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Actual discussion taking place on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit

Just another day on r/mensrights, dealing with the terrible injustices facing men today in a thoughtful and compassionate way.

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Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Ami: Let’s keep it in the realm of women…not little girls. That is just sick.

Also, the majority is the majority. If 51% of men think that younger women are more attractive…it is not incorrect to say “The majority of men value younger women”. Personally, I think the numbers are higher than 51% (more like 80%), but 51% proves the point,

@M Dubz: Yes, let’s shorten the gap even further. Lets take a 21 year old and a 21 year old + 1 day poll. The point of this is the age disparity. If you take a middle aged man, give him a choice between two women, one 10 years younger and one 10 years older, he most likely will pick the younger. Out of the 1000, the majority will actually want to date the younger woman.

Also, this is about attraction, not starting a relationship. If a 35 year old man walked into a bar, he would most likely be drawn to the younger women than the older women.

In fact, some women are even pissed off that men aren’t ‘cat calling” them since they got older and/or have children:

http://www.parentsconnect.com/spills/where_cat_calls_gone.html

Do you know what most people look for in a relationship? Do they enjoy their time with the other person. It seems that only in feminist circles does one base their dating decisions on “power imbalances”.

@Pecunium: We are not talking about law, we are talking about sexual attraction. Specifically male to female sexual attraction. Law should at least hear the minorities points. In dating and sexual attraction, there is no such thing. The law at least tries to be fair and reasonable. People don’t have to be fair and reasonable when it comes to dating and saying who they think is attractive or not.

I am rarely in a pissy mood. You just perceive it that way. Maybe you are projecting your own unhappiness on to me and claiming it as mine. I am pretty happy right now. Just got laid and am watching an episode of Spartacus before I go to bed. So yea…I am pretty content and happy right now. Imagine me smoking a cigarette with a big shit eating grin on my face.

You want me to account for it? Fine. Pay me. I am not your student who has to “show his work” to you. If you pay me, I will call the report “Why men like younger women…and also butterflies have the ability to fly. But I don’t want to state the obvious twice”.

The point of the age gap was to show an equal gap in age (relative to the man) with one being younger and one being older.

@BlackBloc: It isn’t the money and wealth directly. It is what that wealth can buy and the social status that comes with having money. Also, do you not think that wealth and social status add to a man’s overall attractiveness for a lot of women?

@Dracula: I don’t agree with all of the stereotypes, just the ones that I continuously observe in real life. Popular culture and media tells men to buy women drinks and take them out on dates in order to meet a sexual partner. I think these are both counter-productive. So there are two I don’t believe in. Name a few others and I bet I don’t believe in them as well.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I meant swallow as in “Believe is generally true without meaningful examination of the facts.”, not “Accept as the ideal model.” For example:

Popular culture and media tells men to buy women drinks and take them out on dates in order to meet a sexual partner.

That there would be women being impressed by money, which you believe is widely applicable to the point of being nearly universal.

Bostonian
9 years ago

I still wonder what happens to women between 26-49 in Brandon World. In the real world most women are marrying and having kids around in that age range, but I guess Brandon World works very differently.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Brandon, you made the claim. Back it up, or it’s just shit you pulled out of your ass.

But you can’t back it up, because you’re wrong. You claimed that the issues of who/how people are attracted are objective. There is no way to say that’s not what you said because you said the explanation was statistical. It’s not, and “standard deviation”, you don’t understand the concept, or you wouldn’t have used it.

This is typical for you. You don’t know when you’ve stepped off the deep end are in over your head. The crowd here is widely read. They impress the hell out of me. I’m a bit of polymath. There are people here who are experts. I can’t compete with them. You think you can best all of them. You can’t. This isn’t a day room bull-session, you can’t bluff your way out.

Trying to bluff, on the internet is stupid. If someone think you are wrong, they can go and check. If you misuse a concept (like standard deviation) the people who know, will spot it, and take you apart.

And you don’t get it. It happens to you again and again, and in your Zaphodian Self-centeredness you don’t notice. You think it’s personal. It’s not. Do people think you are a narcissistic jerk? Yes. But that’s not the thing that makes you a laughingstock, it’s that you aren’t intelligent enough to know when you’ve been bested.

Maybe you are happy as a pig in slop, if so it’s not showing up here. The only time you mention anything about your life it’s an attempt to show us how great it is, and how we don’t understand the joy that it is to be Brandon.

Which is in contrast to most of the other posters here. We talk about our lives, just because we do, not in an attempt to score points. I don’t care when you got laid. I don’t care if you are shagging so much you’ve chafed your pecker raw. It’s not important to me when people have sex. I don’t care if your co-workers like you. I don’t care if you were the king of your prom, or an outcast whom nobody talked to.

What I care about is how you treat others, and from what you’ve said, you treat people like shit. It’s all about Brandon. You’d violate people’s privacy (and break the law), to stock up on defenses against a crime that rarely happens. You’d stiff your kid if you thought it’s mother didn’t treat you with enough respect.

You have no principles. You tried to make point, by how long you refused to make a post to meet “The Brandon Challenge” of how independent you were. You failed. If you were going to knuckle under, the time to do it was right away. This was you being either needing to prove to us how smart you are (and how’s that going for you… not how smart you think you are, but how smart the audience at home thinks you are), or being goaded by not being able to respond to being mocked.

You were pwned.

And you aren’t smart enough to see it.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@…Brandon? Woo, long time no talk-to:

“Also, the majority is the majority. If 51% of men think that younger women are more attractive…it is not incorrect to say “The majority of men value younger women”. Personally, I think the numbers are higher than 51% (more like 80%), but 51% proves the point,”

It is not incorrect. It is incorrect to go from “the majority of men do x” to “men do x.” Even if its true in the majority, it will still be wrong for 49% of men. This is why stereotypes suck ass.

err…

“I don’t agree with all of the stereotypes, just the ones that I continuously observe in real life.”

Which ones are these, exactly? Cause I have a feeling you don’t actually observe any of them, you just hear about how they are so true from the types of people (bigots) who say stereotypes are so true.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Dave: And I could swear that was what most of us were talking about.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

Brandon is, of course, immune to confirmation bias, on account of the Brandonyness.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Viscaria:

Of course Brandon doesn’t suffer from confirmation bias! He just tends to find evidence to confirm things he already believed while disregarding the evidence that goes against said beliefs.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

To be fair, Dave, Brandon did enter the discussion with this gem:

OMG, men have standards…holy shit! Cue feminist outrage because men have the audacity to see younger women as more attractive. It’s like feminists bitch about sexual objectification because men actually don’t see them in a sexual way. Jealously is a bitch, ain’t it ladies!

It isn’t quite the same as saying that women are working in collusion with the government because we’re jealous of teenaged prostitutes… but, you got admit it’s pretty close!

Kyrie
Kyrie
9 years ago

@M Dubz: Yes, let’s shorten the gap even further. Lets take a 21 year old and a 21 year old + 1 day poll. The point of this is the age disparity. If you take a middle aged man, give him a choice between two women, one 10 years younger and one 10 years older, he most likely will pick the younger. Out of the 1000, the majority will actually want to date the younger woman.

Is it just me or is this poll just very silly? Why can’t men choose between younger, older and same age? (plus or minus 5 to 10 years, who cares) Because I’m pretty sure that they would choose “same age”. Because in my experience, they do. (feel free to point out that I’m biased if you want people, as I don’t have a shred of objective evidence)

Pecunium
9 years ago

Dave: I knew that. But Brandon being Brandon might not have noticed.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Kyrie: As ages increase, the narrowness of the gap which is “the same age” widens. From a purely empiric POV, I’ve had two relationships with a zero-year age gap (one at 19, one at 27). Both were disasters.

As I said, my range is -12 years (i was 33, she was 21, it lasted 10 years), and +20 (twice, I was 20, and I was 25). Those went pretty well. When I was in my teens/twenties I tended to have my encounters with women who were 5-10 years older than I was. In my mid-late twenties they tended to be 3-5 years younger (part of that was where I was. The Army has lots of younger soldiers, and the ones my age tended to be married and monogamous).

More to the point, given random selection of attractive women, I’ll wager most people will gravitate toward those who are closer to them in age than not.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Yes, for someone who claims to not believe in culture and claims it has no influence on him, Brandon seems to have swallowed most if not all of the tired ass cultural tropes about men and women whole hog.

Brandon, it’s nice that you just got laid. Although I will say I find it odd that instead of snuggling or chilling watching tv with “Ashley,” you choose to come here and get owned. Oh, well, we’ve all got our kinks.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

>>>Pressuring straightedge people into drinking is not cool. DX

That encounter was a minefield in many, many ways. I was 21 in a strange city, she was a 28+ local. She said she was long divorced, but it ended up I noticed at the end of the encounter that she had a ring, and there was drama afterwards (though I was shielded from it… I just heard there was drama, not what it entailed). She was too drunk to give meaningful consent (or even to understand when I tried explaining what ‘straight edge’ is) so I brought her home instead of letting her go on the streets in that state, and we waited until she had slept off the alcohol before doing anything. (I think I told that story on this blog already, once.)

Some people live for those stories. In my case it just reaffirmed that this whole bar pickup scene is just not worth the hassle compared to casual encounters off CL, OKC or the adult sites I frequent. I’m a computer and math geek. The inefficiency of trying to find someone to bring home in a bar context just gals me, when I could be filling up questionnaires and finding *exactly* the small contingent of people in my city that are kink and poly friendly right away.

Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Hellkell: What cultural tropes have I swallowed? Also, Ashley has her own place and she left. Which is why I was half way through a Spartacus episode to begin with. It’s hard to cuddle with someone that left my apartment.

@Pecunium: Again, you are not my teacher and I am not writing a research paper for you to grade. If you don’t like my opinion and you think it is wrong…that’s fine. But I find it rather arrogant of you to demand that I prove my point to you. Just like you said…there is the internet, go look it up yourself if you so choose.

@David: And why is it creepy to say that younger women often draw more men in than older women?

Also, claiming widespread exploitation is incorrect. If you want to say that 18 year old prostitutes in the Caucuses are being exploited, I can agree with that. However, an 18 year old working at the Bunny Ranch is hardly being exploited.

In fact, the majority of the exploitation comes from the fact that prostitution is illegal. I am pro legalization not because I want men to have the ability to get laid by paying for it but because making it illegal is actually harmful to women. Prostitution wont go away and making it legal will make it safer for women.

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

Uh, Brandon, if you don’t want to prove your points… WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH US?

Bostonian
9 years ago

Seconded, ozymandias. Brandon, you already set your logic, such as it is, with no evidence, in front of us. If you do not care to convince us, it would be more believable is you just, well rested your “case”

Also bringing Ashley into things where she is not really relevant makes you look kind of silly.

I will admit to still kind of wondering where women go between the ages of 26 and 49 in Brandon World.

In my reality, they are dating, establishing their careers, having kids, and marrying.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

What tropes? Every claim you’ve set forth in this thread, dipshit. Are you really this dense?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

And I somehow doubt you give a shit about the safety of any woman, much less a prostitute. Nice try, though.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Brandon: If you don’t care… shut up.

But you do care. You care enough to keep coming back to tell us how much you don’t care that you failed completely to actually present a defensible case. You’ll notice that the things people tell you here (well, maybe you don’t), are either analyses of your logical failures, or contain citations.

That’s because it’s not only polite, it’s the only way to actually move from, “It’s just opinion.” to something approaching objective fact (or at least insomuch as objective fact can be determined in matters of culture and socialisation).

Your problem is that many of us have, to greater or lesser degrees, studied it. You have beliefs which are contrary to fact, so it’s convenient for you to tell me to “go find the truth”, and when I find more studies which say you are full of shit, you will say those aren’t the right studies.

It’s not that I’m your teacher, it’s that you are making factual claims without support.

If you expect me to be persuaded, you have to persuade me. It’s not my job to go and persuade myself for you. It’s not the purview of students it’s the obligation of anyone who makes an argument.

That you don’t realise this is part of the reason people say you are ignorant, and not well-educated, no matter how intelligent you may, in fact, be. You don’t care about being right, you care about posturing about how you aren’t listened to, or whining that people take your words out of context.

We are listening to you, and; to your detriment, we are paying attention to context. You don’t argue well, and you refuse to be consistent. When you lose a point, you pretend you said something else (money = attractive supra). It good for you that ass grows back, because you keep losing yours.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

I think he does care about being right, and wishes we’d all just accept without question that he’s the rightest right who ever righted.

ithiliana
9 years ago

So Brandon: ADMIT IT DAVID PWNED YOU AND YOU CRAWLED BACK AND ARE FOLLOWING HIS RULES AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

It good for you that ass grows back, because you keep losing yours.

Brandon has a starfish for a butt? Handy!

ithiliana
9 years ago

Oh, and the “you’re not my teacher, I don’t have to do anything you say, it’s just my opinon” crap was old the first time you used it, and unlike wine, it ain’t improving with age.

Why DO you keep trying to convince people here, and why DON’T you see what a massive FAIL you are at doing so?

Pecunium
9 years ago

Bagelsan: “Ass grows back” is a an Army phrase.

“Damn, the First Sergeant just too a piece out of my ass!”

“Good for you that ass grows back.”

Magpie
9 years ago

What does ‘straightedge’ mean?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago
Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

@Ozy: Who said I was arguing with you? Maybe you are arguing with me. Last time I checked, I wasn’t the one demanding you provide me with links, statistics and other research. (See pecunium’s responses).

@Pecunium: Who said I don’t care? I care about a lot of things. I just don’t see the need to go hunting around on the internet for links to studies to prove my point to you. I see it as wasted effort, since you will no doubt be highly dismissive of any links I provide. I might as well talk to a wall.

I don’t expect to persuade you. I expect that you will disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. I could say the sky is blue and you will say something like “Not now, it is midnight where I am”.

@ithiliana: Who said I am trying to persuade you?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Somewhat OT, but it always amuses me when I go see a band that are notorious for fairly epic substance usage and there are tons of straight edge kids in the audience. I’m always curious how they rationalize their support of bands who may as well be wearing vodka bottles and coke baggies as a daisy chain necklace.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Brandon, we don’t disagree with just for the sake of it, we disagree with you because you do not know how to support a claim you make, move goalposts, and generally act like a douchrocket. You want us to just take your word for things. When your word is ill-informed, solipsistic, and just plain wrong most of the time, that will not happen.

Cassandra, that is funny. The straightedge kids in the scene growing up were pretty intolerable in their smugness. A lot of them are now suburban dads who love themselves a beer or two.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

The smugness kind of makes me want to provoke them, because I’m a big meanie. Like, you know that the band you’re here to see just offered me beer while I was interviewing them, right?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

That’s evil. Funny, but evil. It’s relatively easy to be straightedge in high-school. At least it was way back the dark ages.

lowquacks
lowquacks
9 years ago

@CassandraSays

I never quite got the straight-edge ethos either. I have no problem at all from people abstaining from drugs and promiscous sex, but I’m not sure why the two are lumped together (vaguely slut-shamey response to the sex-drugs-rock-roll cliche?), or why it is such a big deal or part of one’s identity that one does so.

Ian Mackaye always seemed so self-righteous about all of that too, even though I do like Minor Threat and love Fugazi.

mralieutenant
9 years ago

The idea is that straight-edges abstain from hedonism, or whatever. Free love and drinking and drugs basically personify that. For our culture.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

The straight-edge thing seems even more hilarious if you include the part about sex, and you’ve spent any time around bands. The sex part of sex, drugs, and rock and roll is a cliche because it’s mostly true.

I think the whole thing would annoy me less if it was just about substance abuse and not sex too. The sex part does make it feel slut-shamey. I don’t love being lectured about drug use, but it’s a lot less intrusive and socially problematic than the sex stuff.

lowquacks
lowquacks
9 years ago

@CassandraSays

I agree completely. Personally, I like sex and drugs, but I have no problems with people not liking that, or even not wanting to hang around me because I enjoy sex and drugs or while I’m enjoying either.

Basing your scene around a song attacking drug users as “the living dead” and also being against people having sex because… I’m not sure actually? Not as cool. There’s very few edge types where I live, but I hear stuff about USian straight-edge kids actively snatching drinks and such. Ugh.

Magpie
9 years ago

Wowser punks! or punk Wowsers! It’s marvellous the things I learn from manboobz 🙂

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Sooo… Brandon is fervently trying to argue that he is not arguing or caring? Huh… Now to read back on what the actual topic was supposed to be.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

The thing is, there are some problematic issues with sex in relation to the music industries (groupies who are underage, bands sleeping with fans who worship them and are only fucking them as a sort of payment for the privilege of being allowed to hang out with them). If someone was to try to create a scene around addressing those issues, cool. But the idea that non-committed sex is inherently bad because…something? And that this is somehow related to drug users being zombies, is just kind of stupid and socially unhelpful.

lowquacks
lowquacks
9 years ago

@CassandraSays

Precisely. If straight edge were more “how about being decent people with regards to sex?” and “how about being sensible or aiming to minimise harm with regard to drug use?”, I’d respect it a lot more. It’d also be a fair bit harder to turn into catchy little self-righteous anthems, but I’m sure the various angsty youths of Washington, DC and so on would be able to deal.

As it stands, straight edge seems to stem from taking USian sex and drug education at face value and be mostly a pedestal to look down at the rest of rock music from.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

It does all seem a bit too close to DARE for comfort. Just because your DARE officer told you that one bong hit will turn you into a crack addict…

And yeah, I’d be all for a movement to address some of the questionable sexual ethics in the various music scenes (especially metal – really, can we please do that?). But I think straight edge is harming rather than helping in terms of attitudes towards sexuality.

Magpie
9 years ago

I grew up in a family that regarded grog, smoking, drugs, and gambling as BAD THINGS. When I first went out into the world, it took me a while to get the hang of understanding that other people who were doing these ‘bad things’ were ‘good people’. I still reckon they are ‘bad things’ for me to do, but I don’t go around telling other people it’s bad unless they specifically ask my opinion, or offer them to kids. And I say “good on you” when someone says they are trying to give it up.

I am very glad that manners have changed regarding smoking in a non-smokers house.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

“I am very glad that manners have changed regarding smoking in a non-smokers house.”

Me too. Even when I smoked I would never have lit up in a random person’s house – that’s rude.

Magpie
9 years ago

In the past it was rude for a non-smoker to not supply an ashtray at the table! I’m happy to go out on the verandah with my smoking mates so we can keep up the conversation.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Ah, the 70s. I’m glad that was over before I was old enough to worry about smoke seeping into my nice clothes in enclosed spaces.

I can kind of see why being expected to go outside bothers people in cold climates, but in warm ones I just don’t see the issue.

Magpie
9 years ago

My parents were given ashtrays as an engagement present, even though neither they nor anyone in their family smoked. It was just what you gave people, like tupperware or casserole dishes.

And I think I gave a stronger impression than I meant to, when I said I gave my opinion when asked. I don’t literally say “it’s bad!”. 😉

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

When I got married we got tons of booze-related gifts (wine AND martini glasses, tumblers for whiskey, wine saver thingy for the bottles, wine rack). I remember wondering if people were trying to tell us something.

Magpie
9 years ago

Must be the same reason people give me soap, bibble bath, perfume for Christmas.