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antifeminism creepy douchebaggery evil women hypocrisy men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA threats violence against men/women

MRAs: Let’s bring back torture devices for women!

Actual 16th century Scottish "Scold's Bridle."

When you think they can’t get any creepier, they do. Here’s a disturbing new Men’s Rights meme-in-formation I’ve recently run across.

In a late-December rant about anti-porn feminist Gale Dines, the self-proclaimed “Male Renaissance Agitator” who calls himself Fidelbogen wrote:

In olden days of rough village justice she’d have gotten the scold’s bridle, or the the ducking stool, or the stocks. And quite right.

A couple of days later, regular A Voice for Men commenter DruidV, perhaps inspired by Fidebogen’s post, made a strikingly similar suggestion on that site:

I urge all Men here to have a look at wiki’s description of what was commonly known as a scold’s bridle, or the Branks. For whatever foolish reason, this item was done away with some time ago. This invention to end Men’s suffering, needs to be brought back into public acceptance and application, post haste, imo.

So let’s take a look at the Wikipedia page he linked to and see just what exactly this “Scold’s Bridle” was:

A scold’s bridle, sometimes called “the branks”, as well as “brank’s bridle” was a punishment device used primarily on women, as a form of torture and public humiliation.[1] It was an iron muzzle in an iron framework that enclosed the head. The bridle-bit (or curb-plate) was about 2 inches long and 1 inch broad, projected into the mouth and pressed down on top of the tongue[2]. The “curb-plate” was frequently studded with spikes, so that if the tongue moved, it inflicted pain and made speaking impossible.[3] Wives that were seen as witches, shrews and scolds, were forced to wear a brank’s bridle, which had been locked on the head of the woman and sometimes had a ring and chain attached to it so her husband could parade her around town and the town’s people could scold her and treat her with contempt; at times smearing excrement on her and beating her, sometimes to death.

Emphasis mine.

I will be charitable and assume that both Fidelbogen and DruidV were joking. That is, they don’t literally want to strap women’s heads into ghastly torture devices, smear them with shit and beat them to death. They just think that the very notion is hilarious.

Whether the suggestions were made seriously or not, they’re still pretty hateful. Given that Fidelbogen was recently taken aboard as a regular writer for A Voice for Men, and that DruidV’s comment on that site got mostly upvotes (and no criticism) from the regulars there, would it be fair to call A Voice for Men the “underbelly of a hate movement?”

I’m not sure why that particular phrase popped into my head, but somehow it seems all too appropriate.

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Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
8 years ago

I’m pretty sure I’d go more good talking to a rock here, but hey – I went to law school, we’re used to it. 🙂

So, Meller, some notes, from a real live “lawyeress”:

1.) Despite being a female person and also practicing law, I have NEVER handled a family law case. Ever. And the family law firm I refer clients to most often – male or female – consists entirely of men. Yes, women who practice family law do exist, but so do lots and lots of men practicing family law.

2.) Despite being a female person and also practicing law, I have also defended people accused of domestic violence. In criminal courts. Most of my personal docket were men accused of beating a wife/girlfriend/babymomma, but I defended more than one woman accused of beating on her husband/boyfriend/babydaddy, as well.

(Shocking news! I also defended a couple different men, and one woman, accused of beating a same-sex partner. Because domestic violence doesn’t depend on a difference between the sex of the partners to exist. OMG TRUE FACT!)

3.) I also worked as a prosecutor, where I prosecuted both men and women on domestic violence charges. Also in criminal courts. Contrary to popular belief, prosecutors don’t represent the victim in any case (which often frustrates victims) – they represent “the people” or “the state.”

Criminal courts have nothing to do with custody, just so we’re clear. For example, if I had a domestic violence defendant accused of beating up on his or her partner, and they had kids, and the defendant was convicted, the beaten-up-on partner could freely agree to go home with the convicted partner-beater and the kids, and there was NOTHING, as a prosecutor, that I could do about it (except refer the case to CPS to check up on the kids).

Which leads me to ask:

1.) When you say “a jury of their peers,” Meller, do you mean it in the way we currently mean it (6-12 yahoos picked mostly-at-random off the local voter rolls), or do you mean it in some more narrow sense (6-12 male yahoos unjustly accused of beating some female yahoo at some time because she wanted custody, or whatever)? Because the second one would render functionally useless every objective legal measure we have – including the one in many DV laws that requires the assault to be one that would put a “reasonable person” in fear of his/her safety. I’m just sayin.

2.) When you say that you want the penalties for DV to be equal to the penalties for simple assault, you do understand that the penalties for DV are often much more stringent, and that’s because DV makes the victim (man or woman, doesn’t matter) face danger IN THAT PERSON’S OWN HOME (and/or by someone that person is supposed to be able to trust), right?

I mean, you can probably avoid being punched by some drunk asshole in a bar simply by avoiding going to a bar, but if that drunk asshole is IN YOUR HOME (probably also his/her home, because this is domestic violence we’re talking about), the game changes. You’re LESS SAFE in the face of a DV than you are in the face of simple assault, because THAT IS HOW DV WORKS.

So: are you really advocating that we eliminate domestic violence as a separate offense, and how do you think that would benefit men who are beaten by their wives?

3.) You seem to be conflating criminal law (which handles criminal domestic violence violations) and family law (which handles divorce and custody). Is that intentional? In other words, do you really think criminal courts should be making custody decisions, or vice versa? If so, why?

I’m ever so curious to hear your answers. 😀

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
8 years ago

Also, this study may be relevant to this thread’s interests: http://ehe.osu.edu/news/2011/victims-sympathy-abusers.php

ithiliana
8 years ago

@Dani: Thank you for the lovely clear layout of these points.

And yeah, I’m fairly sure some of my pet rocks would be more receptive to listening to what you say than DKM (often affectionately (NOT) called Dunning-Kroeger Man by some of us).

But I really hope he tries to answer you.

(NWO will probably blow through and perform amusingly as well since he’s convinced that all it takes to put a man in jail is for a woman to cry at the police.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

“And yeah, I’m fairly sure some of my pet rocks would be more receptive to listening to what you say than DKM (often affectionately (NOT) called Dunning-Kroeger Man by some of us).”

I know you meant Dunning-Kruger, but that is such an awesome typo that I had to point it out. Now I’m imagining our friend Meller wandering through the aisles of a Kroeger’s, baffled by the sight of a modern grocery store. What are all these strange products in colorful packaging? Why are there so many differents kinds of cereal? They did not have this on his home planet. And then to add insult to injury he notices that there are WOMEN working there, the horrors.

ithiliana
8 years ago

CassandraSays: *ahahahaha* ROFLMFAO!

There can be amazing typos at times.

Isn’t there some specific game or something that involves trying to pick women at at grocery stores?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

“Isn’t there some specific game or something that involves trying to pick women at at grocery stores?”

Do the PUA dudes hang out in the produce aisle fondling the melons suggestively? Because that would be hilarious.

Amused
8 years ago

Do the PUA dudes hang out in the produce aisle fondling the melons suggestively? Because that would be hilarious.

But kinda gross. I wouldn’t want to buy those melons afterwards.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I would love to hear the melon-related negs. Something about relative size and firmness, I’d imagine.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

They certainly wouldn’t be standing near the zucchini. Wouldn’t want to make themselves look worse.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

I present Supermarket Game

Need to know
8 years ago

Or in DKM’s case, toy store game.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

That’s how he’ll end up in the news, mark my words. If you hear of an elderly man being arrested for fondling the Madame Alexander dolls in a children’s toy store while horrified kids look on, and he’s shrieking about the evil feminist mothers reporting him to the manager while being taken away, it’s Meller.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I did nominate him Most Likely to Get Arrested in a Doll Museum in our year end wrap-up!

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@Need To Know

Or in DKM’s case, toy store game.

So many creepy images for such a short sentence

Toysoldier
8 years ago

Futrelle, I know you do not consider your posts or Marcotte’s in any way mocking, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. However, you do support Marcotte’s comments about Ball. You did so in your post and in your comments, as did several of your commenters. I consider those comments mockery, and so do you, or you would if they were directed at women or feminists.

I am only pointing out your contradictory position. You chastise others for doing the very things you do on a regular basis. Trying to change the subject does not change that. As for moderating my comments, it is your blog.

Kyrie, you said that a feminist saying, “wow, the fact that you’re hurting is so offensive to me! what about my feelings?!” would never happen on this blog. It did, just about an hour after your post.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

That’s not exactly what I said, but never mind.

So… just about an hour about my post, I guess you mean this one?
And more specifically that:

I really feel for him and the abuse he’s suffered, as I would any abuse victim I encountered. But the fact that he seems to completely disregard female victims – unless their abuser was female – in the name of his own personal vendetta against women in general and feminists in particular is disappointing at best and infuriating/ offensive at worst.

If so, you’re terrible at reading since it say pretty much the opposite of what you think. I can only see compassion for your pain and anger for your behavior.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Kyrie: It’s that TS has an agenda, and an incredibly blinkered view of what counts as, “support”.

That, or he is dishonest as all fuck and knows precisely what he’s doing.

I’m of the opinion it’s the latter, because when he comes to a place like this; gets his ass handed to him; with direct quotations and links and evidence, he retires to other fora (or his blog) and repeats the same shit; as if no one had ever responded to him.

He does this repeatedly. So I stopped talking to him; because he is either incapable of understanding, or lies.

Sniper
Sniper
8 years ago

I know this is the least of Meller’s ravings but… lawyeresses? LAWYERESSES?

Pam
Pam
8 years ago

I know this is the least of Meller’s ravings but… lawyeresses? LAWYERESSES?

Yes, isn’t it just precious how he feels the need to add the diminutive suffix whenever he’s referring to females.

Molly Ren
8 years ago

Yes, isn’t it just precious how he feels the need to add the diminutive suffix whenever he’s referring to females.

“Man Boobz” seems to give him particular trouble. “Manboobzettes” is just clunky. 😛

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

I find “Manboobzettes” very cute. I don’t mind being called that.

Ponkz
Ponkz
8 years ago

I did have a long response typed out to TS but I lost it. What I most want to say is this.

The one thing that I have been lead to believe abuse victims face is the fear of accusations of being a liar, an attention seeker, making things up, etc. It’s definitely something I suffered from and still do, hence why it’s only in the last couple of years, since the age of 28, I’ve started to talk about what happened to me to my close friends and I still find myself slightly bracing for impact if I tell anyone about it, waiting for the accusations.

To have another abuse victim, someone who I naively thought would understand such feelings, use that against me and essentially accuse me of being all “What about my feelings?” and selfish despite the fact I had explicitly expressed sympathy for him, is really upsetting beyond words and I will now probably think twice before disclosing what happened to me to anyone else in future.

I also note you didn’t address me directly, TS, but whined to David about my post as if you expect me to be banned or silenced or something. I think that’s pretty cowardly.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Ponkz: You were just another took in the, ongoing, attempt by TS to try and portray ManBoobz (and feminism in general) as hating men. Any little thing he thinks shows some inconsistency between any two elements (even if they are completely different people, talking about completely different things) he will pretend is the intentional effort of one person to cover up another’s hypocrisy/hatred.

That anyone can say anything TS disagrees with, and not be shot down by every person who might have heard/seen it = oppression and scorn unmeasurable.

That’s his schtick.

Amused
8 years ago

I know this is the least of Meller’s ravings but… lawyeresses? LAWYERESSES?

Me, myself, personally, I prefer “litigatrix”.

Ponkz
Ponkz
8 years ago

Oh, I know, Pecunium. Lesson learned. I won’t bother engaging him in future. It’s clearly not worth my time or effort.

Like I mentioned, I tend to think well of everyone and that can lead to perhaps some naivety on my part sometimes (though I’m not completely stupid, I hasten to add!). I thought I could speak some sense to him because I had the naive idea that abuse victims would look out for and listen to one another and it’s disappointing to see how apparently wrong I am.

I didn’t really fully expect him to listen to me to be honest, but to find him wilfully misrepresenting me as a selfish attention seeker is beyond the pale. I’ll just ignore him in future and steer well clear of anything he posts in.

Toysoldier
8 years ago

Kyrie, let us quote Ponkz in full context:

I was sexually abused and raped as a child during the ages 8-10. It is only in recent years that I’ve started to talk about it and feel better about myself. I’ve suffered on and off with depression over the years and used to self-harm. I’m now in a place in my life where I’m a lot happier about myself and so feel more confident about speaking about it.

I say this because honestly TS makes me really angry. I really feel for him and the abuse he’s suffered, as I would any abuse victim I encountered. But the fact that he seems to completely disregard female victims – unless their abuser was female – in the name of his own personal vendetta against women in general and feminists in particular is disappointing at best and infuriating/ offensive at worst.

Hey, TS! I was raped too! By A MAN!!! I realise he was a bad man, so note that I’m not angry at men in general as a result of this! You cannot erase me or my experience, no matter how hard you try!

I’m a survivor too and honestly I have open arms for any fellow survivor no matter their who they are. But if my experience, what I went through, means fuck all to you because I’m female? In all seriousness, fuck you.

In short, Ponkz accused me of disregarding female victims solely because I talk about my experiences and those of other male survivors and then talking about how she feels about me doing something to her I did not do. I have gotten compassion before, so I know what it looks like. That was not it. Instead, it sounds remarkably like, “Wow, the fact that you’re hurting is so offensive to me! what about my feelings?!” You do not show compassion by attacking someone for talking about something you do not think is important, and you certainly do not do it by saying, “I feel for you, but…”

Toysoldier
8 years ago

Ponkz, you did not express sympathy. You attacked me personally and used my past to start it. I am quite used to feminists doing that, particularly when I write or say something they disagree with, so I am not offended, bothered, or surprised by your comments. However, just because I am not bothered by it does not mean I will tolerate it.

Since you stated that you are just starting to talk about your abuse, I assume you have not spoken to many abuse victims. Please allow me to offer some advice: before you say or write anything to abuse victim, ask how you would feel if that comment were directed at you. For instance, how would you feel if someone wrote your comments to me to you?

I did not “whine” to Manboobz. I responded to Kyrie’s comment that no feminist on this blog would ever write anything close to “Wow, the fact that you’re hurting is so offensive to me! what about my feelings?”, which you unfortunately did. I understand that you do not think you did that, however, having been on the receiving end of comments like that from feminists for almost a decade, I do not believe I am mistaken. To this point, if I were mistaken, I think you would have clarified your intent rather than claiming I called you selfish, saying that you will “think twice before disclosing,” or saying that you thought you could “speak some sense to” me.

You mentioned that you thought “abuse victims would look out for and listen to one another and it’s disappointing to see how apparently wrong I am.” I am disappointed that you never thought to apply that to yourself. Again, I hope that you will think about what you write to abuse victims before you write it and ask how you would feel is someone directed that at you.

And if you are in need of support or someone to talk to, might I suggest contacting RAINN. They have a list of local organizations that help female victims, and they may be able to help you find a support group or therapist in your area.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Being abused does not give you a free pass on being a jerk TS. And your erasing other people’s pain is being a jerk.

forweg
8 years ago

You know, Davey Boy, magnifying a few lines from exceptionally long suicide note and obsessing over them, let alone smearing others for merely posting said note, is caricaturization in the name of demonization. Mocking? Maybe.

forweg
8 years ago

“forweg: It doesn’t matter what percentage of the manifesto was given over to Ball’s advocacy of terrorism. Ball wrote the manifesto, and killed himself, in what he made very clear was an attempt to inspire others to commit terrorism. That was the point.”

No, Ball killed himself because the courts wouldn’t allow him to see his own children, regardless of whatever “terrorism” he attempted to inspire.

“The new AVfM theme song says of Ball: “His death will not go in vain.””

And it should not. Everyone should bear witness to what feminist governance brings about.

“If Elam does not support Ball’s call for terrorism, why does he have the manifesto up on his “activism” page?”

Because the words of a man who self-immolated himself in protest of our anti-male society is of historical importance, and should be available to be read by all, even if some of those words are uncomfortable.

“If Elam does not support Ball’s call for terrorism, why has he not publicly disavowed it in clear and unambiguous terms?”

There is nothing to suggest Elam supports Ball’s firebombing quotes expect for people who are looking to dig up dirt on Elam by cherry-picking a few lines out of a 50 paragraph document.

Paul Elam posting Thomas Ball’s suicide note does not equate to Paul Elam agreeing with everything in that note. Is that difficult to understand?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

How hard is it to say “I unequivocally refuse to support in anyway the idea that one should solve their issues with the currently American judicial system by blowing up any buildings or hurting anyone involved in it. If you have a problem with the system do something constructive like…”?

Seriously, how hard is it? It is not hard. I just wrote it. So your claim that Elam is not hunky dory with it is laughable at best.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

“The new AVfM theme song says of Ball: “His death will not go in vain.””

And it should not. Everyone should bear witness to what feminist governance brings about.

“If Elam does not support Ball’s call for terrorism, why does he have the manifesto up on his “activism” page?”

Because the words of a man who self-immolated himself in protest of our anti-male society is of historical importance, and should be available to be read by all, even if some of those words are uncomfortable.

Frankly, as far as Ball’s form of protest and the so-called “anti-male society” and “feminist governance,” listen. We are talking about a person who, according to his own words, hit a child out of anger, was removed from his home by the police because of this act, “didn’t lift a finger” to save his marriage, and owed no more than $3K in child support at the time of his death. Which he could have borrowed to pay off. In his own words. And then he wrapped that story up in an anti-government, anti-woman screed so that people like you would believe that he had some greater goal in mind.

GOD, I really feel bad for the guy that he chose an incredibly painful, horrible death, but you know what? That doesn’t mean that he was right or that he had no choice or that society is against men. It just means that MRAs like hearing an MRM message from a guy who wanted to be a big martyr. Surprise.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

That’s the thing about Ball. The judge in his case was correct – if someone hits their kids, it’s not unreasonable to deny them custody if another, non-child-hitting parent is available. These guys want to act like he was denied the ability to see his kids just because he had a penis, but nope, that’s not what actually happened.

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

The idea that speaking of the part of the text that clearly advocate terrorism is “cherry picking” is very funny.

katz
8 years ago

The cherrypicking defense is great: if you ever fail to quote something in its entirety, it’s possible that you’re leaving out the part that says “Oh, by the way, this is all a big joke and I actually think the exact opposite.” So all you have to do is write a rambling screed too long to be quoted in its entirety, and voila, you’re immune to criticism!

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

I was quoted on someone’s blog! My life is complete.

Leah
Leah
6 years ago

what…the…fuck have I just been reading? “scolds bridle”…fuck, I should’ve listened the warning before reading too many posts on this blog. Some people are really, really scary…

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