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Links: Jezebel on MRAs and American-woman-haters. Plus: a fan in Brazil!

This picture has nothing to do with the post, but, come on, it's fucking adorable!

Some links for Friday night:

Jezebel’s Anna North takes up the question “What Should You Do When Someone You Love Becomes a Men’s Rights Activist?”

North quotes me and Hugo Schwyzer on the topic. Here’s the extended remix of my remarks:

Unfortunately, in most cases, I don’t think it’s possible to talk someone out of a Men’s Rights obsession. For most of them, it seems to be driven not by facts — they’re happy to simply make up facts to fit their worldview — but by feelings, most obviously by rage at women. If they were driven by actual interest in issues, they probably would have accomplished something by now; in reality, only the overlapping but more politically focused Father’s Rights movement has actually had much of an effect on the real world, for better or worse. For most MRAs, the closest they come to activism is leaving angry comments everywhere online — or harassing individual women online in a manner similar to the ways abusers stalk the objects of their obsessions.

The one argument I think you can make to MRAs who are not too far gone is this: it’s not healthy for you to spend so much time stewing in your anger online. Instead of trying to help men work through their personal issues with women, the MRM encourages men to cultivate their rages and hatreds, to remain stuck. That’s not healthy for them, or for society at large.

North’s post was inspired by a recent Dear Prudence question on Slate from a girl whose dad had recently gone all MRA on her. (It’s here, scroll down a bit to the question that starts “Dad-Related Dilemma.:)

The guys at The Spearhead also had a whack at the Dear Prudence question here. Needless to say their perspective is a little different than mine or Hugo’s.

And while I’m doing links, here’s another misogyny-related post on Jezebel: Founder of Possible Sex Tourist Website Creates Elaborate Ad Campaign Telling Men to Beware of Marriage

It’s a lot of the same old shit we’ve seen before from marriage-hating MGTOWers and Western-women-haters. But entertaining nonetheless.

And last but not least: checking my traffic today I discovered that Man Boobz is big in Brazil! By which I mean, a professor at the Federal University of Ceará is a fan, and has started making fun of obnoxious Brazilian misogynists on her blog. Olá Lola!

As far as I can tell from the badly Google-translated version of her blog, the Brazilian versions of Man Boobz (Homens Idiotas?) are pretty much identical to our Man Boobz, right on down to their obsessions with alphas and betas and all that crap.

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Buttman
Buttman
9 years ago

First!

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Wow, Buttman, your contribution to the discourse is stunning, as usual.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@hellkell

Well, to be fair, I never would have known if he hadn’t told me. After all, doesn’t the public have the right to know? What’s that you say? They don’t care? …. oh

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

What was Buttman’s post? I only read the first dozen Spearhead comments.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

Would Slate dare call it an “ugly obsession” if a woman got her teeth knocked out by an abusive husband and then devoted herself to feminist causes or domestic violence prevention? Of course not. So why is it when a man gets a multi-decade financial raping because his wife decided to slut around with the kind of scumbag who fools around with married women with small children, and decides to do something about it, he is just a “bitter man” with an “ugly obsession?”

Notice the difference in language between these two examples.

Moewicus
Moewicus
9 years ago

RE: the marriage one— I’m pretty sure one of our trolls at manboobz copypasta’d that whole thing into the comments here and some of our delightful commenters tore into it beautifully. I am also pretty sure I’ve read the name Winston Wu before. If I recall correctly, he was a troll on the Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe forum and may also have been addressed on selfsame podcast (likely just to laugh at him). I’m not entirely sure, though, but it seems like this particular troll likes to hide under many Internet bridges.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

One is called beating the shit out of your wife, the other is called having an affair then having to pay child support for YOUR KID. Yea, that’s totally like rape /sarcasm.

Why can’t these fuckwits see the difference? yes, the wife is a jerk for having an affair. But guess what? it aint physical assault like getting the teeth knocked out by an abusive husband. That is ILLEGAL. Affairs aren’t and plenty of men have affairs too. Your child is still your child whom you owe to support. Assuming the “financial raping” is about child support, why not sue for custody? prove to the courts you’re a better parent. Although if the jackass thinks that having full custody doesn’t take more money and a hell of a lot more time and responsibility, then he’s an even bigger idiot than I thought.

I’m so glad these men don’t get married. They could care less about their kids and don’t even like women. What sane women would marry these pricks? Also if someone I knew was an MRA he’d be out of my life so fast.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

Also congrats on the fanbase in Brazil David! but you said the magic summoning words for MRAL- Hugo Schwyzer xD

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

Our friend Emma the Emo got pretty heavily down-voted on the Spearhead thread, despite her efforts to be sympathetic. So sad.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

Spearheaders don’t think women should be allowed to vote. I really doubt they like women expressing opinions of any kind.

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

crummy: The letter doesn’t say that he got a financial raping nor does it describe what happened in the custody agreement and if it was any custody/support agreement problems over the course of the divorce. He may very well have a right to be bitter.

But are you really comparing domestic abuse to a woman leaving for another man? Really?

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

Yeah, their misogyny is Pavlovian.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

@lj4:

I forgot to add quote marks to the first paragraph, so sorry for the confusion. I was quoting the Spearhead article

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

“Our friend Emma the Emo got pretty heavily down-voted on the Spearhead thread, despite her efforts to be sympathetic. So sad.”

Are we sure she’s not a sociology grad student doing research into responses to misogynist women?

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

Crumb was quoting W.F. Price, the Spearhead mod.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

@captain bathrobe

any comment on there from a woman is going to be downvoted, even if they agree with what Spearheaders are saying. Because it’s coming from a woman thus it must be wrong. LOGIC!

At least AVfM has some women writers contributing, which makes them a teeeeny tiny bit better. Emphasis on teeeeeny tiny.

Oh man, on the Jezebel article the first comment is from Marc Angelucci extolling the virtues of the MRM and how they are for TRUE equality. This is the same douchebag who sued women’s shelters for not allowing men in. Instead of pushing for shelters to be built for men. If men have to suffer, then EVERYONE has to suffer! LOGIC!

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

OHHHHHH! Sorry! 🙂

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

also what is Pavlovian?

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

Quackers: Men are allowed at women’s shelters. For some of the community service my fraternity chose to do, we helped out at a women’s shelter.

(I know you meant that they are not allowed to stay at the shelter. But I am guessing that guy Marc wouldn’t think of helping battered women. He probably thought they deserved it somehow.)

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

I remember reading W.F Price’s editorial for GMP in the fall. It told a sad story about how Price lost his wife and children in a messy divorce, including a bit where the wife “falsely” accused Price of threatening her, thus I suppose sparking his involvement in the MRM.

But I didn’t believe a word of it, given that Price runs a website where the average comment would make Ed Gein uneasy. It’s like listening to David Duke talk about how he was mugged by a black guy.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

@Cassandra

Are we sure she’s not a sociology grad student doing research into responses to misogynist women?

No, I think she just wants to be thought One Of The Good Ones. Unfortunately, the commentators on the Spearhead don’t believe in Good Ones.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Quackers

There’s a famous psych experiment by Pavlov showcasing behavioural conditioning where he trained dogs to salivate at the sound of a bell by making them associate the ringing of the bell with their feeding time

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

quackers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Short story, dog is fed food after ringing a bell multiple times. Ring a bell, the dog will think it is getting food and will drool.

Basically, if I am taking what crum said right, it is an unthinking response when they see anything that (for lack of a better word) triggers them.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

Pavlovian: reflexive, akin to Pavlov’s dogs salivating at the sound of a bell. See woman, hit down-vote. No thought involved.

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

I am sorry, captain said it, not crumbalievable.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

The Spearhead has a female contingent called Shieldmaidens, supposedly. You can read this hilarious letter addressed to them:

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/spearhead-forum-misandry.php?page=3

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

For the longest time I thought “contingent” meant “section” or “division” but I guess I was making that up. Oops.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@Crumbelievable

That letter’s fucken hysterical!! “Dear woman. I know you wish to be good to the men in your life. Unfortunately bitches ain’t shit. Soon men will destroy women’s skynet. Sincerely, Dickhead”:

Jawnita
Jawnita
9 years ago

Out of curiosity, what in the Dear Prudence letter implies that the sender is female? (I may be missing it.) I wonder if The Spearhead would have a different reaction to a male asker.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

“Dear woman. I know you want to help, but you and your kind are innately evil. So you may as well not even bother.

Wait, that’s not really going to help my cause, is it? Whoops.”

hotairgenerator
9 years ago

Crumbelievable:

con·tin·gent/kənˈtinjənt/
Adjective:
Subject to chance.
Noun:
A group of people united by some common feature, forming part of a larger group.

methinks you’re good 😀

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

@lj4adotcomdan

From all what I’ve gathered on this topic, I’ve heard that some shelters do accept men, while others don’t but will usually will give hotel vouchers to them so they have a place to stay away from the abuse. What I do not understand is why don’t they just get shelters built specifically for men if DV is a huge issue for them? feminists did it for women. MRAs love to talk about how men are the ones who built everything and get shit shit done while women just leech off of men, so why can’t they friggen lobby to get shelters up for men instead of trying to close ones down for women or leech from them? its absolutely infuriating and this is why I don’t consider them a legitimate movement that actually cares about men. I completely support shelters for men, I don’t support closing down shelters for women.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question about what Pavlovian means too. It’s basically like a kneejerk reaction…or shocking someone when they do something wrong so they associate the behavior with pain xD

@crumbelievable

once again I do not understand women who try to get validation from these freaks. Its akin to wearing a sign that says “please oh please tell me how horrible I am” maybe they are masochists.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

Ah, the old refrain of “come the Revolution, you bitches will be sorry! Just you wait!” It’s one of the MRM’s most predictable and tiresome.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

@Quackers

once again I do not understand women who try to get validation from these freaks. Its akin to wearing a sign that says “please oh please tell me how horrible I am” maybe they are masochists.

I’m reminded of the woman who married Ted Bundy before he was executed, though I don’t think even ol’ Ted was as dismissive of her as these guys are of their “shield maidens.”

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

you gotta love his arrogant “women are inferior and weak and men are needed to protect you” yet then they turn around and wank about all the horrible women out there beating the living shit out of their boyfriends or husbands.

Hey MRAs? fucking decide already! are women weak and too dumb to really hurt a man physically or not?

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

and I wish this so called revolution does happen. Regardless of the outcome at least we wont have to listen to them bitch anymore.

Buttman
Buttman
9 years ago

There are no shelters for men. There are no resources for abused or homeless men. All charities favour women because no one gives to charities for men. I posted a link to a story about men being excluded from food aid after the Haiti Earthquake and the trollops accused me of wanting to deny food to women.
Facts:
http://keddycsi.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/abandoning-men_-jill-gets-welfare.pdf

Lola
9 years ago

Hello, David! Nice to meet you. I’m your fan from Brazil. To tell you the truth, I’ve only recently discovered your blog. I’ve known the MRA movement in the States for much longer, at least since the creation of my blog, four years ago. Today my blog, I’m happy to say, is one of the most visited feminist blogs in Brazil. I think it was in 2009 that I was introduced to a kind of MRA movement in my country. They call themselves masculinists (which I shorten for comic effect to mascus), and they mostly copy the American bloggers, going as far as using the same terms (mangina, matrix, feminazi, gaystapo etc). There is one big difference, though. They follow a guru called Nessahan Alita (pseudonym, of course – they all use pseudonyms, usually superhero avatars). A few years back, Alita wrote a bunch of crap. It’s difficult to summarize what he said. I tried writing a post about it: http://escrevalolaescreva.blogspot.com/2011/12/essas-unioes-carmicas-sao-maior.html Bottom line is, a while later he disappeared. Nobody knows if he was making fun of those frustrated men or speaking seriously. Needless to say, mascus follow him like the bible. The rest is the same as always: misogynists who can’t really write very well. Naturally, some of them are more extremist than others. Last year in April we had an unusual attack in Rio. A young man went to the school were he used to be a student and killed ten girls and three boys. He was aiming at girls. There were some connections between him and masculinist groups, just as there were connections in the case of the Oslo shooter, George Sordini, and so many others. Some of these extremists have been sending me (and a few celebrities) some death threats. They started last year, when I began mocking them. I still think humor and irony are the best weapons to stop these groups from growing. Let’s keep in touch!

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

“I wonder if The Spearhead would have a different reaction to a male asker.”

They’d just call him a mangina.

lj4adotcomdan
9 years ago

Quackers: From what I have seen, it wouldn’t matter to them if men had a place to go to escape DV that was men’s only. The fact that the shelter is women’s only is enough to start the drool a drippin.

Explore Nature
9 years ago

Anti feminism is not actually women hatred. Because of feminism is not representing the femininity of women. Anti feminists are real progressive people, they can build up a successful society. Feminism can destroy well established cultures, but it cannot build up any culture.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 years ago

I think Explore Nature is my favourite new troll because of his drive-by word salad method of posting.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Yes yes, that’s nice. Now go make yourself a sandwich.

@CassandraSays

I think I may actually envy you your association with Ullere seeing as I have to deal with THIS shit.

I swear people, gender relations are pretty conservative in Sri Lanka, but nowhere near bad enough for this dude’s opinions to be common!!

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

Really? ‘Cause I’m pretty such entire subcultures have built up around feminism.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

@ Shadow

I’m really hoping that Ullere is from out in the Hebrides and his first language is Gaelic, because otherwise I am so embarrassed about the state of my nation’s school system.

ScrappyB
9 years ago

The letter doesn’t go into a lot of detail about why the wife left the husband other than it was for another man, but I like how the MRAssholes automatically assume it’s all 100% her fault. When is the husband at fault for divorce according to the MRAssholes? Never.

When the husband leaves the wife, it’s her fault because she’s either a frigid bitch and doesn’t satisfy him or she’s a harpy that drove him away with her nagging or repulsive weight gain.

When the wife leaves the husband, it’s her fault because she’s a slutty bitch who cheated on him and didn’t appreciate him because she just married him for his money. Even if she leaves because he’s a violent controlling jerk, it’s her fault for making him mad enough to set him off and abuse her.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

Umm..there are homeless shelters for men Buttman. Yes there needs to be more, especially DV shelters and I support those services. I don’t support taking away services from women just because MRAs don’t want to do the work and sit on the internet all day bashing feminism and women. Feminists were the ones who brought DV into the public light. Feminists did it themselves, so why can’t they? they have the bigger, rational and productive manly brains afterall!

@Lola

In Montreal in the 80s, a man named Mark Lepine killed a bunch of female engineering students. He said in his suicide note that feminism ruined his life and those women were taking future jobs from men. I have yet to see a self proclaimed feminist target and kill men simply for being male. And here is another self proclaimed anti-feminist condoning his actions http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/03/31/13429581-qmi.html

And before any MRAs come in and screech at me about Valerie Solanas, she did not shoot Warhol for feminist causes, she shot him because he lost her movie script and turned her away from The Factory- Warhol’s studio. I’m not saying it’s right, obviously she was nuts, but it wasn’t for feminist reasons.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

@ScrappyB

our good ol’ troll pal NWOSlave likes to pretend feminism is about man=bad, woman=good. It’s more like the opposite for MRAs. Man=good, woman=bad

Buttman
Buttman
9 years ago

@ScrappyB

The letter writer states that her mother left her father for another man. This grey area that you are inventing to bash the man does not exist.

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