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antifeminism evil women manginas misandry misogyny MRA oppressed men patriarchy reactionary bullshit the spearhead

Spearheader: Put American women in Burqas “for their obese figures and even more obese whining mouths.”

Religion needs more of this dude.

Reactionary and “traditionalist” Men’s Rightsers tend to share a lot of the anti-Islam prejudices of the American right in general. When they talk about Islam it’s usually in vaguely apocalyptic terms, and usually with a side of anti-feminist conspiratorialism thrown in for good measure: Feminists are destroying Western Civilization and making the Muslim takeover inevitable!

But I’ve run across a few highly upvoted comments on the Spearhead recently which suggest that the generally less than warm feelings about Islam found in the Manospehre may be tinged with a certain amount of envy and even admiration.

Take this Rapses fellow here:

It is high time papa (patriarchy) take some harsh measures to discipline her little naughty girls (feminists). Papa has yielded too much to their tantrum and whining. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Western papa has to toughen up a bit and tell them that their stupid whims would not be met. These little girls are really not that tough as they show and still need papa to provide and protect them. See how Saudi papa deals with his girls and still his girls are not complaining.

51 upvotes, 10 downvotes, last I checked.

And then there’s Aharon :

I think there are many American women that American men would prefer to burqad up for their obese figures and even more obese whining mouths. Perhaps we can customize the burqad in America to include a dog muzzle. …

Feminism along with its allies has been very effective the past 45+ years in decimating the nuclear family along with traditional American values and ethics, and loyalty to church and synagogue. Most religious institutions are failing men in America. …  Men leave liberal places of worship because they can’t relate to the female-value emphasis. …

American men have been living – for generations – in a post Judeo-Christian modern American misandrist society that for the most part sold men out. Islam comes along and teaches Sharia Law will not discriminate against men, and that men are respected in Islam, etc. Bingo. … I can see American men in the future becoming increasingly interested in Islam.

He adds this bit of speculation at the end:

I can also see new pro Men’s religions being created and taking hold. I see them mostly as manly without the provider/protector/chivalry crap, and not mangina metro-sexual in their beliefs and values.

30 upvotes, 1 downvote.

Apparently any religion is okey dokey with this crowd – even one made up on the spot – so long as it’s butch enough.

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Skyal
Skyal
8 years ago

You wake up screaming every couple hours? 😉

Nice to meet someone who can verify it. I just remembered it from a summary of different studies I read a few years ago. Think it might be from a book called ‘Babies Remember Birth’ by David Chamberlain, PhD.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

MRAL, while peeing in an arc may be cool and come in handy, I don’t think about it to the point of watching youtube videos of it. Not really the same.

As a dude (and a 20 year old one with fuckall in the way of life experience), it’s incredibly flippant and condescending of you to tell women who may or may not want kids to do it for the lulz. There’s a few things I’m not doing, no matter how rewarding someone else may find it, and kids are one of those things. If you want to be taken somewhat seriously around here, you’re doin’ it wrong.

To all the expecting moms, good luck!

AbsintheDexterous
8 years ago

As a dude (and a 20 year old one with fuckall in the way of life experience), it’s incredibly flippant and condescending of you to tell women who may or may not want kids to do it for the lulz.

His thought really isn’t uncommon, I’ve heard some women say that they’re doing it for lulz, or at least, that’s what it comes down to. And to reiterate Ant-Moron’s Right’s comment, yeah, they get really disappointed when it’s not all clouds and fluffiness. But then they have the baby and while they know babies poop and pee and stuff, they are kinda shocked at how it’s not all unicorns once the baby is born. The total sad thing is, you can’t talk them out of this idea until they actually have a kid. And a lot of people like this will maintain that the next stage of development will be unicorns and are disappointed when it’s not. I have no kids, so sometimes I feel like a condescending jackass when I say, “You do know that toddlers cry and throw tantrums, right?” or “Think about your own teen years – didn’t you ever stomp around and get huffy?” Most of the time, I just keep my mouth shut, because apparently the fact that I don’t have kids means that I’ve never, ever interacted with any.

I mean, I don’t go around telling parents what to do, but some things should be expected, like tantruming toddlers, eye-rolling from 10 year olds, and “You’re unfair!” from teens. It happens.

ithiliana
8 years ago

In this thread so far (admit I haven’t read to end), I’ve seen MRAL talk about “pregnant people” (WTF?) and females — what’s the matter, dude, can you not say “women” without having serious rage attack.

It’s very GOOD to consider women people, of course, but your past usage and current comments (get pregnant just to have experience then dump the baby out for adoption, riiiiiiiiiiiight), do not indicate you see women as people.

Just that you have a hard time oh I don’t know talking about WOMEN unless you’re in ragecaplockbitches mode.

Weird, really, weird, and that’s on top of the womb envy bit.

Skeevy. Even, dare I say, CREEPY.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
8 years ago

My mom wanted kids but hated pregnancy and regaled my sister and I with all of the horrors we put her through.

Except birth, Sister was born in 5 hours and I popped out in 3 and a half.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
8 years ago

About babies remembering things-from what I understand it is the lack of ability to describe it that makes us unable to “remember” it.

Miss Pearl
Miss Pearl
8 years ago

I don’t know MRAL the way a lot of you guys do, but he does come across as a very, very naive little brother, prone to displays of temper/trolling, but also very much wanting to be included. I think his pregnancy comments were made innocently in reference to trying to conceive of the realities of being in possession of a reproductive system that can do cool shit, without much exposure to the realities. I get the impression he (sorry to talk over the top of your head MRAL) didn’t have much in the way of exposure to women as people growing up. I don’t think he had sisters to howl over break ups or ask him to pick up tampons, or close female friends to bitch about mutual gender related annoyances with.

Mind you, grawr! is probably a valid reaction to insulting propositions, even ones made with innocent intent, kinda like me prodding my brother in the tummy for trying to annoy a reaction out of me.

Dear MRAL:

The reason why people were unable to make the comparison between childbirth and entertaining excretion probably has to do with the long term historical problem of the act of bearing children being a leading killer of women, basically we started living longer as soon as human medical science worked that little problem out. It understandably leaves the possessors of wombs a little gun shy when the otherwise exciting prospect of incubating human life involved a high risk of dying in slow agony, and even today, leaving aside fringe cases of sepsis, child bearing routinely leaves you diabetic and wrecks massive changes on your body including nerve damage to your sexual happy places, vascular strain and cosmetically disliked stretch marks.

But I do wish science could give you a loaner womb so if you wanted to make a baby in a more active way you could, too.

~MP

filetofswedishfish
8 years ago

MRAL’s talk about babies is reminded me of my one really awful ex, who has become a Shining Example of Terribleness to be brought up in stories for the rest of my life, even after only two years together. I haven’t ever really wanted kids. Pregnancy and labor scares me silly, between the horror stories from my mom and all her 8 sisters, and then the two times I’ve been pregant
(both ended in terminations at 11 weeks and 14 weeks respectively) being utterly miserable. I just have no interest, and I’m not much of a fan of kids before they can form full sentences.

Anyhow. This guy was a titch older than me. At the time I was 22-23 and he was around 27. He’d been married super young whilst in the Army, and had a kid who he purposely had no contact with and didn’t pay child support for. He let his mom pay it for him (charming). He lied to me and told me he didn’t wanna do that again, and then switched on me, telling me how badly he wanted to marry me and how badly he wanted me to bear his children. I told him the complications, unpleasantness and difficulty surrounding pregnancy and how I was just not interested in that or infants/toddlers. I also told him how pregnancy had nearly killed my mom, and how much fun being pregnant wasn’t the two times I was. He would hear none of it though. His justification for me going through that? “It can’t be that bad! Besides, I’ll be there to hold your hand, etc, and it’s only 9 months!”, plus he thought pregnant ladies were sexy and he reassured me he’d still have sex with me while pregnant. He was basically a paragon of Not Getting It.

zhinxy
8 years ago

“By the way, feminists tell women what to do with their bodies all the time. “Don’t punch people!”, “Don’t assault people!”, “Hire women!”. Not saying this is unreasonable, but it opens a can of worms.”

Oh for the love of every fucking thing. I know you’re a troll, but try harder.

I kinda wanna see the journey of a kid who tracks down his adoptive mother, and gets “Oh, I just wanted to know what being pregnant was like. Figured I’d adopt you out after” as the tale of how he came to be.

It’s probably AN AWESOME hallmark special in MRAL world.

KristinMH
8 years ago

Ithiliana, I thought the phrase “pregnant people” was used to be inclusive of trans men who keep their uteri and use them for reproduction. Admittedly this is a very small number of people, but they do exist.

Skyal, thanks for the good wishes! Here in Ontario midwifery is pretty well integrated into the medical system, which is awesome. I’m very low-risk, so I’ve had midwifery care throughout my pregnancy and I’ve been really happy.with it.

Up until about 3 weeks ago I found pregnancy very easy, but it’s still not something I would undertake on a lark. If only because abstaining from alcohol for 9 months is a total bummer. The stretching pains and heartburn are no fun either.

zhinxy
8 years ago

“Ithiliana, I thought the phrase “pregnant people” was used to be inclusive of trans men who keep their uteri and use them for reproduction. Admittedly this is a very small number of people, but they do exist.”

Yeah, I try to use it that way, but I doubt MRAL was going for that… I think he just has a weird aversion to talking about women doing normal or positive things, specifically as women, as ithiliana pointed out.

Oh, now we’re piling on and accusing him of horribleness, so he’s justified in defending himself and can stay all day, I bet.
….

“PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth | January 11, 2012 at 7:50 am
About babies remembering things-from what I understand it is the lack of ability to describe it that makes us unable to “remember” it.”

As for this and other questions as to fetus memory… There’s a fascinating study somewhere that followed twins from the third trimester through ultrasounds, etc, and then up to two years to see if they repeated behaviors from when they were in the womb.

One pair had a habit of stroking each other’s heads in the womb, and almost until out of the toddler stage would get on opposite sides of a curtain or blanket, as if to simulate the membranes between them, and would stroke each other’s heads just as observed when they were in there . So there IS evidence that what’s going on in there at the end of our gestation period is forming real neuron connections and we’re learning or developing habits in there.*

Why we can’t remember baby stuff is a whole big complicated thingy, in general. I tend to go with lack the words too, but who knows?

*Now wondering when/if yuppie parents will start freaking out about how if their baby doesn’t have a twin they aren’t getting enough stimulation in there!

captainbathrobe
8 years ago

MRAL, there’s a whole sub-field of psychology known as infant-parent mental health (it’s the fields I work in right now). Where you are, Boston, is one of the best places to be to study this field. I’m not sure about your particular university, but Ed Tronick at Boston Children’s Hospital and UMass is one off the world’s foremost authorities on the subject. If you’re interested.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

MRAL, there’s a whole sub-field of psychology known as infant-parent mental health (it’s the fields I work in right now).

cb, that is so cool! I want to go into counselling, but the siren song of pure academia calls to me sometimes. There’s just so many interesting things to discover.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Of course, maybe if I want to get into grad school I should learn to say there are so many things to discover…

Pecunium
8 years ago

Dracula: In keeping with the footwear theme, I think “pebble in the shoe of humanity” works.

Gives them too much irritant value. I think they are more the sweat in the socks of humanity.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@Pecuinum

The sweaty socks of humanity seems very apt. Most people are unaware they’re even there until they’re exposed, and then they’re shocked by the mouldy, pungent stench of concentrated. unoriginal misogyny.

@Viscaria

Are you applying to grad schools? Good luck!! I’m mad jealous of you, What counselling are you planning on going into?

Molly Ren
8 years ago

Sweatsocks in the locker room of humanity? 😛

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Not right away, Shadow, I’ve still got a year of undergrad after this (longest undergrad ever XD). Probably not even then 🙂 my grades probably won’t get me in, so I’m going to need a few years of work experience in a related field. But it’s the long-term dream!

I would like to work in marriage and family I think… but I’m not sure. Definitely not clinical. Were you thinking of counselling as well?

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@Molly Ren

They’re not a big enough movement to stink up the whole locker room 😛

@Viscaria

I’m your long lost twin actually, it’s nice to finally track you down 😛 I’m still in undergrad but it’s been dragging on SO long, through my own fault. I’m planning on doing my grad in marriage and family counselling as well, but I plan on practicing family counselling only. I’m still a little up in the air though. I made the mistake of going into undergrad with absolutely no idea what I wanted to do so I’ve been jumping between degrees trying to find something. Plus as an only, and late, child, my home for the next couple of decades is set so I wanna do my degree outside Canada and that’ll cost me. Plus there’s the grades, Dear God the grades!

ithiliana
8 years ago

@KristinMJ: I thought about that possibility for about 10 seconds, remembered it was MRAL we’re dealing with, and rejected the idea–especially given the other patterns.

Adding to the good wishes for you!

ithiliana
8 years ago

Plus, talking about pregnant men is sort of cool–I cannot speak for anybody else, and I doubt there’s any one way that trans men who were pregnant would choose to identify, but “people” is sometimes used as euphemism rather than inclusive choice.

captainbathrobe
8 years ago

@Viscaria,

I am actually a Marriage and Family Therapist IRL, so if you ever want to chat about the field, feel free to PM me on the forum.

You too, Shadow, or anyone else who’s interested. 🙂

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

@ithaliana: I had the exact same thought than you, but I decided to pretend, against the odds, that he said people to be inclusive. Because I like when people are nice, being inclusive are nice, and if I don’t pretend people are a bit nicer than they are I’ll end up stabbing myself with a spoon to escape the bitterness and hatred of this world.

🙂

ithiliana
8 years ago

*sneaks in and removes all of Kyrie’s spoons*

**offers virtual hugs if they’re acceptable**

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@Shadow, we’re totally the same person! I’m thinking there’s a Tyler Durden thing going on here.

@captainbathrobe, aww, thank you, that’s a really thoughtful offer and I’ll probably take you up on it.

Hey I forgot to mention earlier, best of luck to everyone who spoke about their pregnancies!

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

ithaliana: they’re completely acceptable and accepted. Thank you.

cynickal
cynickal
8 years ago

@Raoul

Yes, MGTOW are hateful. It is our strength and our salvation. One day, we will be the only ones left standing. Why? Because we hated just that little bit more than the next man.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Yes, sweetie, go back to your basement and Force Bolt those nasty Jedi in the faces and let the adults talk.

@Explore Nature, does your copy of Freakonomics also show how the decline in pirates has cause global warming?

@Luc

I really think legalization will raise the demand for trafficked women.

Yes, because when we repealed the 18th Amendment we saw such an increase in bootlegging moonshine.

You don’t rent friends. You don’t rent classmates. You don’t rent complete strangers with whom you occasionally have interesting conversations in the train or the bus.

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

While heavily pregnant with our first, my wife brought an empathy belly home from work once (she was teaching antenatal classes at the time, so had all this stuff easily to hand), and suggested that I try it on.

The thing I most remember about it was that it was shockingly heavy – a good two or three times more than I was expecting it to be. And I only wore it for a minute or so, as opposed to several weeks at that weight.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@captainbathrobe

Cheers! Will most likely take you up on that.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Alsowanted to give my wishes to everyone who mentioned being pregnant. Hope you guys have a healthy and complication-free pregnancy.

jose
jose
8 years ago

Hello cynickal.

I have given my reasons why I think that in the paragraph prior to the sentence you quoted. It’d be nice if you addressed my reasons. The comparison of women with bottles of alcohol doesn’t hold up in my opinion because bottles don’t have expensive rights and the only thing you can do with alcohol is to drink it (while a trafficked woman is subject to a whole lot of stuff sex workers with some minimal rights aren’t), so not really the same thing.

The youtube video, yeah, you realize that video is a funny sketch not supposed to be taken seriously, don’t you? The point stands. You don’t rent personal relationships. And sex is one of those.

jose
jose
8 years ago

btw, yep, that was me using a different handle. This is the one for WEIT, Luc is the one for Pharyngula. It’s been so since a long time ago so I’m kind of stuck with both. Sorry if it’s confusing…

zhinxy
8 years ago

Even if, let’s say, you were right about “the demand for trafficked women” increasing because of legalization? *surrre*
WHO THE FUCK CARES. You still don’t get to criminalize what sex workers do with their own bodies. Crazy idea, I know!

Do you know any sex workers? Do you think their perspectives on this issue matter at all? Do you know anyone who HAS been trafficked? What gives you the right to pontificate on all of this, anyway?

I’m sorry, but sanctimonious whorephobia couched in THE POOR TRAFFICKED women stuff is more than I can take right now.

I can’t get a “regular” massage, can I? That’s renting a person’s touch and time, yes?

zhinxy
8 years ago

So everybody pregnant, best wishes to you, and I won’t engage the whorephobe. Not enough spoons. Just.. Not enough.

http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/

Listen to sex workers. They’re the ones that count here, not me, and not YOU, you moralizing paternalistic fuck.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Jose: The question of trafficked women is difficult, but if people have a legal right to engage in a trade, it’s harder to compel them. When women are already in an underground economy it’s more likely to lead to abuses. When merely making a living can lead one to jail, the people who are engaged in trafficking are in a much stronger position.

After all, a pimp can just let her get arrested, and then not bail her out. A legal worker can’t be abused in that way.

zhinxy
8 years ago

“while a trafficked woman is subject to a whole lot of stuff sex workers with some minimal rights aren’t.”

The idea that “the priveleged sex workers” don’t get a say, or don’t even factor into the real horrors because they aren’t the poor, poor, trafficked women who this is REALLY all about and who they OBVIOUSLY can’t know about or care about or work with or understand, is one of the most disgusting and common silencing tactics in the arsenals of whorephobes, by the way.

zhinxy
8 years ago

I do want to make clear that it’s Jose here’s sanctimony and whorephobia that set me off,not merely his opinion on legalization, as there are, I’m sure, decent folk who disagree with me on such here,.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

You know what’s safe for sex workers? Not doing sex work and doing something else instead.

Sometimes they don’t have something else available. Or for some reason it’s not better for them. Helping sex workers to find alternative jobs is fine, forcing them out of their living not so much.

When I see the same standards concerning infection that I see in hospitals and clinics (where those concerns are really taken seriously) applied to sex work, then we’ll talk.

That obviously won’t happen before legalization.

In practical terms, legalization will inevitably make sex work more expensive due to the minimum wage, unemployment subsidies, health insurance and other rights.

Health insurance and other rights would be a good thing of legalization, not a drawback. And minimum wage? I’m pretty sure that they’re already paid more than the minimum wage (at the hour) and I don’t think it apply to self employing jobs anyway.

It will lead to a sex black market composed exclusively by trafficked women from third world countries.

It already exist, and is a gigantic issue.

Most Johns won’t mind rights or no rights.

Obviously, some will some won’t. Just like today, some care, or not, to go to prostitutes who are nothing but slaves. Again, “not doing anything” doesn’t sound like a good solution.

They don’t hire prostitutes to care about them anyway

That’s nonsense. Nobody hire anybody to care about them. That include house-employees, sport coaches, layers,… and anybody hirable. Not “caring” doesn’t mean “doesn’t want to respect basic rights”.

apart from being cheaper, is precisely that it’s unregulated: less restrictive, less rejection, less hassle (since they won’t need to prove they don’t have STDs), no fear of being sued, etc.

Which is what we have today: women (mostly, but not only) who can’t sue, who can’t always choose,…

I really think legalization will raise the demand for trafficked women.

Your thoughts are not proof. The existence of legal sex worker has obvious advantages for clients too: less risk for being arrested, less risk to get an std, being more moral… Maybe it would reduce the demand, maybe it would stay the same. Your thoughts are not convincing.

You know sex, the fun thing people do because it’s fun and because it’s a whole connection of mind and body to a fellow human being unlike any other thing we have. In light of this conception of sex, sex-work becomes absurd.

BUT, on the other hand, that’s not what sex is, or has to be. Maybe that’s what sex is for you, but you can’t impose that on the world, and I’m not even talking about sex work. Would you also prohibit casual sex? Or just shame it, stigmatize it, maybe. As if it’s not enough already.

You don’t rent friends. You don’t rent classmates. You don’t rent complete strangers with whom you occasionally have interesting conversations in the train or the bus. Sexual partners aren’t different.

They obviously are different, since people do rent sexual partners. It’s different because you don’t have to have an emotional or intellectual connection to have sex.

As for their clients, speaking from the ones I’ve known, I *really* don’t think we should de-estigmatize those. I’ve yet to see a John with a heart of gold. Not holding my breath…

I don’t know any (nor sex worker btw) but I don’t really care. But criminalizing them is very problematic. But don’t listen to me, listen to her:

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

@Jose/Luc

You know what’s safe for sex workers? Not doing sex work and doing something else instead. When I see the same standards concerning infection that I see in hospitals and clinics (where those concerns are really taken seriously) applied to sex work, then we’ll talk.

You know what’s safe for doctors? Not doing medicine and doing something else instead. Doctors and nurses are exposed to a lot of diseases and/or violent patients. Does that mean doctors shouldn’t be allowed to practice medicine?

In practical terms, legalization will inevitably make sex work more expensive due to the minimum wage, unemployment subsidies, health insurance and other rights. It will lead to a sex black market composed exclusively by trafficked women from third world countries. Most Johns won’t mind rights or no rights. They don’t hire prostitutes to care about them anyway, or even to have sex with them. They hire prostitutes to wank off using a body instead of their hand. That’s it. You think they care if the prostitute has a good time? I’ve heard some say the prostitute isn’t supposed to have it, since it’s just work. That’s just twisted, we’re talking about sex ffs. Further, the other appeal to this unregulated, black sex market, apart from being cheaper, is precisely that it’s unregulated: less restrictive, less rejection, less hassle (since they won’t need to prove they don’t have STDs), no fear of being sued, etc.

I really think legalization will raise the demand for trafficked women.

In practical terms, regulation will inevitably make all clothing manufacture more expensive due to the minimum wage, unemployment subsidies, health insurance and other rights. It will lead to a clothing manufacture black market composed exclusively by illegal immigrants and trafficked clothing manufacturers from third world countries. Most employers won’t mind rights or no rights. They don’t hire workers to care about them anyway. They hire workers to get a job done. That’s it. You think they care if the worker has a good time? I’ve heard some say the worker isn’t supposed to have it, since it’s just work. That’s just twisted, we’re talking about gainful employment ffs. Further, the other appeal to this unregulated, work black market, apart from being cheaper, is precisely that it’s unregulated: less restrictive, less rejection, less hassle (since the workers won’t need to pay taxes), no fear of being sued, etc.

I really think regulation will raise the demand for trafficked workers. Does this mean all work should be unregulated?

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@Luc/jose (by the way, if you’re worried about being confusing, just pick one for this site and stick with it:)):

You don’t rent friends. You don’t rent classmates. You don’t rent complete strangers with whom you occasionally have interesting conversations in the train or the bus. Sexual partners aren’t different.

We were discussing therapists upthread. Should you be permitted to pay for a confidante?

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

It:)): = 🙂 ):

Although the mistake looks like some cool obscure symbol so I wish it was on purpose.

cynickal
cynickal
8 years ago

@Jose

The comparison of women with bottles of alcohol doesn’t hold up in my opinion because bottles don’t have expensive rights and the only thing you can do with alcohol is to drink it (while a trafficked woman is subject to a whole lot of stuff sex workers with some minimal rights aren’t), so not really the same thing.

The comparison was between the outlawing of goods and services, but thanks for being oblivious to the obvious. Your concern trolling is noted.

The youtube video, yeah, you realize that video is a funny sketch not supposed to be taken seriously, don’t you? The point stands. You don’t rent personal relationships. And sex is one of those.

The point doesn’t stand because there are many human interactions that are services provided. Just because you feel that sex can only be a personal relationship doesn’t mean that everyone does or should. I don’t have to pay someone to get into a fight with me, but I tell you it’s a whole lot more socially acceptable for me to do that than assaulting people in the streets. Additionally, many people I have a personal relationship don’t want to fight with me, so I pay some one to do it. It is their profession.

darksidecat
darksidecat
8 years ago

People are never paid to interact with others. This made being a restaurant hostess/cashier for $5.50 an hour when I was sixteen super duper easly, as I never had to ever interact with customers or coworkers.

zhinxy
8 years ago

darksidecat – But that wasn’t PERSONAL, and aren’t you glad you weren’t exploited?

Anti-Moron's-Rights
Anti-Moron's-Rights
8 years ago

Sex work is definitely one of the most divisive issues in feminist theory today. While, as I’ve said, I dated a stripper and have acquaintance-friends who toe the edge of sex work in their performance art and activities in the S&M community, I don’t pretend to know what sex work is like for every woman. My partner and I used to have a friend who gave HJs and possibly BJs as part of her massage services, and while we’re no longer close (she lives far away now), she’s been great about speaking up in favor of the specific sex work she does when participating in mixed-group discussions of feminist issues. She says she feels empowered by the sex work she does, that it was a choice she actively made (even going so far as to take training courses in massage) – and more power to her! We should all be so lucky as to enjoy our occupations that much. She’s also careful to acknowledge that she does NOT romanticize sex work, and that it is not enjoyable or suitable for all women.

I also have no doubt, based on other voices and personal experiences I’ve taken from those discussions, that some women are coerced into sex work or trafficked into it, and their experiences and working conditions are utterly miserable. Their testimonials are valuable, too, and I respect the viewpoints they bring to discussions. I’ve also read various printed works and full-length books about sex work and those, too, provide incredible insight. Finally, as an avid fan of the late 60s through late 70s punk/alt-rock scene in New York City, I’ve learned that men, too, suffer from negative experiences of sex work. Dee Dee Ramone and Jim Carroll, among others from that scene, used to hustle out of economic necessity, and their experiences weren’t all peaches and cream by any stretch. They sold their bodies on the gritty streets of Manhattan’s LES to survive, while artists like Iggy Pop were able to charm their way into women’s pants in exchange for room, board, and hamburgers, and thus had more positive experiences with sexuality as currency. (Iggy LOVES hamburgers!)

My partner, too, a bisexual, sometimes-genderqueer man, has traded sex with women for room, board, and meals (he was homeless at ages 19-20 for nearly a year), and was on the receiving end of a younger guy trading sex for a place to sleep and some affection for the evening. Like me, he feels that portraying sex work as “all empowering, all the time” OR as “ubiquitously dehumanizing and akin to slavery,” with no acknowledgement of opposing or even more moderate views, is problematic. I also strongly believe in ending sex worker trafficking and bringing justice to its victims, though I might not agree with everyone on how to go about that. Where I diverge from some feminists, though, especially radical feminists, is when they insist on portraying negative experiences and testimonials of sex work as the norm, and deny or whitewash the experiences of women and men who genuinely enjoy what they do.

I guess the best example I can give of how frustrating it is to argue with someone representing one extreme with no acknowledgement of alternative POVs is an occasion when my partner and I were arguing with a young college guy who is majoring in cultural studies. This gentleman is a hard-and-fast Dworkin/McKinnon devotee, and universally views porn/stripping/sex work as destructive, and heterosexual intercourse as abusive. He has explicitly stated as such, so I am not exaggerating. The discussion went sour quickly, because my partner and I are frequent customers of BDSM or burlesque performances, occasional consumers of porn (especially queer porn, for both of us), and infrequent attendees of strip clubs – and the young man essentially accused us of oppressing women with our actions, desires, and consumption patterns.

In my case, discussing sex work and pornography with him felt less like a genuine discussion, and more like being told that, as a queer woman with a strong attraction for bisexual and lesbian, tomboy or femme-presenting cis and transwomen, I should hide my sexual proclivities and desires, shut the hell up, and go back in the closet. I spent my adolescence in the 90s hiding in that closet, while trying to get through the day in a tiny, semi-rural high school where “dyke” and “fag” were the preferred slurs, and being out was so risky that no one did it. I won’t go back to living that way, and it makes me feel really shitty to be told that my sexual orientation oppresses my sisters under patriarchy.

Note: I’m not accusing anyone here on ManBoobz of holding any particular views one way or the other, and I appreciate that this has been an engaging and respectful discussion so far. The type of discussion I’m talking about is the type that you’d be more likely to see on Twisty’s blog, Dirty White Boi’s blog (which is so anti-trans it makes me vomit), and other very radical sites of that ilk. If I ever do comment on those types of sites, I am careful to stay far, far away from any articles about sex work or pornography. Dirty White Boi has called me a “man” and a “crossdressing man” for not agreeing with her, so I avoid that site like the plague.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Well, if Slavey can be totally off topic…

I made the ex/it’s complicated listen the the MRA theme song yesterday. He made me turn it off halfway through because “this song is fucking terrible”.

Whoever they hope to recruit, it certainly won’t be music snobs.

MKlein
MKlein
8 years ago

@cynickal: YOU MADE A STAR WARS REFERENCE! AND IT WAS A JOKE! THANK YOU!!! Seriously, that is going to make me soooo happy for the next hour or so, because i am an autistic star wars fangirl nerd…