When you think they can’t get any creepier, they do. Here’s a disturbing new Men’s Rights meme-in-formation I’ve recently run across.
In a late-December rant about anti-porn feminist Gale Dines, the self-proclaimed “Male Renaissance Agitator” who calls himself Fidelbogen wrote:
In olden days of rough village justice she’d have gotten the scold’s bridle, or the the ducking stool, or the stocks. And quite right.
A couple of days later, regular A Voice for Men commenter DruidV, perhaps inspired by Fidebogen’s post, made a strikingly similar suggestion on that site:
I urge all Men here to have a look at wiki’s description of what was commonly known as a scold’s bridle, or the Branks. For whatever foolish reason, this item was done away with some time ago. This invention to end Men’s suffering, needs to be brought back into public acceptance and application, post haste, imo.
So let’s take a look at the Wikipedia page he linked to and see just what exactly this “Scold’s Bridle” was:
A scold’s bridle, sometimes called “the branks”, as well as “brank’s bridle” was a punishment device used primarily on women, as a form of torture and public humiliation.[1] It was an iron muzzle in an iron framework that enclosed the head. The bridle-bit (or curb-plate) was about 2 inches long and 1 inch broad, projected into the mouth and pressed down on top of the tongue[2]. The “curb-plate” was frequently studded with spikes, so that if the tongue moved, it inflicted pain and made speaking impossible.[3] Wives that were seen as witches, shrews and scolds, were forced to wear a brank’s bridle, which had been locked on the head of the woman and sometimes had a ring and chain attached to it so her husband could parade her around town and the town’s people could scold her and treat her with contempt; at times smearing excrement on her and beating her, sometimes to death.
Emphasis mine.
I will be charitable and assume that both Fidelbogen and DruidV were joking. That is, they don’t literally want to strap women’s heads into ghastly torture devices, smear them with shit and beat them to death. They just think that the very notion is hilarious.
Whether the suggestions were made seriously or not, they’re still pretty hateful. Given that Fidelbogen was recently taken aboard as a regular writer for A Voice for Men, and that DruidV’s comment on that site got mostly upvotes (and no criticism) from the regulars there, would it be fair to call A Voice for Men the “underbelly of a hate movement?”
I’m not sure why that particular phrase popped into my head, but somehow it seems all too appropriate.
sorry html fail…
pecunium: I’m a bit lost: didn’t he speak against it not so long ago? Did he changed his mind or just lied?
Ah, I see EN has become openly pro-torture. No huge surprise.
You know, it just occurs to me now that a woman locked into a scold’s bridle would still be able to type, which means most MRA guys still wouldn’t be safe around her. It looks as though Meller has already taken this into account.
“As a scholar of the Fidebogian school myself, I would argue that the use of scold’s bridles was neither a good nor a bad thing, but rather a morally indifferent state of affairs, based on a cultural consensus that was shared by all of the men. [W]as it really such an unspeakable crime that these women had absolutely no voice–by which I mean, they were in too much unbearable pain to form words– during that comparatively trifling span of years? Furthermore, feminists were never at any time deprived of any rights. You see, feminism simply didn’t exist in the first place — or not during the period when the so-called deprivation occurred. I mean that “rights” are only a figment. Only a mentation. Only a notion. Only a construct. Rights do not exist in their own right. They are not some mystical pure essence which hangs in the air all by itself — they must be conjured into existence by a strictly human will-to-power, and fixed by law or custom.”
Oh, Crumbelieveable. It’s gorgeous, it’s fantastic, what can I say. But it’s much too good for the likes of me, and if it’s much too good for the likes of me, how much too good must it be for the likes of real trolls? I’m reminded, not of how unwise it is to cast pearls before swine, but of how unwise it is to cook swine 5-course French dinners and then to expect them to learn the kind of good table manners which 5-course French dinners demand. OTOH, I, who have learnt to avoid 5-course French dinners for quite other reasons, am happy now and again to see the table set for one, just b/c more 5-course French dinners make the world a better place. So keep on cooking, I guess.
I haven’t read Mary Poppins, but the cool green sex thing … I thought you could kinda see that in the movie, Disneyfied though it was. I mean, she’s totally doing Bert, right? And all the characters have a crush on her.
You mean, like, people he meets in real life? It’s gotta be absolutely clear to Meller that everyone on this site thinks he’s garbage.
Not sure, but I think cool green core was noted in some fashion by little zhinxy last time she read the books, at which time she was little and impressionable. Vague memories.
And if I recall correctly, he did not write the article on their site, and it is clear it is intended as a joke. Even the comment on their site barely got any response.
No more than I think feminists should carry out public acts of violence against men to make the feminist message heard.
So no one mocked the man except for the person who did? You may want to rephrase that. At any rate, if you would like to check and see if any of you or your commenters objected to Marcotte’s mockery of Ball, have at it. There is also this other thread where two of your regulars literally objected to a poster calling Ball “kindling.”
Nevertheless, you again tried to make something out of nothing. Or do you honestly think five votes (which you could have done yourself) means AVFM is the “underbelly of a hate movement?” I get the tit-for-tat thinking behind that comment, but I want to know if you honestly think five anonymous votes makes an entire site “teh evil.”
After several years of reading various men’s rights blogs, I have never had a single men’s rights activist treat me badly because I am male survivor. The worst that happened was one man said that if I got triggered during sex I was doing something wrong. Other than that, they have been nothing but supportive. Feminists are the only ones I ever see pulling the “wow, the fact that you’re hurting is so offensive to me! what about my feelings?!” routine when male survivors talk about their abuse.
We’ve been through this before, TS, and your usual derailing attempts are not going to work. You need a new routine.
Don’t strain yourself moving those goalposts, TS.
Toysoldier, if somebody say something horrible, nobody agrees with it and the only reactions are people who disagrees, then it is the equivalent of a big downvote. Which mean the comment is not representative of what the group think. (and who is number two who called Ball “kindling”? I can only see fuck mras)
“After several years of reading various men’s rights blogs, I have never had a single men’s rights activist treat me badly because I am male survivor. ”
NWO, MRA troll resident, recently said that denying sex to a man was worse than raping him.
“Feminists are the only ones I ever see pulling the “wow, the fact that you’re hurting is so offensive to me! what about my feelings?!” ”
I don’t know who you’re talking about, but if that happened here you definitely need to show us the comments. Which I don’t think will happen.
What will happen is that he’ll show us comments that people made criticising him for something entirely unrelated to the abuse he suffered, and claim that they’re examples of feminists attacking him specifically for being a victim.
As I said, we’ve been through this before, on multiple different blogs actually. His routine never changes.
Of course, Marcotte, according to the very link TS posted, did not mock Ball. She merely pointed out, accurately, that abusers often use suicide or the threat thereof as a method of control or revenge. Whatever you may think of her comment, it wasn’t mockery. What fries TS is the refusal to accept the MRA narrative of Ball as a Glorious Martyr.
Toysoldier, once again you’re being completely dishonest. This is what you said in hyour earlier comment:
1) I did not make a post mocking him
2) There were not “several” commenters who had made fun of him, nor did “they” “continue” to make fun of him (since “they” hadn’t made fun of him in the first place)
3) I did not “defend” this thing, because it never happened, and because I don’t think Tom Ball deserves mockery. He was obviously a man in great pain. But he also ADVOCATED TERRORISM, specifically firebombing courthouses and police stations, even though he knew this would likely kill people.
Basically, your version of events here is completely made up.
On to your current comment:
4) One person made a comment calling Ball “kindling.” Numerous people (at least five) criticized him for it, including me.
5) I was holding AVfM ot the same standard it holds the RedFem hum to. That’s why I used the phrase “underbelly of a hate movement,” and linked to a post on AVfM that used that term.
6) If you think I’m judging AVFM based on this one comment, I invite you to read my numerous other posts here on AVFM. Or simply to read the articles and comments there.
At this point I’m putting you on moderation for your continued misrepresentations, a clear and repeated violation of my comment policy.
EDITED: I made a few changes to this comment immediately after I posted it.
Also, as Capt. bathrobe said, Marcotte didn’t mock him.
“There is also this other thread where two of your regulars literally objected to a poster calling Ball “kindling.””
I had another look at that thread, and out of all the posts directly responding to it – that’s DIRECTLY RESPONDING TO IT, not the peripheral conversations going on in that thread – every single one quite rightly said that wasn’t OK and challenged it. As usual, you are lying and being dishonest.
Also Marcotte didn’t mock – she pointed out that such a violent, destructive act as Ball’s suicide was was probably a final way of getting back at his wife. That was speculation and we don’t know if it’s true, but I think it’s worth noting that some men do react to the potential break-up of their families in a catastrophically violent way. Here’s a few examples from the UK just this year of this happening:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16385417
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/14/leeds-man-turned-on-family?INTCMP=SRCH
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/09/melton-mowbray-policeman-kills-wife-child?INTCMP=SRCH
All cases of men murdering their families, all in the UK this year. I could find more, if you like! I’ll be honest, I find this frightening.
Do you know what I wish had been done with these men? I think they all could have done with someone to talk to, someone to tell them that losing their job, suffering severe money worries or facing a divorce wasn’t the end of the world. If not that, just convince them that feeling like they do does not give them a justification for taking the lives of others! I don’t think they were intrinsically evil or anything, I just think they were probably all not very well but expectations of men to be stoical and not cry/talk about their problems encouraged them to build things up in their minds and probably visit MRA sites which encouraged them to view children as possessions to be destroyed or cherished at will rather than human beings and women as the enemy,
Also, full disclosure here and probably a TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse as well, just in case…
I was sexually abused and raped as a child during the ages 8-10. It is only in recent years that I’ve started to talk about it and feel better about myself. I’ve suffered on and off with depression over the years and used to self-harm. I’m now in a place in my life where I’m a lot happier about myself and so feel more confident about speaking about it.
I say this because honestly TS makes me really angry. I really feel for him and the abuse he’s suffered, as I would any abuse victim I encountered. But the fact that he seems to completely disregard female victims – unless their abuser was female – in the name of his own personal vendetta against women in general and feminists in particular is disappointing at best and infuriating/ offensive at worst.
Hey, TS! I was raped too! By A MAN!!! I realise he was a bad man, so note that I’m not angry at men in general as a result of this! You cannot erase me or my experience, no matter how hard you try!
I’m a survivor too and honestly I have open arms for any fellow survivor no matter their who they are. But if my experience, what I went through, means fuck all to you because I’m female? In all seriousness, fuck you.
Sorry for the long post – for personal reasons, obviously, TS makes me particularly angry.
(Hugs Ponkz)
Those news stories are infuriating. I can understand the reluctance to draw any conclusion about what happened because I’m a journalist too and they don’t have actual evidence yet, but the quote from neighbors are infuriating. There’s a certain subtle spin involved in picking quotes that are all about how lovely the presumed murderer was, though, and the quotes from the neighbors and minister are infuriating.
If someone kills their entire family then they are not “a nice bloke”, and I will not hold them in my thoughts or (hypothetical in my case) prayers.
I agree that there was maybe a propensity to violence in these cases already, but I really do wonder if someone had maybe taken one of these men aside to have a sit down and a coffee and asked “Are you OK?”, that might’ve changed things.
It’s awful what they’ve done though and, while I’ve every sympathy for people who take their own lives, no-one has a right to take the life of another.
It strikes me particularly that in a lot of these cases that parents killing their children – and women can be just as guilty of this, it’s not just men – seem to view their children as possessions to do with what they will and not as human beings in their own right. MRAs are so guilty of this sort of thinking.
I first got interested in the men’s rights movement because I felt like I was used as a tug of war rope by my parents when they were divorcing and I thought the father’s rights movement was against that. I was bitterly disappointed to find that actually they didn’t give a fuck about the child’s experience, they just wanted a firmer grip of the rope for men than women get.
I do think that men need more emotional outlets, and that we need to make a cultural change to make it easier for them to talk about their emotions. If those men had dealt with their feelings in non-violent ways I’d have been all for the counselling and sympathy approach.
The moment someone deals with their feelings by turning their rage/confusion/existential angst on other people, though, my sympathy for them ends. You don’t get to kill people no matter how unhappy you are.
Exactly – the minute you direct your issues or whatever on someone else, you lose all sympathy. Completely agree with that.
Marcotte in particular is a trigger for these guys. You can literally say anything about her and these guys will believe it, because Duke LaCrosse! She’s the Dr. Evil of feminists.
CassandraSays, Pecunium, Zhinxi, and other feminists who have raised the question ad infinitum, et al
Alright, when it comes to any and all brutality, abuse, terrorism, beating, or torture of women, for any and all reasons, it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!
Anybody, even in a marital relationship, who does this to their mate or partner, should be penalized to the full extent to the law for whatever penalties should be imposed on those found guilty of assault on a total stranger!
There are two small considerations that I would appreciate:
1) the normal Anglo-Saxon protection for the defendent regarding presumption of innocence and trial by a jury of one’s peers be preserved.
2) Any mate who incites such rage or violence awards a de facto divorce to the injured partner, who may discard the disagreeable mate immediately and completely! The quarrelsomeness, bitterness, and rage inflicted upon the partner (in most cases, the husband or boyfriend) gives him the unilateral right to discontinue the relationship in full! If the woman can’t create a happy and pleasing home for her mate, this should be considered ipso facto proof of unfit motherhood and she permanently forfeits any right to her children!
She gets complete protections against beatings, abuse, verbal, sexual, or physical assault, and HE gets protection against feminine lies, malice, and greed!
Is everybody happy?
Remember,you saw it here first! I do absolutely and sincerly condemn any brutality, rape, assault, or any force or threat of force against a wife, mistress, or girlfriend! I also condemn the abuse of the legal system by women to gain an advantage by false charges, accusations, or threats–which we all know the (un)fair sex is completely capable of, and even if they aren’t, their lawyers, or feminist lawyeresses, certainly are!
At any rate, you have this post to assure you that yes, I, David Meller, abjure, condemn, and denounce violence against women for any reason and under any circumstances! I also am aware of how the domestic relations and marital law–including prohibitions of rape, domestic violence, spousal abuse, and even sexual “harassment” which I support–has been shamelessly abused by feminists–and their lawyer(esses) since at least the 1960’s, and possibly since the early ’20s, in the USA.
I first got interested in the men’s rights movement because I felt like I was used as a tug of war rope by my parents when they were divorcing and I thought the father’s rights movement was against that. I was bitterly disappointed to find that actually they didn’t give a fuck about the child’s experience, they just wanted a firmer grip of the rope for men than women get.
Believe me, I hear you. My parents split when I was a pre-teen, and at the time, NO ONE gave primary custody to the father, EVER. My mother abused me mentally and emotionally for years – it even got physical sometimes, and she tried to attack my dad with a knife, but didn’t succeed, because he’s twice her weight, and is 9 inches taller. I found it absurd that, simply because the default parent = mother, I had to endure years of courtroom battles, testifying about both my parents, being prodded by social workers and psychiatrists, and having my grandmother’s home (where I lived at the time) nitpicked apart by a caseworker, all in the interest of proving that, no really, my dad was the more fit parent, Y chromosome or not. My mother’s behavior took a turn for the worse during that time, and she then began using religion to shame me, a terror I’m continuously working through. She has probably suffered lifelong mental illness (what type, I’ve no idea), and though she’s in remission now, I’m still very, very wary.
Because of this experience, I definitely support equal custody, child support, and alimony rights for men. I out-earn my wonderful man, and if we divorced, he would be able to take me to the poorhouse, pre-nup or not, so I definitely understand the financial fears certain well-off men have surrounding marriage, too. My personal brand of feminism is equality feminism, so I’m fighting for everyone equally.
Besides my rough childhood, I have endured several abusive romantic relationships as an adult, as well as a rape that came out of nowhere, when I was sleeping alone and fully clothed, by an acquaintance-friend I had no romantic interest in or involvement with. Despite the instances of abuse and assault I’ve endured, I don’t need or want sympathy. I just want people to recognize that others may be dealing with really deep emotional scars inflicted on them by others, that we’re trying to work through it as best we can, and that victim-blaming won’t help us.
I’m extroverted and can fake it really well. Most people have no idea about my past. They only find out when we become friends, and I either keep them at arm’s length, or they begin taking advantage of me and we mutually begin to resent each other. Or, if we hit it off, they learn that I’m a very anxious, panicked person. I’m working on all of this, too, but it’s not easy. One of our trolls, who says he has Asperger’s, attempted to shame me and another participant with anxiety on here, simply for being who we are and dealing with what we deal with as best we can. I have no tolerance for that kind of idiocy.
I love individual men and women. But I’m also very misanthropic, and with good reason. This blog is a great breath of fresh air, and interacting with the other posters gives me hope for the human race.