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Ladies totally don’t appreciate guys who go out with them when they’re, you know, all old and stuff

Ava Gardner, fortysomething hag, and some beta dude doing her a giant favor by even being seen with her in public.

My eyes are all dialated from an eye exam, but even through a blurry haze I can tell this guy is kind of a toolbag. Here’s The Rational Male on why the ladies totally don’t appreciate all that dudes do for them, like for example, not having sex with other ladies when they totally probably could have.

I think what most men uniquely deceive themselves of is that they will ultimately be appreciated by women for their sacrifices. … You can’t be because women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate her reality. … Men making the personal sacrifices necessary to honor, respect and love her are commonplace. You’re supposed to do those things. You sacrificed your ambitions and potential to provide her with a better life? You were supposed to. You resisted temptation and didn’t cheat on your wife with the hot secretary who was DTF and ready to go?

Ladies totally don’t appreciate that shit. Seriously, gals, it takes a lot of willpower for us to keep from going around sticking our penises in other ladies. You should probably bake us all cakes, or something.

The worst offenders? Women 40 and over.

[A]ssume for a moment that a 40 y.o. Man with the options to pursue younger women “does the right thing” and seeks out a relationship with a woman his own age. Would he be appreciated for essentially giving an aged woman a new lease on life? Or would he be viewed as doing what is to be expected of him?

Seriously, women over 40 are practically senior citizens. Even talking to them is a gigantic sacrifice for a guy who imagines he might possibly be able to cajole a drunk 27 year old into bed for a night of deeply unsatisfying sex with him.

It’s best to remind the fortysomething hags what a giant favor you’re doing them while you are actually, you know, doing them. In the “having sex with them” sense, if you catch my drift.

“Aw yeah, baby, you saw that waitress totally smiling at me earlier. I think she’d probably do me. You’re lucky I even gave your old ass a second look!”

Repeat this until she hates herself. That sort of thing is what makes for spectacular sex.

It’s no wonder he calls himself The Rational Man.

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captainbathrobe
8 years ago

Sly and the Family Cunt?

Pecunium
8 years ago

Women Suck!

Dirty Bitch Had It Coming.

“Done Told Her Twice, Nothing More to Say”

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Ha ha ha! Pecunium! That one was good!

Anachronistic society against dried up cunts?

JohnnyBB
JohnnyBB
8 years ago

One thing I’ve noticed is that Explore Nature’s posts seem like couplets. I’d like to aggregate his posts and see if they can be arranged into sonnets.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Is there a book of Antzie Dearest to refer to? Might help me guess better

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

I think Ozy mentioned Hugh Ristik. I’ve read some of his work.

I dunno, I think that PUA in terms of helping men develop self confidence, different methods of approaching women, asking for dates, reading body language etc is a good thing. Social skills aren’t something hardwired, and sometimes people don’t learn what seems obvious to others.

My problem with a lot of PUA is that some of the premises that underpin it are toxic to everyone. Much of what they teach doesn’t come from a “let’s show you how to put your best foot forward” but rather a “you’re inherently an unlovable person”. These guys are already frustrated and down on themselves and the PUA philosophy just makes it worse! What’s more, I think the women attracted to the manipulation techniques are just as sexist and bitter as the men, creating a positive feedback loop. Which conveniently gets blamed on feminists?

burgundy
burgundy
8 years ago

@pillowinhell, that’s why Charlie Nox does what she does. She teaches the self-confidence/body language/social skills stuff, but without any of the “you’re an inherently unlovable person” crap. And it’s not about manipulation – for example, she’s got a whole series of posts on how to construct your OkCupid profile, and it’s all about realizing how you come across, and how to honestly communicate the things that make you attractive (like this one: http://www.charlienox.com/2011/11/07/okcupid-profile-section-you-should-message-me-if/#more-248).

When I first heard “feminist pick-up artist” I was pretty skeptical, but I appreciate what she’s doing.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

VR can heal you of the human that ails you

Dream cunts, a quarter of the pleasure and none of the pain

I think EN has very poor English literacy, but that he’s so hopped up on his Anti-feminist, poorly thought out back-to-a-nature-that-doesn’t-exist crusade that he needs to force out his rants in what little English he knows

Lola
8 years ago

Here in Brazil the masculinist dudes believe women over THIRTY are already senior citizens, and that honored men shouldn’t be caught dead even speaking to them.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Did Elam announce that the rally was called out off in a recent post?Can someone point me to it. I’d rather not wade through his awful site to find out.

It’s kind of adorable how Antz thinks the MRM is going to bring down the feminist movement when they can’t even coordinate a handful of dudes to show up at the same date for a picnic.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

@Crumbelievable, yes Elam has cancelled Sink Misandry. Elam won’t go into any details about why. He just said

Also, we had a most unfortunate and sudden pull-out of needed logistical support for the Sink Misandry event in Washington, D.C., purportedly due to philosophical differences. The manner in which it happened left me unable to compensate for it immediately, and so that too, for time being, is off the schedule.

It’s a shame, because I thought it would have been funny to watch videos of their protest. I imagined a tiny group of men yelling about evil feminists while everyone around them wonders what in the world they’re on about.

badbobby
badbobby
8 years ago

Hello Anthony,

I think you’ll find that there’s probably near unanimous consent here, and amongst feminists in general, of the following:

a) men can be raped
b) men can be raped by women
c) men being raped is bad
d) male victims face uncalled for social stigmatization and shame
e) male vicitims need more support options
f) the FBI definition of rape is not perfect

Feminists agree with all your basic talking points.

Yet you come here, and go elsewhere, spewing nonsense about how feminists/women are the enemy and how you dream of replacing them with robots. Not cool.

Feminism creates dialog and raises awareness about rape and gender issues. Indirectly, at the least, this should create an environment that helps with isses 4&5 above.

Your MRA friends, though. They like to throw around terms like ‘mangina’ for those they perceive as different or weak or not real men. They come here and say that real men shouldn’t get therapy for their mental health issues. They start protests against women’s shelters instead of fundraising to start men’s shelters.

Yet you still say that feminists are the enemy. Really?

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Hugh Ristik also points out that for the longest time he didn’t have to initiate kissing, because women reacted to his looks and would kiss him spontaneously. So not someone whose success stems entirely from his words, Game, and humor. He is pretty forthright about having advantages that 99% of men don’t, physically and economically, and to being in a prestigious area of academe. So there’s that. Of course he’s pretty happy with women.

Scar
Scar
8 years ago

A scenario for the PUAs:

Brad Renolds is really called Horrace Wilburflib and he’s a big loser in life. However, he’s been practising his PUA skills and he’s gotten pretty good at duping women into thinking that he’s someone he’s not. His entire routine (like most PUAs) is basically predicated on portraying himself as something that he is not – because if the Horrace was capable of getting sex, he wouldn’t have to pretend to be Brad.

Enter Cristel. She’s a 6 foot bombshell with legs up to her armpits, gravity defying DD boobs, superbly styled blond tresses and dressed to kill.
Brad has never seen anyone like her before; she’s definitely a cut above his usual pickings, but he decides to take up the challenge.
Working his PUA magic, he manages to win over Cristel and they end up back at her place and have wild, passionate monkey sex.
After they are done, Cristel confesses that she lived the better part of her life as a male and transitioned a few years back.

Poor Brad is shocked, disgusted and angry. He screams at her, throws a chair at her, then storms out. He gets in touch with a lawyer and tries to sue Cristel for deceiving him into having sex when he wouldn’t have had sex with ‘her’ if he had known ‘she was really a “he”‘.
When he describes the scenario to his buddies online, he likes to use the word ‘rape’ to describe what happened to him.

captainbathrobe
8 years ago

@Cassandra

If someone I had been about to have sex with, who had given every indication of wanting sex, said “Yeah, I was interested, until you asked and killed the mood”, then I’d consider that a bullet of pure unadulterated crazy dodged, and get the hell away from them as soon as possible.

QFT. At the very least, such a person would seem to have difficulty owning zir sexuality. It’s like saying, “I’m willing to have sex with you as long as I don’t have to acknowledge what we’re doing or take responsibility for my own actions.” I don’t think false rape accusations are all that common, but this sort of person would seem more likely to make them than most. So, yeah, run the other way–quickly.

kilo
kilo
8 years ago

@Pecunium,

So to say, 1: There is no movement. 2: There are no orthodoxies. 3: These guys who say they are PUA aren’t REAL PUA, because that’s not what PUA is all about, is logically inconsistent.

I read Eurosabra a bit more (perhaps too) favourably as saying 1. There is no movement, but a loose community. 2. There is no overarching othodoxy, but different schools/perspectives, which may have different, sometimes compatible and sometimes contradictory philosophies. 3. Most schools have rejected certain lines of thought; those that did not are on the fringe and thus not “real” examples of the community.

@Holly Pervocracy

Pecunium – I’d accept the “no true PUA” argument if someone could point me to any PUA guru who didn’t base his arguments in sexism. I don’t need to know that they’re “mainstream,” but it would help if they existed.

The best I’ve seen is still a kind of paternalistic quasi-benevolent sexism, where you’re supposed to “leave her better than you found her!”, which is nicer than “make the ho say no,” I guess, but really just means that women are valued objects to be treated nicely–we’re still objects.

It’s kind of difficult, living in a still sexist society, to be completely free from sexism. If that is your measure it’ll be hard to find anyone. Still, I’ll try and name some that I kind of like, and give a few posts that illustrate part of what they’re about.

tl;dr: Read the Roissy/Roosh parody on postmasculine, it’s actually on topic (mocking misogyny) and, I think, pretty hilarious: http://postmasculine.com/the-10-step-guide-to-getting-hb10s-every-time

– Softball answer: Charlie Nox. Before putting her things under a new name she even gave her approach the label “Feminist PUA”, and it’s still notable in her work. burgundy already mentioned her.
– Wayne Elise / Charisma Arts. They have moved somewhat away from exclusively focusing on interactions between men and women toward interaction between people generally, but a lot of their stuff deals with it. Their approach is based on conversational strategies for quickly establishing genuine connections, stating what you want directly and creating desire. Here’s an article outlining the difference between his kind of game and the one you’re probably more familiar with: http://charismaarts.com/how-not-to-be-a-cold-approach-weirdo and here’s an example of the conversation philosophy behind the method: http://charismaarts.com/listening
– Worthy Playboy / Seductive reasoning. Strong focus on inner game and becoming your best self. Argues strongly against slut shaming, against the transactional model of sexuality (infact sees the dynamic behind these two as the root of all problems), and against misogyny in the community. Again a focus on personal connection between people and stating what you want clearly. http://johnnysoporno.com/workshops/philosophy/just-be-yourself-she-says/ is about inner game, http://johnnysoporno.com/workshops/philosophy/reframing-rejection-overcoming-misogyny/ about misogyny, and http://johnnysoporno.com/workshops/philosophy/converting-girl-friends-into-girlfriends/ about stating what you want; he also has a free video lecture available.
– Zan Perrion / Enlightened Seduction / Natural Game Forums. Focus on honesty, personal connection/sympathy, and eliminating outcome dependence. His whole “All women are beautiful and wonderful people in their own unique way” thing could probably be read as a bit much on the benevolent sexism side, but I’m not sure I want that reading. http://www.zanperrion.com/the-essence-of-enlightened-seduction.php describes the philosophy and http://www.zanperrion.com/the-real-secret-of-attraction.php has some more stuff. Their material is somewhat non-concrete.
– Mark Manson / PostMasculine. Has recently gone from focussing on pickup toward a more whole lifestyle thing. He seems level-headed and open-minded, and he is brutally honest about himself and where he was wrong. http://postmasculine.com/a-new-masculinity deals with some of that, http://postmasculine.com/the-madonnawhore-complex discusses the madonna/whore complex and why it’s unfair and bad, and http://postmasculine.com/the-10-step-guide-to-getting-hb10s-every-time is a hilarious parody of Roissy/Roosh style game.

@pillowinhell, are you the one commenting on FC? I enjoyed some of your posts there, thanks!

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

I’m concerned enough about male rape victims and male victims of domestic violence that I’m posting hotline numbers for men and writing about the truly horrify newspaper story about a man in TO who was confined and tortured by his wife and her boyfriend. I will specifically be focusing on the problems I saw in the way the story reported and the fact that it concentrates on the boyfriends criminal acts without also detailing what the wife did. As my very first post.

Is there anyone here who knows what the national hotline for male victims of domestic violence in Canada is? I’ve read that money is being allocated by the Canadian government to create the hotline so male victims can more easily access the help they need. They are also allocating more money for men shelters and counselling.

This shout out is for Holly Pervocracy…you have a post on why people stay with their abusers…may I link to it in my blog?

Looking for websites and hotline numbers based in Canada to help victims of abuse or crimes, regardless of gender or sexuality etc. I believe I can find several for women, but haven’t found much for men.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago
Reply to  kilo

Kilo, yes I post on FC at times. I regularly check in to see what new topic comes up, they give me a lot to think about. My last post I screwed up majorly though.. Hopefully either Daran or Ballgame pulled it because half the thread got pulled in to my post. Dang Black Berries, I could fix it before the edit function timed out.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago
Reply to  kilo

Kilo, yes I post on FC at times. I regularly check in to see what new topic comes up, they give me a lot to think about. My last post I screwed up majorly though.. Hopefully either Daran or Ballgame pulled it because half the thread got pulled in to my post. Dang Black Berries, I couldn’t fix it before the edit function timed out.

darksidecat
8 years ago

Oops, wrong thread

oldfeminist
8 years ago

I checked out the statistics on the NISVS report.

Women report a much higher lifetime rape incidence than men. Women and men show a similar “past 12 months” rape rate if you count envelopment.

Why? Because young women and children are targeted by rapists. They have less experience and are more easily intimidated into not reporting the rape or being convinced it wasn’t rape. They are typically in positions of even less power than more mature women.

This is the same reason shitheads like Roissy think they’re great dates. Because they’re easier to rape without consequences.

exploreunnature
8 years ago

Pillowinhell=You can use the Hotline robot. Must have a cooling system. This is the meat of the information society technologies (IST).

SaruGoku
SaruGoku
8 years ago

AntZ:

You still haven’t answered my question. I genuinely want to know why you think that the woman who raped you as a thirteen year old should have gotten away with a 1-3 year sentence. I’m really confused by this because you talk about this event as something that truly traumatized you and still does and yet you think the perpetrator should have been given such a light sentence.

Gillian
Gillian
8 years ago

because this case in Israel where a guy raped someone and said it was Game got lots of protests

De-lurking to elucidate: the protests were organized by women who identified as feminists, most significantly women who run the Israeli Hollaback blog (whose name in Hebrew is a really clever pun which is wasted on anyone who can’t speak Hebrew, so oh well…). And of course, there was the usual backlash from Israeli PUAs and clueless men, with all the usual “you hate men,” “you hate sex,” “women are all spoiled princesses,”etc. you are all so familiar with – only in Hebrew.

So Eurosabra misrepresented the case, to nobody’s surprise.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Yeah, that’s what I thought. No one has heard of PUA, and no one cares, and Push Until She Says NO, is completely not done, but that dude that did it, he was totally lying about being a PUA and…

Yep

Gillian
Gillian
8 years ago

Yeah, that’s what I thought. No one has heard of PUA, and no one cares, and Push Until She Says NO, is completely not done, but that dude that did it, he was totally lying about being a PUA and…

Actually, it was a lot more obvious in this particular case. The supposed rapist (and I’m calling him “supposed” because the Israeli PUA forums are full of lying liars who lie and tell impossible stories about how they fucked 6-foot Swedish models after meeting them in the supermarket, so who knows if this is true) wrote in a PUA forum, was a familiar PUA activist, and lots of other PUAs chimed in to applaud. Israel is a tiny little country, and the PUA community is a tiny little community in said tiny little country. If you do any research, you can easily find out who’s a PUA and who isn’t.

So there weren’t even any attempts at “No True PUA” diversions. It was all straight-up “she wanted it,” “if she didn’t want it she should have said something/kicked him in the nuts,” “you feminists are all ugly and hairy,” and the ever-popular “but this is how men get laaaaaid, and if they didn’t do this sort of thing they’d never get laaaaaaid.”

Pecunium
8 years ago

Gillian: The, “No True PUA” was Eurosabra speaking here, and telling us that the sort of thing you are talking about isn’t done by, “real PUAs”.

Emma the Emo
8 years ago

Heh, I remember commenting on that one.
For a man with too many options, monogamy with a woman his age is indeed a sacrifice (unless he prefers women his age anyway). Of course, if he promised to remain faithful, then he is supposed to. Otherwise, he is not supposed to anything just by default. Monogamy for a man with much less options is not a great sacrifice (might actually be a great deal instead), which is why Rational Male sounds so entitled to you there. He’s technically right, but it only works for guys with a lot of options.
The thing about sacrifice though is that it has to be mutual (give and take), then the likelihood of running into the problem of unappreciation would be reduced.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

Hey, here’s a thought: Monogamy is a sacrifice to those who aren’t inclined to be monogamous, and it isn’t for those who are. It has fuck all to do with “options”, and fuck all to do with gender.

ozymandias42
8 years ago

Right. For instance, monogamy was a sacrifice to my girlfriend, until she got her act together and stopped cheating on people and became properly poly. Monogamy is not a sacrifice to my friend with benefits, who is monogamous even in casual-sex situations with people who are fucking other people.

GUYS PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

Love the photo and caption! It’s inspired me to write an open letter to these idiots.

Dear MRA/PUA shitbags,

If dating older women was good enough for Sinatra, it’s damn sure good enough for you.

Sincerely,
The WHTM Commentariat

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