s plain as day from your work here. Oh, and if you think girl on girl bullying gets more attention and people stop it, I could tell you all about my middle school years.
This:
Is more of your half-assed apologizing and it’s why people think you’re abusive.
In short, fuck off.
MRAL, you need to take some responsibility for your actions.
You shouldn’t ever “spazz out” (read: mindlessly attack and demonize other human beings) because you feel bad. Feeling bad never makes it okay. I don’t care if you’ve had a bad day. I don’t care if you’re depressed. “It makes me feel better” is never, ever an appropriate excuse for hurting people.
As others have pointed out, it’s not your call whether it was offensive or not.
But I’m just not good at expressing myself online.
You don’t get to make excuses for what you’ve said here. I have a lot of trouble communicating clearly here sometimes. If I’m misinterpreted (which is what you’re implying has happened, but you’re not outright stating it; I suspect it’s because you actually do mean what you’re saying, but you’re trying to weasel your way out of owning it) I apologize for sending the wrong message, and clarify what I meant. Apologize. Do you understand what that means? It means you take ownership of your own mistake, instead of saying “but it was a mistake, so I can’t be held accountable for it!” That’s not how intention works.
Again, your bad feelings don’t justify your behaviour, not ever. I’m sorry that you’re struggling with depression. I’ve fought with it for several years. Sometimes all I feel willing to do is curl up into a ball on my couch and listlessly cry, wondering if it’s worth the effort to walk 3 feet into the kitchen to find something to eat, because the last thing I ate was that muffin yesterday. It feels shitty. But that will never, ever give me license to go lash out at other people so that they can feel bad too, and so that they’ll notice me. Their feelings matter too.
I also want you to recognize how unbelievably inappropriate it is to go to these people that you use as emotional punching bags and ask them for help with your feelings.
“But I’m just not good at expressing myself online” should be in quotes too, oops.
Too true, too true. “Street harassment is a compliment” is an attitude we hear from them all of the time. And if women express feeling fear over it, then we’re hysterical and misandrist.
I can’t imagine the extra layer of garbage you have to put up with given our culture’s fetishization of Asian women — this is assuming that you’re in America. I should know that, I see your posts here all the time!
Women have a higher rate of depression, MRAL; some people think male depression may be undiagnosed, but even then the claim is that the depression rates are equal. Also, LOL at the idea that being female would improve your body image.
Scar: Teeeeechnically it’s Bad Trans Person Bingo, not Bad Ally Bingo.
@jumbofish
No worries, you didn’t come off as condescending. It’s just that, if all my lurking has taught me one thing, it’s very easy to be an unintentional asshole when you don’t know what you’re talking about, especially online, so I wanted to make sure that I hadn’t been a dick by accident 🙂 And thanks again for clearing that up for me.
I pictured him screaming that at the monitor, his tone laced with a lot of sexual frustration, and I lolled. A lot. It was awesome.
>>Also, LOL at the idea that being female would improve your body image.
I wish we had the transitioning-at-a-whim technology from Iain M. Banks’ Culture novels so MRAL could try it out and STFU already about stuff he doesn’t understand. But then we’d be living in the Culture and there wouldn’t BE any problems with sexism anymore anyway, so the point would be moot…
BlackBloc: Even transitioning-at-a-whim wouldn’t work for MRAL– you need the female gender role education to really get the full YOU ARE TERRIBLE AND THE WAY YOU LOOK IS TERRIBLE AND NO ONE WILL LOVE YOU YOU UGLY BITCH UNLESS YOU BUY ALL OUR PRODUCTS.
Also, LOL at the idea that being female would improve your body image.
You have to laugh or else you’ll just cry.
MRAL, I spent yesterday talking to my therapist (which is a good thing and you should really try it sometime) about how deeply suicidal I felt after finding out that I’ve gone up a pants size. That’s right – gaining about 5 pounds makes me literally want to kill myself. And the “best” part is that, when I called a couple of female friends to cry to them about how ugly and awful I feel, both of them said they’d had the exact same experience, including the “actually wanting to die.” This is how bad society routinely makes women feel about our bodies. It’s very nice that in the imaginary universe inside your head, women are all confident and full of self-love, but here in the real world, it’s fairly hard to find even one woman who has not, at some point in her life, sobbed her eyes out over how she fails to live up to the completely unattainable beauty ideal set for her by society, in which she is supposed to be a size 0 with large, permanently perky, perfectly symmetrical boobs, skin that never wrinkles or breaks out or even has pores at all, hair that never goes grey, lips that are full (but not TOO full!), skin that is tan (but not TOO tan!), legs and armpits and pubic regions that never show a hint of hair, nails that are always perfectly manicured, a perfect fashion sense (and a vast fortune with which to buy clothing and have it tailored to fit her perfect body), and all the other stupid standards we routinely see. I’ve worked with suicidal teens, and I can tell you honestly that literally every young girl I talked to gave “I’m ugly” as one of her reasons why she hated herself. Every. Single. One. (And before you try to twist this into “beautiful girls aren’t suicidal,” quite a few of those kids were conventionally lovely. They were just convinced that it wasn’t good enough because they weren’t perfect, and they were being bombarded 24/7/365 with the message that perfection was the only way to be good enough.)
I know you’ll just go “la la la” and mentally erase this so you can continue with your ongoing narrative about how Nobody Knows The Troubles MRAL’s Seen, but I keep hoping that someday something will at least put a tiny chink in the giant wall of “it’s all about ME ME ME” that you’ve put up between yourself and reality.
I just realized that my phrasing could be taken as cissexist. Obviously, trans women get the YOU ARE UGLY conditioning too. However, because MRAL identifies as male, even if he were in a body typically associated with women he wouldn’t necessarily pick up on the female social conditioning.