Paul Elam has apparently become something of a comedian – though not on purpose. In his latest post on A Voice for Men, he takes on the atheist community for being too in thrall to (wait for it) feminism.
I’ll let him explain:
[T]hey are too religious. Yes, I mean that literally. For when you wipe away all the bombastic bellowing about empiricism and the strident mocking of those who choose a life of faith, what you are left with is a population of people that surrender their reason and cognition as though they were at gunpoint; that hit their knees as fast as any Catholic…to worship at the altar of feminism.
His proof? Several years ago someone at Atheist Nexus posted a link to a Men’s News Daily column of his, and – get this! – some feminists responded!
You can go here to see all the horrible things these evil cultish feminist atheists said. Like, for example:
I guess I’m a feminist, but I really like men and these are some of the things I love about them:
Protectiveness is a positive trait in men that women who want to have babies look for. We also like passion and some recklessness, but you won’t get me to admit that to my daredevil husband…..
Confidence; men usually have more of it and it is mostly a postive trait.
The ability to make decisions quickly.
Physical strength and endurance are helpful in many family situations. Ahem.
Penises. You have them, lots of us like them. I know it’s not technically a “trait”, but I had to put that in.
You can practically taste the man-hate there!
Elam, I should note, ignores that comment. No, what’s got his underpants in a wad is this comment:
The whole web site mensnewsdaily.com is a sad overreaction to the growing equality of women in society.
Evidently he’s been stewing about this remark for more than two years.
In fact, if you go and take a look at it, the discussion on Atheist Nexus wasn’t … really … all that feminist. Yes, several people criticized Elam and mensnewsdaily as “extreme,” but one of those people also criticized radical feminists as similarly “extreme.” Some of the commenters explicitly identified themselves as feminist; others explicitly criticized feminism. Nonetheless, the discussion somehow managed to be the politest conversation about gender I’ve run across online in a long, long time.
Seriously. Go take a look at it. Then consider how Elam sums it all up:
Apparently they can’t even handle 50 years of loud mouthed arts majors without drinking the Kool-aide and going brain dead. There was scarcely a voice among them that did not wallow in the ersatz enlightenment so common to feminist ideologues.
And then he moves on to whatever this is:
Feminism, as far as ideology goes, has been very effective at using human reproductive realities to co-opt other movements. In fact, from the American Civil Rights Movement to Occupy Wall Street, feminism has progressed without paying its own way, but rather by sending women in to other social arenas and wheedling men into supporting them. The Borg would be proud if they had emotions. Resistance is Futrelle.
Ho ho! Futrelle rhymes with futile! Sort of! Lest Elam and co. become too overwhelmed with pride for this clever wordplay, I should note that some junior high schoolers beat him to the punch back in the late 70s. Or maybe it was grade schoolers. I really don’t remember.
I’m less clear about the rest of his argument about “human reproductive realities.” Apparently it’s a fancy way of saying that dudes only support feminism so they can get laid. Another highly original notion.
Elam’s other piece of evidence that feminism has taken over the atheist community? PZ Myers.
He quotes this evil athio-feminazi ideologue arguing that if male atheists want to get more women involved in the atheist community, they should:
Learn to shut up and listen. Seriously. You want women to find your organization pleasant and interesting and worth contributing to? Then don’t form panels full of men trying to figure out what women want, talking over women who try to get a word in edgewise, belittling women’s suggestions with jokes, and trying to determine how We Well-Meaning Men can give Those Women what we think they want. You are assuming an authority and presuming that it is in your power to give it to the minority, when what you should be doing is deferring to that minority and giving them your attention, letting them speak and shape your organization.
God – or, if you prefer, Imaginary Entity – forbid that male atheists actually listen to women explain why they might feel unwelcome in the mostly male (and not particularly feminist friendly) atheist community.
You really think feminism has taken over the atheist community? Take a look at Reddit’s Atheism subreddit, where, recently, a woman who recently described how she had been raped was attacked as a liar and a slut in a thread filled with rape jokes. Or go back a little further to the Elevatorgate brouhaha, where an atheist blogger who politely mentioned in a podcast that she doesn’t really like being hit on by strange men in elevators at 4 AM drew the ire of countless angry atheist dudes, including Richard Fucking Dawkins himself? (In case you want to revisit that bit of nastiness, I wrote about “Elevatorgate” in several blog posts; here are some reactions from decidedly non-feminist atheists.)
This is a movement that “worship[s] at the altar of feminism[?]” Not really seeing it, dude.
But again, congrats on the whole Futrelle/futile thing. Genius!
No. “Straight cis people” is fucking fine. I don’t like your argument, because it’s the same one used to call transgender people “transgenders” or “a tran”.
You also pinged the ‘Because English’ bingo square in Bad Ally Bingo.
The last part of your post though? Yes.
This does not excuse your appalling behavior. And you don’t even bother to try and apologize.
Get lost.
I like how you start with a tacit approval that you will get more negative attention and just shrug that off as ‘confidence building’.
Oh man, you’ve never even heard of women in STEM have you? Never you mind that what you just said about PZ was wrong, that’s fucking hilarious.
Worried about your weight, your boobs, your legs, your shaving, your hips, your tummy, your face, your hair? How about shoulders, proportions, makeup, and complexion?
Truly, a solid basis if ever there was one. As it happens, this is the first thing you’ve said you MIGHT be right about. No good data yet.
You’re wrong, although it’s unlikely you’d have been made fun of for being bullied by a girl.
I like how you’re not even noticing little things like having tow orry about rape.
You are such a piece of shit you know that? It’s all about YOU. Only MRALs experiences count right? I was bullied from elementary school all the way through highschool. Mostly by guys in elementary, then it evened out between the sexes afterwards. No one fucking stepped in. In elementary when a boy punched me in the stomach for no reason and I went crying to the teacher and I was ignored. Some female privilege I had eh? Boys will be boys eh?
I’m sorry what you went through because bullying sucks, but you’re still an arrogant little twit so yeah, do get lost.
And no one cares that you find them unattractive, but for someone who claims he is so oppressed and has claimed he doesn’t like his looks, you’re still pretty judgmental about women’s looks. And then you have the audacity to freak out when other posters talk about the men they like. Learn to control yourself.
Yeah, having a complete stranger scream “PUSSY” at me on my birthday did wonders for my social confidence, let me tell you. /sarcasm
This is not normal. This is not dependent on gender. Seek professional help.
Your posts here have made it clear that you know nothing about PZ Meyers, beyond what you have made up.
Yeah, I’m sure breasts and hips and body hair that society deems unacceptable if visible on a woman would just do wonders for your body image. Especially with all the celebrities and models and magazines and ads highlighting all your flaws.
Wrong. Women have higher rates of depression. They are just less successful than men in suicide attempts. Plus women have the added benefit of potential post partum depression.
No. Girls are horrifically vicious to each other in junior high and high school, and the other girls will absolutely turn a blind eye to insure that they aren’t targeted next. And boys don’t tend to step into “cat fights.” It sucks that you were bullied, but being a girl would not make anyone more likely to step in.
Edit: Cis women have the added potential of PPD, sorry.
” I don’t enjoy places like the Spearhead or Reddit because I do find some of the offensive jokes there tiresome, but then people offend me here too, so I’m sort of in a middle ground.”
So stop being so lazy and go find some online spaces that work better for you. If none currently exist (doubtful), create one. You don’t get to modify this space to be more accepting of your anger towards women just because that would be awesome for you.
Also, show your work! It’s not enough to just keep saying “women are privileged”, you need to actually prove it before stating it as a given and working from there. So far you’ve failed to prove it to anyone here, so it’s silly to just keep going “women are privileged and therefore…”. The list that you gave above is not a list of female privileges, it’s a list of specific areas in which you personally aren’t happy with your life and think for some reason that if you were female you would be happier.
You’re correct that you shouldn’t have thrown a tantrum here tonight (again), MRAL. And the solution to that is to not do it any more. See how simple that is?
Now go away.
So do trans men who choose to birth children.
Are we DONE with the trans erasure tonight? Please can we be?
I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but can we get it right please?
Scar, I’m really sorry. My post was intended to cover women, cis or trans, to counter MRAL’s belief that his life would somehow be magically better if he were a woman. I did not intend to erase trans men, and I’m sorry.
Hi MRAL, let me total up for you the ‘privileges’ I gained from transitioning from male to female.
– A $15k salary cut
– Massively increased risk of sexual assault
– Being talked over constantly by men
– Being totally ignored in predominantly male groups of people (unless I make myself appear to be sexually available)
– Having my decisions questioned based on my sex, not my competency
– Being assumed to have my ‘period’ if I’m emotional over an issue or I refuse to back down over an issue
– Being treated like a piece of meat
– Being talked down to at work by people who are my JUNIORS because apparently women shouldn’t do my job
– Being assumed to be stupid because of my gender
– Being constantly condescended to, then being chastised by my boss when I speak up against it
– Feeling horribly unsafe when I walk anywhere alone at night – and even being in my house alone at night
– Being yelled at and catcalled at in frightening and aggressive ways by male strangers
– Having to watch my drink like a fucking hawk in bars
– Being asked “Is Mr Scar there?” when I answer the phone to cold-callers
– Being told that I shouldn’t be allowed into the military or ‘physical’ trades
– Men trying to rip me off when selling me ‘male’ products
– Having my dress sense questioned and critiqued as a judgement on my worth as both a person and my skill-set
– Fearing becoming homeless because there are no women’s shelters in my city
– Being weaker and less able to defend myself against a male of equivalent size (and even much smaller males)
– Having any athletic achievements treated in a condescending and insulting manner (“Aww, isn’t that cute, she thinks she can play [sport]!”)
– Having my academic achievements pooh-poohed as a woman when they were respected as a man
– Likewise having most of my life achievements pooh-poohed now that I’m a woman, when they were lauded as a male
– Being lauded as a motherfucking STUD for my sexual conquests as a man, but being seen as a tawdry, worthless skank if I reveal those stats now
– Having my weight criticised for the first time in my life
– Spending twice as much on the equivalent clothes with 4/5ths of my previous income
– Having people talk to my breasts instead of my face (cute the first few times, but not so much after 5 years of it)
– Being expected to wear cosmetics and movement restricting clothing as part of the environment I work in, when I wasn’t before
– MASSIVE mood swings from the hormones (seriously, you don’t know how good you got it)
– Stretch marks and aching tits
– Having my food and alcohol choices questioned and critiqued
– Being expected to breed or be seen as a frigid bitch and therefore worthless to society
– Having doors held for me. Sometimes.
There’s a lot more, but that’s enough to process for now, yes?
Thank you for the apology, Lauralot.
I’m don’t really want to get in a debate. Shaenon asked me what I think, and that is what I think.
Here are your choices, MRAL.
1. You explain, in detail, why you believe women as a group are privileged, and you explain it in such a way that at least some people here agree with you.
2. You stop stating “women are privileged” and expecting anyone to go along with the conclusions you draw based on that theory.
No dodging, put up or shut up.
Or of course, there’s one more option.
3. Instead of trolling a site where you already know that nobody agrees with you, you go find one where you can say “women are privileged” and most people won’t call you on it.
You think? /sarcasm
If you can’t chat like a grown up, go to 4-chan or reddit or whatever. The internet is full of brats just like you, just find them. Being offensive and offended is not a good middle ground.
Yeah sure. I remembered Holly’s “offer” to you, did you liked it? Is being catcalled worthy attention? About being harassed or assaulted, where does it stop? Also, mot of the times you talk about your geeky interest, like Game of Throne or whatever, you’re accused of fishing for attention. Unless female-MRAL only has girly hobbies?
How would it be different for female-MRAL?
You don’t get to speak about what’s healthy or not. Not before you start working on your own mountain of issue.
You don’t like the role model and heroes of male-MRAL? 99% of those of female-MRAL are defined primarily (even when not only) by their looks. They can be strong, intelligent, funny but only as long as they’re pretty. Same things for advertisement and most messages society sends her, it’s either about family, or looks, or a combination of both. “What do you mean you don’t have a boyfriend, girl? Have you seen the way you eat, you fat cow!” will be the standard. Welcome to the struggle to reject this message, that’s a fight for a lifetime.
I heard the opposite but might be wrong. However, I don’t really care since I am currently depressed.
I was bullied in -what’s the American equivalent, Junior High School i believe? – by boys and girls. I still have a small blue scar on my hand and tons of emotional scars from that time. Nobody in the school stepped in. Same thing happened several times in summer camp. A few time some adults stepped in, with very small results.
Hate you bully. Hate your lousy friends, be mad at adult who did helped you. But don’t hold half of the world for imaginary wrong doings.
Transition if you think that would make you happier (you can still date woman: try to google “lesbians”) and get help. But above all get out.
Because you’ll lose such a debate.
You know women have it way worse than you.
The only reason why you think life would be ‘better’ as a woman is because you think women are on exactly the same level as you, but get to blame all their problems on men and get away with it.
Acknowledging that their problems are real and the product of a sexist and misogynistic society just makes you feel worse about you being such a ‘failure’.
You either need to tell society to get fucked with its expectations of you and deem yourself NOT to be a failure and that you are NOT hard-done-by, or you need to get off your ass and meet those stupid expectations instead of whining that you don’t meet them.
Because in your current state, you’re just pathetic.
Grow up.
What’s the transition stuff all of a sudden? It’s weird, what makes you think I’m interested in that? I enjoy being male, it’s who I am, and I want to have PENIS IN VAGINA INTERCOURSE.
And no, Scar, I don’t think that. I’m just writing a paper as I talk on here, and I don’t have the energy to do that shit right now. I’ll concede that women don’t have WAY more privileges than men, and they have their disadvantages, but I will not accept women have it worse. They don’t. At least not statistically significantly (haha).
MRAL, if you don’t want to debate, don’t make claims about how your life would be better if [whatever circumstance]. The thing about making claims is that people tend to debate their validity, or ask you to back them up, and then debate the validity of the information you use to back up your claims.
So why don’t you stop making claims here and either find a space on the Web that fits you better, or get off the Internet and talk to a professional about your overwhelming feelings of inadequacy?
I think Kyrie is onto something – 4chan is pretty much MRALs spiritual homeland. Surely there must be some people there who want to talk about Radiohead and Game of Thrones.
@ MRAL
Virtually EVERYONE will get bullied at some point in their lives. Most bullies have been bullied. It’s wrong but it happens.
The kindness and understanding that you have been extended by a lot of people on this site is rejected by you in the most offensive manner. People here have offered to meet you, talk to you, correspond with you, why? Because, like most feminists, they are caring, decent humans. You decide to ignore this and stick with standard MRA diatribes; ugly, stupid, attention seeking gibberish.
I wrote a while ago that you were on a crossroads – on the one side, Paul Elam and his gaggle of embittered keyboard cowards, welcoming you to a lifetime of irrelevance and misplaced anger, on the other side, learning tolerance, empathy and understanding that the world is a lot bigger than your laptop.
MRAL, you’re 19, as far as I know a virgin, you consider yourself unattractive and probably burn with envy at the female attention that “alphas/jocks” get. Get over yourself. You seem to be emotionally stunted and having a very late adolescene.
Let me let you into a little secret, ditch the MRA cultish bullshit, join OKCupid, Fetlife, damn, even join POF.com and get yourself out there. You’ll find that many women, mostly feminists, could not care less about “alphas/jocks” and are instead looking for a sensitive respectful guy to play with, maybe leading to more.
You know what though? If you use it as another avenue to get more negative attention then that’s all you’ll ever get – your misogny feeding off the rejection that you cause.
You hate women because you fear them. You fear them because you feel they’ve rejected you or aren’t interested in you. Deal with it. Prepare yourself for rejection and actually talk to women – how about a female version of yourself?
You don’t get to decide whether it was offensive or not – intent isn’t magic. You shouldn’t have spazzed out, it’s why you’re on moderation. Pick up the phone, make an appointment, and get help, MRAL.
Stop saying I hate women.
Prove this. Don’t just vomit words onto the keyboard, back. up. your. assertions. with. evidence or gtfo. I thought you were an academic?
zhinxy:
This is pretty much exactly what I believe, but I identify as a member of a theistic religion. Huh.
Scourge of God.