My eyes are all dialated from an eye exam, but even through a blurry haze I can tell this guy is kind of a toolbag. Here’s The Rational Male on why the ladies totally don’t appreciate all that dudes do for them, like for example, not having sex with other ladies when they totally probably could have.
I think what most men uniquely deceive themselves of is that they will ultimately be appreciated by women for their sacrifices. … You can’t be because women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate her reality. … Men making the personal sacrifices necessary to honor, respect and love her are commonplace. You’re supposed to do those things. You sacrificed your ambitions and potential to provide her with a better life? You were supposed to. You resisted temptation and didn’t cheat on your wife with the hot secretary who was DTF and ready to go?
Ladies totally don’t appreciate that shit. Seriously, gals, it takes a lot of willpower for us to keep from going around sticking our penises in other ladies. You should probably bake us all cakes, or something.
The worst offenders? Women 40 and over.
[A]ssume for a moment that a 40 y.o. Man with the options to pursue younger women “does the right thing” and seeks out a relationship with a woman his own age. Would he be appreciated for essentially giving an aged woman a new lease on life? Or would he be viewed as doing what is to be expected of him?
Seriously, women over 40 are practically senior citizens. Even talking to them is a gigantic sacrifice for a guy who imagines he might possibly be able to cajole a drunk 27 year old into bed for a night of deeply unsatisfying sex with him.
It’s best to remind the fortysomething hags what a giant favor you’re doing them while you are actually, you know, doing them. In the “having sex with them” sense, if you catch my drift.
“Aw yeah, baby, you saw that waitress totally smiling at me earlier. I think she’d probably do me. You’re lucky I even gave your old ass a second look!”
Repeat this until she hates herself. That sort of thing is what makes for spectacular sex.
It’s no wonder he calls himself The Rational Man.
@ Anthony Zarat
Yes, come on, as an AVfM bigshot/solider, you must feel acutely embarrassed about the cancellation of your *only* public outing…
What do you say?
You know, I totally agree that the common PUA fixation on girls young enough to be their children is creepy. Roissy in particular. However, I’m finding the combination of calling that icky and declaring oneself to have a significantly older partner a bit weird. I’m not sure how much older your partner is, pillowinhell, but normally when people say significantly older they mean at least 15 years older, which is kind of taking us into a similar area in terms of age gaps.
I dunno, I’m not trying to call you out, I’m just a bit weirded out by the combination of statements. I didn’t like it when significantly older men hit on me when I was younger (ie, the situation with the PUA dudes and the high school and college girls they’re fixated on), but honestly, I’m 38 now and I don’t like it any better when men with whom I have the same age gap as I did when I was in my late teens and early twenties and being hit on by much older men hit on me now, even though obviously I’m no longer an adolescent. Basically for me part of the discomfort was always “you could be my father”, and that discomfort still remains when men who are in my father’s current age range hit on me now.
Like I said, not trying to start a fight, but I was scratching my head a bit as I read that.
Holly: I’d accept the No True PUA, if they’d admit to a philosophy, but they don’t. It’s a trick. Look at Eurosabra… He says, “This is all ancient history, and completely discredited in PUA circles”. But he also says, “there is no school, it’s a bunch of individuals who do what they want.”
So which is it? Is the guy who raped someone and broadcast it a PUA? Not to the PUA, because that makes them look bad. But all the guys who praise the, “make her say no” dudes, they get to call themselves PUA, and the, “real ones” can say, “I don’t agree with them.”
Which may be true, but doesn’t make them not PUA, because the only thing PUA really means is, “I get women who weren’t into it to have sex with me.”
Look, again, at Eurosabra. He thinks women who are asked will say no, so he games them to get them to have sex without thinking about what they are doing. That’s shitty.
And it’s classic PUA. The only difference is degree, not kind.
Also, Gunwitch. Pretty hard to say he’s not a PUA – he’s too well known and established for that. Does Eurosabra have a No True PUA argument to explain him away too?
The attempt to explain away Sodini fell painfully flat, maybe he can do better this time. Not holding my breath, though.
I imagine him as Mr. Freeze. He’d be a scientist trying to invent an artificial womb so his dreams of a woman free society could finally come true. Of course this all male utopia would be east of the Mississippi River. That should go without saying. It would be absurd for them to be west of the Mississippi.
They’re probably similar to the self hating women that call themselves “shield maidens” at the Spearhead forums.
Part of the reason I keep poking at Eurosabra is that I think he knows that what he’s doing is despicable, he’s just rationalising it.
(It’s because LA is a shallow place, it’s because women have this weird thing where they force men to be super dominant and sexually pushy, it’s just women being trained to be ashamed, etc.)
My uncle was involved with a woman who was a year younger than his eldest, off-and-on for about 2 years. She was a divorced mother of two in her mid-20s with a business; I think he felt comfortable with it because she was clearly an established, independent adult. That said, his kids weren’t comfortable with the relationship, which is an important consideration I think.
On a somewhat-related note, I used to be so frustrated as a teenager when men in their 40s or 50s would hit on me, while simultaneously talking down to me. If someone is too young to have an adult conversation with, they are definitely too young to consent to sex with an adult.
@ Kenda
We already have a homeland for everything that the MRM hates out here on the West Coast. It’s called San Francisco. Clearly our forcefield of pure depraved straight-man-hatred is what’s forcing them over to the other side of the river.
(I’m not sure what they intend to do about New York City, though.)
“That said, his kids weren’t comfortable with the relationship, which is an important consideration I think.”
You have no idea how happy I was that after my mother’s death my Dad never did the mid life crisis, buy a sports car and date a girl my age thing. I was 21 at the time and he was in his mid 40s, and he’s the kind of guy who tends to be able to get away with that sort of thing if they want to. I’m really glad that he didn’t.
Cassandra, I have you beat living in Womens Canada, land of feminists strong and free.
We really need someone Swedish here, just to round out the Axis of Feminist Evil.
Actually the West Coast can have its own little Axis of Hipster Evil consisting of the Bay Area, West Hollywood, and Portland.
Cassandra: (It’s because LA is a shallow place, it’s because women have this weird thing where they force men to be super dominant and sexually pushy, it’s just women being trained to be ashamed, etc.)
I’m confused… is this your opinion about LA?, or is it an extrapolation of something else?
It’s Eurosabra’s excuse as to why he’s forced by tragic circumtances to be a PUA because he’s in LA. He’d banged that particular drum many times.
I quite like parts of LA. Not the prettiest city, but West Hollywood is a lot of fun, and it’s a great place to eat.
Ok. Good, I was thinking that was it, but I wasn’t sure LA’s big, and there are certainly scenes/subcultures where that’s the way of things, but I lived there for 30 years, and it’s got 14 million people. It’s so far from a monolith… well the problem lies with us, not with our stars.
The MRA’s haven’t talked much lately about Sweden being the capital of evil gynofascism. Australia is where it’s at now. Australia is the new Sweden.
Also, the MRA’s love celebrity gossip when it fits their world views. Why haven’t they declared Doug Hutchison to be their hero yet? He married a 16 year old girl when he was 51. He’s living the PUA/MRA dream.
Yeah, Eurosabra has posted extensively on my blog too about how he can’t act like a normal human being because the LA club scene has its own very special folkways an outsider could never possibly understand. He can’t ask women if they want to have sex with him in the LA club scene, and he can’t possibly interact with people outside the LA club scene because… um… because.
@Cassandra:
I know you addressed this comment to pillowinhell, but I hope it would be okay if I shared my own thoughts as someone in a relationship with an older partner 🙂
The way Roissy talks about younger women creeps me out, because it’s obvious that the appeal is largely based on how young they are. It’s not about them as people, it’s about them as numbers – which seems to be a bragging rights thing as much as anything else.
I wonder sometimes, too, if he likes younger women because they are easier targets. They haven’t dated as much, they aren’t as sure of themselves, he’s not the 12th person to try this bullshit on them, so maybe he can manipulate them in a way he wouldn’t be able to manipulate a woman in her 30s or beyond. Despicable.
It’s also the way he talks about women his own age. Anyone who is disgusted that women age past 30 is pretty much not a suitable partner for any woman. Obviously it shows that he’s a huge misogynist, but it also serves to underline the “I am only interested in you because you’re young, and couldn’t care less about what kind of person you are” message.
I wouldn’t say the age gap between me and my boyfriend is irrelevant, because it does present unique challenges. But it isn’t the focus of our relationship. It’s not why he chose to be with me — and it’s not why I chose to be with him either!
I’ve had a few times where I’ve been going hot at heavy with someone and then been turned on at the “Wanna get out of here” stage. Most likely scenario was that they were happy doing what we were doing but that was all they were comfortable doing, and that they decided to exit stage left post haste when they found out I wanted more to avoid any trouble in case that strange man decide to Hyde on em. Second most likely scenario was that it was only after they heard me ask that they actually thought about what they were doing, and with whom, and they decided to smooth back like nothing happened. There’s a chance that I just turned them off when I asked, I can’t claim to be all that smooth, but I highly doubt that it accounts for more than one or two women.
@ Pecunium
I was in LA for work last year and I had a lot more fun than I expected to. I understand now why Clive Barker loves the place – it’s sort of fascinatingly surreal and weird. I was mostly in Hollywood and the immediate environs, and going directly from Thaitown for lunch to the W hotel for an interview was quite a trip. Especially when a random young woman with a Russian accent accosted me in the bathroom, complimented my boots, and then tried to kiss me, at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon (she seemed pretty wasted). The whole trip was like that, just one odd event after another. I have a weird sense of humor so I found the whole thing very entertaining.
Yeah I can see where people might think my opinion on older men is weird considering that I have an older partner. So let’s qualify it a bit. I’m 38 and he’s a decade older. It was a little uncomfortable for me at first because his age was a concern. The difference I suppose is that we have the same maturity, and that maturity is appropriate for our age and responsibilities. When I was twenty, there’s no way I would have dated a thirty year old man or a fifteen year old because the maturity levels and experiences and needs would have been horribly out of whack either way.
I get the feeling from men who want to date significantly younger than themselves that they don’t give a shit about the overall development of the woman. Dealing with a twenty year old…easily manipulated. In part because they haven’t had time to discover what they really value, who they really are and develop the strength of their convictions so they can stand up for themselves. Somewhere along about thirty years, that should be fairly well developed, along with a strong set of self suffiency skills, so they aren’t so prone to looking to someone else to fix things.
My partner has two daughters and I have one, I wouldn’t consider dating men who weren’t single parents, because the priorities and outlooks are different from adults without children. My experience has been that men without children can accept the differences in relationship with my being a single parent on an intellectual level…but have difficulty living with it.
Dating even a twenty year old man is just not right in my mind. The needs of each age are different, although that tends to disappear the older you get. So you have pUAs who are in their forties, wanting twenty year olds because the young women are exploitable. Am I a hypocrite? Maybe this is something I need to think about. I certainly remember the scandalized looks I got from random people when my partner and I first started dating. But then, I look quite a bit younger than I am.
“Yeah, Eurosabra has posted extensively on my blog too about how he can’t act like a normal human being because the LA club scene has its own very special folkways an outsider could never possibly understand.”
Well, if he’s hanging out at the kind of places I suspect, it really is a bit weird. He could of course not hang out at those places, but like you said…that’s an option?
@ Viscaria
Yeah, with Roissy and friends it’s definitely a predatory thing in some ways. They wouldn’t treat women of any age with respect, but it’s easier to get away with that with younger women, and they know that. My point was more that in terms of men hitting on much younger women, there’s often a whole lot of entitlement going on there, and in that sense I find it just as vexing now when I’m 38 and they’re 50+ as I did when I was 18 and they were 30 or 40. Part of the Roissy worldview is that a man always deserves a hot young woman, regardless of his age (or appearance), and I think it’s the same thinking that drives men on (unnamed dating site) to occasionally send me messages pretty much demanding a date even though I have my upper age limit set at about 45, and they’re 60.
@ pillowinhell
Ah, that makes more sense – when you said significantly older I was thinking more like 20 years older. My own theoretical dating range is pretty narrow in terms of age precisely because shared life experience is really important to me (I’m wary of dating anyone who makes a lot more money than me for similar reasons – I don’t want a relationship with built in power imbalances). For some odd reason I get a lot of much younger women hitting on me (like at least 10 years younger, and in one memorably weird case a 19 year old), and I’m really not comfortable with the idea of dating someone that much younger at all. The idea of dating a much younger man bothers me even more, which I’m still trying to unwrap in terms of the reasons why – some of them I think are valid, some I think are cultural programming.
Yeah, that entitlement is pretty unpleasant. I’ve had older guys hit on me and say something like “age is just a number, baby!” and then call me a bitch for disagreeing. Which is especially hilarious if they’re obviously only talking to people at least a decade younger than them. If age is just a number, why are women your own age off of the table?
His age is just a number. Yours is a detail of vital importance, along with all your other measurements, which he is of course expecting you to provide.
RE LA and weirdness, a friend who lives down there says that she sometimes sees personal ads where the dude will specify the exact size of implants that his prospective girlfriend must have, in CCs. And MRAL thinks I’m too picky…