My eyes are all dialated from an eye exam, but even through a blurry haze I can tell this guy is kind of a toolbag. Here’s The Rational Male on why the ladies totally don’t appreciate all that dudes do for them, like for example, not having sex with other ladies when they totally probably could have.
I think what most men uniquely deceive themselves of is that they will ultimately be appreciated by women for their sacrifices. … You can’t be because women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate her reality. … Men making the personal sacrifices necessary to honor, respect and love her are commonplace. You’re supposed to do those things. You sacrificed your ambitions and potential to provide her with a better life? You were supposed to. You resisted temptation and didn’t cheat on your wife with the hot secretary who was DTF and ready to go?
Ladies totally don’t appreciate that shit. Seriously, gals, it takes a lot of willpower for us to keep from going around sticking our penises in other ladies. You should probably bake us all cakes, or something.
The worst offenders? Women 40 and over.
[A]ssume for a moment that a 40 y.o. Man with the options to pursue younger women “does the right thing” and seeks out a relationship with a woman his own age. Would he be appreciated for essentially giving an aged woman a new lease on life? Or would he be viewed as doing what is to be expected of him?
Seriously, women over 40 are practically senior citizens. Even talking to them is a gigantic sacrifice for a guy who imagines he might possibly be able to cajole a drunk 27 year old into bed for a night of deeply unsatisfying sex with him.
It’s best to remind the fortysomething hags what a giant favor you’re doing them while you are actually, you know, doing them. In the “having sex with them” sense, if you catch my drift.
“Aw yeah, baby, you saw that waitress totally smiling at me earlier. I think she’d probably do me. You’re lucky I even gave your old ass a second look!”
Repeat this until she hates herself. That sort of thing is what makes for spectacular sex.
It’s no wonder he calls himself The Rational Man.
Reading comprehensions. U NO HAZ IT.
Math SKILZZ. U NO HAZ IT.
0.5% + 0.4% + 0.7% = 1.6% of all rapes surveyed
Even is men did account for 10% of all rape attempts victims, why are you screaming at women about it?
Zarat, why should anyone engage you on a serious level when you’ve stated, outright, that you don’t believe in engaging honestly in discussions with feminists? Why should your presentation of evidence, or anything you say, be taken in good faith or met with anything other than derision when you’ve admitted that you are a liar?
Also, the data was commented on, twice.
AntZ, my personal attack is that you do not give a shit about men.
You don’t want to help male survivors of rape. Nothing about your actions or your words suggests you care if they live or die. You just want to prove the Evil Of Women, and to you, rape of men is just another tool, no more or less significant than paying for dates, no more or less emotionally wrenching than holding open doors. It’s just another item on your “Evil Of Women” list, to be ticked off and then forgotten.
Or if I’m wrong, what are you doing to help male victims? What charities are you donating to, what hotlines are you staffing, what letters are you writing, what public awareness are you raising? (Trolling a small handful of people who know way more about rape than you do is a very ineffective way to raise awareness.) If you care so much, how are you helping?
(P.S. People did argue with the data. Read up…)
Zarat: This is my full position on the rape of men.
–I want rape crisis centers to provide counselling and other services to survivors, regardless of gender, and to have the funding to do so.
–I want an end to victim-blaming, rape-apologist culture that encourages people not to report, including the various gendered manifestations thereof (such as “men can’t get raped” or “you’re in a short skirt, you were asking for it”).
–I want the police and justice system to take rape seriously and punish it firmly, regardless of gender.
–I want everyone to acknowledge the diverse ways that rape can occur, including that envelopment is rape; I want studies that don’t give raped men some separate-but-equal forced-to-penetrate bullshit.
–I want bystanders to recognize their role in preventing rape and know how to intervene.
–I want non-gendered rape prevention education to teach everyone about good consent, both receiving it and getting it.
–I want every rape to be recognized as a rape, regardless of gender.
I don’t think it is. If this were really, genuinely, important to you than you’d be doing something about the issue of the rape of men by women. Throwing an off topic, hissy-fit aimed at people who agree with you that men can, and are, raped by women doesn’t count as doing anything.
You’re just yelling at the choir.
So other than engaging in some keyboard activism by trying to create an argument with people who agree with you, in part, but not in entirety, what are you and the MRM doing about dealing with this issue?
And make me another one who asks what you do. Here, I’ll help.
As an evil feminazi who hates men, I have donated occasionally to RAINN to maintain their online hotline that provides services to men and women. I have revised my school’s sexual assault policy to be inclusive of all genders. I have written thousands and thousands of words raising awareness of the fact that envelopment is rape. I have mentioned the rape of men in every damn conversation I have about rape, so much so that my dad sends me NYT articles about the rape of men.
What have you done, besides trolling?
Sounds like Ozy’s a way better MRA than you, AntZ.
Here’s a list of things that you, Anthony Zarat, and the MRM have not done about the issue of men being raped by women: (note, that Holly has already touched on several of these)
1) Started a campaign to promote awareness on the issue
2) Started a nonprofit organization, whose mission is educational, in order to increase awareness of this issue
3) Partnered with existing rape crisis centers in order to promote awareness of this issue and offer real world help to men who have been raped by women
4) Started a rape crisis center that works exclusively with men who have been the victims of rape and/or sexual assault, regardless of the gender of their rapist
5) Worked on creating a comprehensive list of current legal definitions of rape, state by state, in order to ascertain which recognize the rape of men by women and which do not and, then initiated a logical step by step series of petitions to state legislatures and local law enforcement officials about changing the laws
6) Organized and initiated protests and/or demonstrations to raise awareness of this issue
Have you begun work on any of these things?
@ Zarat
You’re an MRA solider, aren’t you Anthony? That’s how you see yourself, isn’t it Anthony? That’s what your leader called you, isn’t it Anthony? You were flattered, weren’t you Anthony? You want to be a tough MRA, “FTSU”, don’t you Anthony?
You *wanted* to be the brave MRA who made the pretty young woman nervous in the chemist, don’t you Anthony? But it was a lie, wasn’t it Anthony? Because you’re scared of women, aren’t you Anthony? You’re scared of anything except writing on blogs, aren’t you Anthony? You wished you *had* scared the pretty young woman in the chemists, but you didn’t, even though she is the enemy to you. You know deep down that you’re not an MRA soldier, don’t you Anthony?
You’re a fraud, Anthony. You’re see-through, transparent. A nobody. And you know it. And that’s why the MRA welcomes you and that’s why you love them.
@ozymandias42
And yet you continue to support a web site whose founder wrote that:
“What the [MRM] movement has turned into is a strange parody of “victim feminism,” an endless search for proof that men (despite earning more than women, heading up the overwhelming majority of companies and governments in the world, getting all the best movie roles, never having to wear heels, and so on and so on and so on) are in fact second-class citizens.”
Feminist “activism” is 90% about cementing the role of men as perpetrators and women as victims. As long as feminists continue to do this, feminists will continue to be the target of the MRM.
MEN WILL NEVER HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO SERVICES, SUPPORT, AND RESEARCH while feminism remains unchallenged.
That is why job #1 for the MRM is to challenge, denounce, and expose feminist bigotry.
An example is VAWA. Hiding the facts is rather important when $770 million per year in funding is on the line — that is why feminists work so hard to hide male victimization by women.
Yeah, we know that. We also know that actually directly helping men in need, in any way, is somewhere around job #183, significantly behind “remember to bring chips to meeting.”
…And you guys don’t even have meetings.
@ Anthony Zarat
Listen to Pink Floyd’s excellent song Brain Damage;
“You shout and no-one seems to hear”.
Your message is drowned out by the insanity, stupidity, anger and delusion of your beloved movement.
You serve no-one, except yourselves.
It is a collection of disturbed individuals with unrealistic views on themselves.
And you, Anthony, are a liar.
You lied about the pretty young woman in the chemists – MRAs laugh at you, behind your back.
@ Anthony Zarat
You said that the MRM had won.
Your one public outing was cancelled due to no-one being able to take part.
Is the victory called off?
I won’t let this go. Be a soldier, stand your ground, Anthony.
Right now you looks extremely stupid.
Defend yourself.
I’m moving to Ozy’s version of reality!
Seriously…is there any way for MRAs to believe that men and women both CAN actually care about all forms of rape? I say I care about rape, as a whole subject and as it impacts the lives of men, women, direct/indirect victims. But that apparently isn’t good enough.
If someone tells me they care about rape, why shouldn’t I believe them? Caring is a feeling. And unless they’ve given me reasons to be suspicious of what they say, questioning their feelings and motivations is stupid. There’s no way to prove or disprove a feeling. Saying it once or every once in a while comes off as a claim to a particular feeling. No more, no less.
However, if one doth protest too much, I would *expect* to see some action behind those words. Making a loud, repetitive point about caring about male rape (and either implying or directly saying that no one else does) is a bit different. If you’re going to make an over the top display of saying so, then I expect that you’re either an active advocate or you’re just grandstanding.
“MEN WILL NEVER HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO SERVICES, SUPPORT, AND RESEARCH while feminism remains unchallenged.
That is why job #1 for the MRM is to challenge, denounce, and expose feminist bigotry.”
What a marvelous excuse for doing nothing except ranting on the internet. Your rationalisation hamster must have been working terribly hard – you should give him a rest, and some treats.
Paul Elam has said that rapists should be acquited and that he cared more about cake decorating than the rape of females. Elam is in a relationship with a woman and has daughters.
Anthony Zarat is a strong supporter of this man.
It seems they care about the rape of men as much as they care about the rape of women.
But they’ve won, anyway, so they don’t need to do anything pro-active.
I think this is “winning” in the Charlie Sheen sense, ie by being psychologically unwell and possibly high.
7) Worked with institutions and employers to revise their sexual harassment and assault policies to specifically include harassment and assault of men
8) Founded, or donated to, a shelter for homeless boys to protect them from sexual exploitation on the street
9) Participated in organizations like Just Detention that campaign against prison rape
10) Extended your personal support and care to men you know who have been victims of rape
11) Pressured schools to add “men can be raped, and it’s wrong” to their sex-ed curricula
12) Pitched and written articles on the rape of men for academic or popular presses
13) Created safe and private spaces for male survivors within your online communities (don’t even have to spend a dime or get off the computer for this one)
14) Volunteered as an ER advocate for male rape survivors
15) Established, or volunteered for, a hotline for male rape and abuse victims
Any of these? Have you even thought of them? Would you even consider them? Do you even care about them?
You mean, that men won’t have these things without actually organizing, rolling up your sleeves and taking the actions necessary to have them right? Because it’s entirely possible to both challenge feminism and engage in real activism. In fact, since challenging feminism consists, mostly, of trolling on the internet this shouldn’t be that hard.
How lucky for you that the number one job is so fucking easy and requires absolutely no real work. Meanwhile, I should really be getting off the computer since I need to go prep for a meeting with an organization that actually works to help at-risk, young men with mentoring, addiction counseling, job services and training, and counseling.
I have a feeling that the MRA response to lists like that is “but we can’t while feminism exists!” and all I can say to that is good lord you’re lying cowards.
People have started institutions to help sex workers in areas where sex work is punished by imprisonment, and you think you can’t do anything while any opposition exists? Pfft.
At least admit you don’t give a shit about men with real problems.
@ Anthony Zarat
Analyze the debate you took part in and then do the following;
Summarize who won/lost using an MRA perspective;
Summarize who won/lost using a normal person’s perspective.
You might be surprised…
It makes for quite the “out,” doesn’t it?
“You’re a fraud, Anthony.”
“Here’s a list of things that you, Anthony Zarat, and the MRM have not done …”
“Sounds like Ozy’s a way better MRA than you, AntZ.”
“… you’d be doing something about the issue …”
“So, Antz, what are you doing about the rape of men?”
You are the enemy. I know that anything I tell you will be twisted, denigrated, or simply disbelieved. But, I will answer. I will NOT give you any more details. If you genuinely care about compassion, you will know why.
Here is the only independent (non-MRA based) action that I have taken to help men:
I started an on-line self-help and mutual support group, for men and other interested persons. It is small but rapidly growing. I cannot say how many people participate, because some members are the same person with multiple names.
The main goal is a “safe space” where men (and women interested in men) can learn, teach, discuss, and possibly work through their pain. The safe space rules are simple:
1) Gendered attacks on men/masculinity result in expulsion without warning.
2) Gendered attacks on women/femininity result in warnings and possible expulsion.
Some people were concerned because the rules are asymmetrical, but I believe this is necessary. The group is designed for healing. Occasionally, injured men will lash out. We cannot accomplish our mission without understanding this.
Within 24 hours of start-up we faced a strong attempt to shut down the group, because the name was provocative. I need the provocative name to attract members. I can’t advertise, or I will attract people like you.
The attempt to shut us down failed. Since then, we have been left alone. Once in a while someone starts a fake account, listens for a while to see if there is anything worth reporting, and then gets bored and leaves us alone.
More than 90% of the time we are talking about nothing at all related to gender. Last night the conversation was about Chicago, the Field museum, and restaurants on Clark street. A member who claims to be a female recently moved to Chicago, and asked for advice. She claims to study marine biology at North-western U, which led to the talk about the museum, movies, and Val Kilmer.
The most common advice that I give to my members is “women are not the problem”.
These are facts. I cannot prove them, and I will not try. I will not tolerate the kind of interference and sabotage that would result if I open the front door to you or anyone whose mission is, at its heart, contrary to the mission of this group.
So far, I have only spent $90 on this project.
I… Don’t… Know… What… To… Say…
Zarat’s most recent response is so insanely stupid that I’m not sure if he’s insane or trolling himself…