Reactionary and “traditionalist” Men’s Rightsers tend to share a lot of the anti-Islam prejudices of the American right in general. When they talk about Islam it’s usually in vaguely apocalyptic terms, and usually with a side of anti-feminist conspiratorialism thrown in for good measure: Feminists are destroying Western Civilization and making the Muslim takeover inevitable!
But I’ve run across a few highly upvoted comments on the Spearhead recently which suggest that the generally less than warm feelings about Islam found in the Manospehre may be tinged with a certain amount of envy and even admiration.
Take this Rapses fellow here:
It is high time papa (patriarchy) take some harsh measures to discipline her little naughty girls (feminists). Papa has yielded too much to their tantrum and whining. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Western papa has to toughen up a bit and tell them that their stupid whims would not be met. These little girls are really not that tough as they show and still need papa to provide and protect them. See how Saudi papa deals with his girls and still his girls are not complaining.
51 upvotes, 10 downvotes, last I checked.
And then there’s Aharon :
I think there are many American women that American men would prefer to burqad up for their obese figures and even more obese whining mouths. Perhaps we can customize the burqad in America to include a dog muzzle. …
Feminism along with its allies has been very effective the past 45+ years in decimating the nuclear family along with traditional American values and ethics, and loyalty to church and synagogue. Most religious institutions are failing men in America. … Men leave liberal places of worship because they can’t relate to the female-value emphasis. …
American men have been living – for generations – in a post Judeo-Christian modern American misandrist society that for the most part sold men out. Islam comes along and teaches Sharia Law will not discriminate against men, and that men are respected in Islam, etc. Bingo. … I can see American men in the future becoming increasingly interested in Islam.
He adds this bit of speculation at the end:
I can also see new pro Men’s religions being created and taking hold. I see them mostly as manly without the provider/protector/chivalry crap, and not mangina metro-sexual in their beliefs and values.
30 upvotes, 1 downvote.
Apparently any religion is okey dokey with this crowd – even one made up on the spot – so long as it’s butch enough.
ithaliana: they’re completely acceptable and accepted. Thank you.
@Raoul
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Yes, sweetie, go back to your basement and Force Bolt those nasty Jedi in the faces and let the adults talk.
@Explore Nature, does your copy of Freakonomics also show how the decline in pirates has cause global warming?
@Luc
Yes, because when we repealed the 18th Amendment we saw such an increase in bootlegging moonshine.
While heavily pregnant with our first, my wife brought an empathy belly home from work once (she was teaching antenatal classes at the time, so had all this stuff easily to hand), and suggested that I try it on.
The thing I most remember about it was that it was shockingly heavy – a good two or three times more than I was expecting it to be. And I only wore it for a minute or so, as opposed to several weeks at that weight.
@captainbathrobe
Cheers! Will most likely take you up on that.
Alsowanted to give my wishes to everyone who mentioned being pregnant. Hope you guys have a healthy and complication-free pregnancy.
Hello cynickal.
I have given my reasons why I think that in the paragraph prior to the sentence you quoted. It’d be nice if you addressed my reasons. The comparison of women with bottles of alcohol doesn’t hold up in my opinion because bottles don’t have expensive rights and the only thing you can do with alcohol is to drink it (while a trafficked woman is subject to a whole lot of stuff sex workers with some minimal rights aren’t), so not really the same thing.
The youtube video, yeah, you realize that video is a funny sketch not supposed to be taken seriously, don’t you? The point stands. You don’t rent personal relationships. And sex is one of those.
btw, yep, that was me using a different handle. This is the one for WEIT, Luc is the one for Pharyngula. It’s been so since a long time ago so I’m kind of stuck with both. Sorry if it’s confusing…
Even if, let’s say, you were right about “the demand for trafficked women” increasing because of legalization? *surrre*
WHO THE FUCK CARES. You still don’t get to criminalize what sex workers do with their own bodies. Crazy idea, I know!
Do you know any sex workers? Do you think their perspectives on this issue matter at all? Do you know anyone who HAS been trafficked? What gives you the right to pontificate on all of this, anyway?
I’m sorry, but sanctimonious whorephobia couched in THE POOR TRAFFICKED women stuff is more than I can take right now.
…
I can’t get a “regular” massage, can I? That’s renting a person’s touch and time, yes?
So everybody pregnant, best wishes to you, and I won’t engage the whorephobe. Not enough spoons. Just.. Not enough.
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/
Listen to sex workers. They’re the ones that count here, not me, and not YOU, you moralizing paternalistic fuck.
Jose: The question of trafficked women is difficult, but if people have a legal right to engage in a trade, it’s harder to compel them. When women are already in an underground economy it’s more likely to lead to abuses. When merely making a living can lead one to jail, the people who are engaged in trafficking are in a much stronger position.
After all, a pimp can just let her get arrested, and then not bail her out. A legal worker can’t be abused in that way.
“while a trafficked woman is subject to a whole lot of stuff sex workers with some minimal rights aren’t.”
The idea that “the priveleged sex workers” don’t get a say, or don’t even factor into the real horrors because they aren’t the poor, poor, trafficked women who this is REALLY all about and who they OBVIOUSLY can’t know about or care about or work with or understand, is one of the most disgusting and common silencing tactics in the arsenals of whorephobes, by the way.
I do want to make clear that it’s Jose here’s sanctimony and whorephobia that set me off,not merely his opinion on legalization, as there are, I’m sure, decent folk who disagree with me on such here,.
Sometimes they don’t have something else available. Or for some reason it’s not better for them. Helping sex workers to find alternative jobs is fine, forcing them out of their living not so much.
That obviously won’t happen before legalization.
Health insurance and other rights would be a good thing of legalization, not a drawback. And minimum wage? I’m pretty sure that they’re already paid more than the minimum wage (at the hour) and I don’t think it apply to self employing jobs anyway.
It already exist, and is a gigantic issue.
Obviously, some will some won’t. Just like today, some care, or not, to go to prostitutes who are nothing but slaves. Again, “not doing anything” doesn’t sound like a good solution.
That’s nonsense. Nobody hire anybody to care about them. That include house-employees, sport coaches, layers,… and anybody hirable. Not “caring” doesn’t mean “doesn’t want to respect basic rights”.
Which is what we have today: women (mostly, but not only) who can’t sue, who can’t always choose,…
Your thoughts are not proof. The existence of legal sex worker has obvious advantages for clients too: less risk for being arrested, less risk to get an std, being more moral… Maybe it would reduce the demand, maybe it would stay the same. Your thoughts are not convincing.
BUT, on the other hand, that’s not what sex is, or has to be. Maybe that’s what sex is for you, but you can’t impose that on the world, and I’m not even talking about sex work. Would you also prohibit casual sex? Or just shame it, stigmatize it, maybe. As if it’s not enough already.
They obviously are different, since people do rent sexual partners. It’s different because you don’t have to have an emotional or intellectual connection to have sex.
I don’t know any (nor sex worker btw) but I don’t really care. But criminalizing them is very problematic. But don’t listen to me, listen to her:
@Jose/Luc
You know what’s safe for doctors? Not doing medicine and doing something else instead. Doctors and nurses are exposed to a lot of diseases and/or violent patients. Does that mean doctors shouldn’t be allowed to practice medicine?
In practical terms, regulation will inevitably make all clothing manufacture more expensive due to the minimum wage, unemployment subsidies, health insurance and other rights. It will lead to a clothing manufacture black market composed exclusively by illegal immigrants and trafficked clothing manufacturers from third world countries. Most employers won’t mind rights or no rights. They don’t hire workers to care about them anyway. They hire workers to get a job done. That’s it. You think they care if the worker has a good time? I’ve heard some say the worker isn’t supposed to have it, since it’s just work. That’s just twisted, we’re talking about gainful employment ffs. Further, the other appeal to this unregulated, work black market, apart from being cheaper, is precisely that it’s unregulated: less restrictive, less rejection, less hassle (since the workers won’t need to pay taxes), no fear of being sued, etc.
I really think regulation will raise the demand for trafficked workers. Does this mean all work should be unregulated?
@Luc/jose (by the way, if you’re worried about being confusing, just pick one for this site and stick with it:)):
We were discussing therapists upthread. Should you be permitted to pay for a confidante?
It:)): = 🙂 ):
Although the mistake looks like some cool obscure symbol so I wish it was on purpose.
@Jose
The comparison was between the outlawing of goods and services, but thanks for being oblivious to the obvious. Your concern trolling is noted.
The point doesn’t stand because there are many human interactions that are services provided. Just because you feel that sex can only be a personal relationship doesn’t mean that everyone does or should. I don’t have to pay someone to get into a fight with me, but I tell you it’s a whole lot more socially acceptable for me to do that than assaulting people in the streets. Additionally, many people I have a personal relationship don’t want to fight with me, so I pay some one to do it. It is their profession.
People are never paid to interact with others. This made being a restaurant hostess/cashier for $5.50 an hour when I was sixteen super duper easly, as I never had to ever interact with customers or coworkers.
darksidecat – But that wasn’t PERSONAL, and aren’t you glad you weren’t exploited?
Sex work is definitely one of the most divisive issues in feminist theory today. While, as I’ve said, I dated a stripper and have acquaintance-friends who toe the edge of sex work in their performance art and activities in the S&M community, I don’t pretend to know what sex work is like for every woman. My partner and I used to have a friend who gave HJs and possibly BJs as part of her massage services, and while we’re no longer close (she lives far away now), she’s been great about speaking up in favor of the specific sex work she does when participating in mixed-group discussions of feminist issues. She says she feels empowered by the sex work she does, that it was a choice she actively made (even going so far as to take training courses in massage) – and more power to her! We should all be so lucky as to enjoy our occupations that much. She’s also careful to acknowledge that she does NOT romanticize sex work, and that it is not enjoyable or suitable for all women.
I also have no doubt, based on other voices and personal experiences I’ve taken from those discussions, that some women are coerced into sex work or trafficked into it, and their experiences and working conditions are utterly miserable. Their testimonials are valuable, too, and I respect the viewpoints they bring to discussions. I’ve also read various printed works and full-length books about sex work and those, too, provide incredible insight. Finally, as an avid fan of the late 60s through late 70s punk/alt-rock scene in New York City, I’ve learned that men, too, suffer from negative experiences of sex work. Dee Dee Ramone and Jim Carroll, among others from that scene, used to hustle out of economic necessity, and their experiences weren’t all peaches and cream by any stretch. They sold their bodies on the gritty streets of Manhattan’s LES to survive, while artists like Iggy Pop were able to charm their way into women’s pants in exchange for room, board, and hamburgers, and thus had more positive experiences with sexuality as currency. (Iggy LOVES hamburgers!)
My partner, too, a bisexual, sometimes-genderqueer man, has traded sex with women for room, board, and meals (he was homeless at ages 19-20 for nearly a year), and was on the receiving end of a younger guy trading sex for a place to sleep and some affection for the evening. Like me, he feels that portraying sex work as “all empowering, all the time” OR as “ubiquitously dehumanizing and akin to slavery,” with no acknowledgement of opposing or even more moderate views, is problematic. I also strongly believe in ending sex worker trafficking and bringing justice to its victims, though I might not agree with everyone on how to go about that. Where I diverge from some feminists, though, especially radical feminists, is when they insist on portraying negative experiences and testimonials of sex work as the norm, and deny or whitewash the experiences of women and men who genuinely enjoy what they do.
I guess the best example I can give of how frustrating it is to argue with someone representing one extreme with no acknowledgement of alternative POVs is an occasion when my partner and I were arguing with a young college guy who is majoring in cultural studies. This gentleman is a hard-and-fast Dworkin/McKinnon devotee, and universally views porn/stripping/sex work as destructive, and heterosexual intercourse as abusive. He has explicitly stated as such, so I am not exaggerating. The discussion went sour quickly, because my partner and I are frequent customers of BDSM or burlesque performances, occasional consumers of porn (especially queer porn, for both of us), and infrequent attendees of strip clubs – and the young man essentially accused us of oppressing women with our actions, desires, and consumption patterns.
In my case, discussing sex work and pornography with him felt less like a genuine discussion, and more like being told that, as a queer woman with a strong attraction for bisexual and lesbian, tomboy or femme-presenting cis and transwomen, I should hide my sexual proclivities and desires, shut the hell up, and go back in the closet. I spent my adolescence in the 90s hiding in that closet, while trying to get through the day in a tiny, semi-rural high school where “dyke” and “fag” were the preferred slurs, and being out was so risky that no one did it. I won’t go back to living that way, and it makes me feel really shitty to be told that my sexual orientation oppresses my sisters under patriarchy.
Note: I’m not accusing anyone here on ManBoobz of holding any particular views one way or the other, and I appreciate that this has been an engaging and respectful discussion so far. The type of discussion I’m talking about is the type that you’d be more likely to see on Twisty’s blog, Dirty White Boi’s blog (which is so anti-trans it makes me vomit), and other very radical sites of that ilk. If I ever do comment on those types of sites, I am careful to stay far, far away from any articles about sex work or pornography. Dirty White Boi has called me a “man” and a “crossdressing man” for not agreeing with her, so I avoid that site like the plague.
Well, if Slavey can be totally off topic…
I made the ex/it’s complicated listen the the MRA theme song yesterday. He made me turn it off halfway through because “this song is fucking terrible”.
Whoever they hope to recruit, it certainly won’t be music snobs.
@cynickal: YOU MADE A STAR WARS REFERENCE! AND IT WAS A JOKE! THANK YOU!!! Seriously, that is going to make me soooo happy for the next hour or so, because i am an autistic star wars fangirl nerd…