Just another day on r/mensrights, dealing with the terrible injustices facing men today in a thoughtful and compassionate way.
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We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
We Hunted The MammothJust another day on r/mensrights, dealing with the terrible injustices facing men today in a thoughtful and compassionate way.
@Caraz
Now that you mention it: http://jezebel.com/5877398/new-anti+cheese-ad-campaign-is-pure-evil
I still think EN is an MRA bot, possibly programmed by Meller.
http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2012/01/24/mall-girls-galerianki-polish-teens-who-exchange-sex-for-smartphones/
Yeah, I have read/watched docos on girls from 1st world Asian cities (hong kong, Seoul etc) who engage in the same activities. Of course MRAs always have an excuse why it’s ok for 40+ yo men to have sex with underage teenage girls.
makomk: I don’t think you’re going to find a huge groundswell of support here for the continued criminalization of sex work. (BTW, the polite term is “sex work,” not “prostitution” and certainly not “prostituted woman.”) I know we have some commenters who are in support of it, but nearly everyone I’ve talked to about the matter has been in support of decriminalization, if not legalization.
We just think that “women’s attractiveness peaks at 21” and “feminists are against sex work because they can’t stand the competition” are making our side look bad.
DingDingDing!
Also, this hand-wringing over guys buying gifts for their 16 year old girlfriends is utter bullshit. Young teens, male and female, many of whom have run away from abusive homes and are on the streets, are being forced into prostitution by criminals. And the johns barely get a slap on the wrist. Just look at the Marvell Scott case. He paid a pimp for a 14 year old girl on Times Square. The girl was so scared that another teen had to go up to his room with them to coax her into it. His punishment for this was 20 days community service.
I seem to have touched a nerve in some of these trolls.
You’re off to a bad start, I don’t believe that’s a sensible explanation at all. It seems to me that legislators are trying to protect people who are too young to drink alcohol legally (in the US) from engaging in a dangerous profession.
I don’t live in the UK, but they do seem to go overboard when it comes to sex laws. If what you’re saying is true about them trying to put a “full stop” to prostitution, then I totally disagree with that. I think prostitution should be legalized to protect sex workers. That’s what the feminists I’m friends with in the US believe as well. 😉
And a terrible ending. Once again, you’re offending any self-respecting woman over 21 by assuming they’re jealous of prostitutes…. or something. If sex for money replaces committed relationships for you, chances are most women wouldn’t want to put up with you anyway, unless she’s one of those scary ‘golddiggers’ I’ve been hearing about.
I suppose I should have used “sex worker” and “sex work,” but in my attempts to understand the broken-hedded MRAs I’ve picked up some of their bad language habits.
I don’t understand this “jealous of prostitutes” thing at all.
Or rather, I do understand it, in the context where a relationship is just a very high-stakes sex work transaction, where the man puts in lots of money and in return the woman puts in lots of time and sex acts.
But not only am I not jealous of sex workers, I am extra not jealous of anyone whose relationship actually looks like that.
(Especially since in practice, those relationships are more often “the man puts in a piddling amount of money and in return the woman puts in lots of time and sex acts.” Paying for dinner is nice and all, but it wouldn’t get you a half hour with an actual escort. If you think a girlfriend is nothing but an informal sex worker, by god you should pay her like one.)
makmonk: Do I think prostitution should be legal? I’m mixed. I tend to think the selling ought not be, but the buying should. I say tend, because that’s problematic too.
But… I do think that it ought not be legal for anyone who can’t vote to be bought and sold; twenty minutes at a time. I have a really hard time believing that 16 year olds are flocking to the trade because they think the work is fun. I sort of wonder what you think the, “better alternatives” are, that the people looking to make it illegal to buy sex from a minor aren’t proposing. Should the Government become the pimp? Set up knocking shops next to the bookies?
But this nonsense that this is a fight over access to johns, being waged in Parliament… just that.
blitzgal: Also, this hand-wringing over guys buying gifts for their 16 year old girlfriends is utter bullshit. Young teens, male and female, many of whom have run away from abusive homes and are on the streets, are being forced into prostitution by criminals. And the johns barely get a slap on the wrist. Just look at the Marvell Scott case. He paid a pimp for a 14 year old girl on Times Square. The girl was so scared that another teen had to go up to his room with them to coax her into it. His punishment for this was 20 days community service.
I’m sure you made a typo. Antz assures us that the least lack of consent; on the part of an adult female, is a sure and certain ticket to 20 years in The Big House.
So it’s impossible (esp. in the Feminist Gynocracy of America, where boys are told [the horror] not to abuse women when they grow up, and parents are told [the infamy that their kids will follow the examples they set) that any one who assaulted any 14 year old who was the least unwilling got less than that. I am sure you meant to say they were sentenced to 20, consecutive, terms of twenty years.
/sarcasm
Explore Nature’s posts look like a fill in the blank to me. Is that the intention? Am I supposed to complete the thought? Because someone needs to.
Rachel, be careful. That way likes madness. It’s like Kabballah, one needs to be adult, stable, and well studied in the ur-text.
Otherwise… Well EN thought he could handle it, and you can see what engaging with these mysteries has done to him.
Okay. I’ll admit that my jury is still *way* out on the point of sex work. I don’t have any particular ethical issues with having sex for money (the concept of it, personally speaking it ain’t my style). But the implementation generally seems to have a suck factor to it that ensures there is a group of people (larger or smaller depending on the situation, but always non-zero) that is being exploited and treated like trash. It generally seems to me that a functional sex worker system would require a vastly different view of sex and the people who do it. I won’t be holding my breath for that.
But why am I not surprised that the attempt to put limitations on the situation is taken as a threat to male sexuality by MRAs? Seems that any kind of responsible action that men need to take in sex or limitations on what they can do is taking as a “threat to male sexuality.” What surprises me is these guys aren’t also complaining that they aren’t allowed to fulfill their fantasies of murdering the woman they just had sex with. You know…it’s a limitation on “natural, healthy male sexuality”!
I support decriminalization, not legalization, because as a long-time involved ally, that tends to be what most sex worker’s right’s activists ask their allies to work towards. “Legalization” tends to bring the force and attention of the state into sex worker’s private lives and livelihoods in ways that are not often positive for the women involved. I only mention this because the idea that “legalization” is obviously the more pro-sex-work stance is out there, but it’s a very murky area in terms of what sex worker’s rights activists really want.
MRA’s are the most misandrist bunch of all. When they say that having a minimum age for sex workers is against “natural male sexuality”, they are bashing the vast majority of men who do not want to exploit underage sex workers. Another thing is that if they cared about boys and men, they would be concerned for the underage boys who are sex workers, too.
While I am in favor of legalizing sex work, I definitely want it to be regulated. I see nothing wrong with setting a minimum age of 18 for it, and I don’t think 21 is too high either. If MRA’s only comeback to this is to call me jealous, then they must not have any reasonable arguments to counter it.
ozymandias42: it’s one of those interesting things about the feminist movement actually. I’ve seen a lot of effort put into criticizing and drawing attention to MRAs who are pretty much nobodies, and hardly any put into dealing with feminists with the ear of Government getting bad laws passed that harm sex workers even from those that claim to be strongly against this. In fact, a while ago some of the big and theoretically pro-sex worker US feminist blogs were helping The F-Word – which is basically the internet face of UK anti-sex worker feminism, complete with a policy of ignoring pro-sex worker rights feminists – raise funds for a website revamp to help them spread their message more effectively, with not a single mention of their problematic views.
(Also, sorry, I’m used to commenting on rather less sex-worker-friendly blogs.)
Xardoz: it is a really daft argument and you’d have to have some truly bizarre beliefs about how men in general think in order to think that way. The thing is that – from what I’ve seen – feminist women are quite capable of holding truly bizarre MRA-esque beliefs about how men in general think, particularly anti-sex work activists. Besides, if you’ve spoken to sex workers I’m guessing you’ve probably heard that paying for sex is often about rather more than simply exchanging money for sex? For example, that to many of their customers it seems to be more about getting some approximation of intimacy and reassurance?
Thanks, Pecunium…I’ll probably just leave it alone. I like my sanity!
@Kendra:
Ain’t it the truth. In real life, I think I’ve only ever met one man who strikes me as the type to be okay with exploiting sex workers.
(Trigger Warning!: Next sentence is violent)
He was the one who told me about the fantasy of snapping a sex worker’s neck as he climaxed.
(TW: over)
Every other man I’ve met? Pretty decent dude. None of them perfect, some of them outright jackasses, but definitely not interested in actively hurting others or contributing to the suffering of others.
What really makes me shake my head is the assumption they have that every man is just like them. Not acknowledging the variety of attitudes, personalities, and such among men is really out of touch with reality. Assuming that it is all a pretty bad attitude and predilections towards violence is downright creepy.
(wait, am I being oppressive in using the ‘c’ word?)
@Jill: Yeah, it’s a current phenomenon in Japan as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_k%C5%8Dsai
It doesn’t really matter anyways, usually overweight women don’t make much money. It’s a waste or time competing with hot nubile females, none of you have nothing to worry about.
@Naira: funny you should say that, because that’s one of the big reasons I don’t like feminist men. They all seem to hold really unpleasant beliefs about men, and rather too often it turns out that they’re using it to excuse their own dark secrets.
Also, you’ll probably find that not that many people complain about you calling men creepy when you have a specific, justified reason like that. It’s when it’s written off as coming from some kind of special women’s intuition, as though women have this mystical sixth sense which is entirely immune to prejudice, that it tends to attract controversy.
makomk: Care to explain to us what those unpleasant beliefs of “feminist men” are?
As to the issue of Creepy, and when some men complain about it… a whole lot got pissed about people referring to someone who ignored what someone had said about not liking it when men hit on her and then asked her to come to their hotel room at 3 in the morning; when they were alone in an elevator as creepy.
He was, “just a little shy and didn’t want to ask her in public,”, or, “He didn’t know she felt that way,”, and I forget what all was rationalised as the “real” reason. But calling him creepy was over the top.
Specific action. Personal reaction. Condemned.
So color me less than convinced by your assertion that it’s the, “sixth sense” implications that get people’s skivvies in a bunch.
makomk:
What “unpleasant beliefs about men” would these be?
Regarding “creepy”: a lot of judgments we make are without rational, describable reasons. I have a problem with “women’s intuition” in general. Men can make snap, subjective judgments that may or may not have a reason. Men can equally say “I don’t know why, but I just don’t like olives” (bleh). Or he can also say “I just don’t like that person.”
Having a reason like “they’re too bitter for me” or “my personality just clashes with that person’s” aren’t actually necessary for the feelings to be valid.
The idea of “women’s intuition” supports the idea that women make snap, subjective judgments, but men’s are always thought out and “rational” (which itself is a difficult concept to pin down).
makomk: Um, dude, intuition is an actual thing. If you get that “creep radar” off someone, REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENDER, it is good to (politely and discreetly) remove yourself from the situation.
Also I know a fuckload of feminist men and they mostly don’t seem to have dark secrets. Spear? Pecunium? Care to comment?
@Naira
Exactly, and intuition isn’t incompatible with rationality either, it’s actually essential for it. Making snap judgments is very important when OH SHIT IT’S A BEAR
More seriously, if your emotional functions are screwed up due to brain damage, it also fucks up your ability to make decisions or act rationally. For example, there’s a card test that psychology researchers use, I can’t remember the life of me what it is, but basically you have two packs of cards and in a certain mini-economics game the one pack will give you more benefits than the other one. Typically people will learn over time to choose cards from the beneficial pack despite the cards looking pseudo-random and them not knowing explicitly that the packs are weighted in any direction. Crucially though, if you don’t have the ability to intuit things (due to some neurological condition or whatever) you will choose randomly amongst the packs & won’t do as well in the game as typical individuals.
While intuition can sometimes send you in all sorts of wrong directions, it’s extremely important to being able to function. If you had to decide everything using abstracted rational processes you’d lock up and take an hour to decide anything. Sometimes you need to be able to act without thinking too hard. Like if you see the bushes rustling and maybe a big furry thing over there…
ozy: I have dark secrets. 🙂
On a more serious note, I probably do have a less than flattering view of men; but that’s got nothing to do with being a feminist; I have some less than flattering views of women.
That’s because I’ve got some unkind thoughts about humanity.